Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

We really should also ask if it even matters whether this is intelligently designed or not. If we wake up from this reflection of consciousness that appears as an apparent world of beings and objects, are we likely to ask, uhhh, I wonder how all of that got there? Not likely we would even ask! Do we ask about how objects or others arise in dreams when we wake up?

So why would we ask these questions in the waking state once we wake up? We will see that all arising is only apparently arising, not actually arising as our Reality, as we now mistakenly believe this arising to be. Instead we see all arising as simply a reflection in the Reality that is Conscious Light Itself.

So the real question is, what is Reality? Not how did we get here, who made this, what was the plan, etc., because that is already based on various presumptions about existence that may or may not be true. Thus the conundrum of these kinds of arguments in terms of Creator God vs. Science, etc.

reply to post by bb23108

Just review page 19 again and then tell me that it doesn't inspire the least bit of awe and wonderment at the actual creation we inhabit in terms of how it got here how it was made what was the plan etc. a creation which is real and a good thing it's here too, because it's just so much better for there to be something than nothing at all.

I think you missed the point and failed to appreciate the sign and what it tell us and says about us and our relationship to the Light of Life, by reflection. The creation speak to us.

How could you miss it, or refuse to see it?

Remember this?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by NewAgeMan
And all arising is a modification of this Absolute Beauty, and such modifications demonstrate this Beauty to the degree that they truly reflect Reality's Perfect Light. This is why Spiritual Realizers look Beautiful to those who recognize the Divine Light.

I'm somewhat astonished that our exchange was evocative of this reply for reasons that we'll be exploring later on, and I mean that in a very good way. To me this signifies that I am on the right track and so are you, and so was a certain Realizer who saw the sign and who realized that it was pointing to him and his relationship with the Absolute Godhead (as the Eternal Light of Life). I will bring this quote of yours back to the fore at some point and then you'll see what I mean. Let me say this at this point. Our manifest outward reality contains an allegory for the Perfect Light you speak of, as a sign or symbol for a deeper truth, and it's the kind of thing that a mindless, unintended quantum flux/function would not be capable of generating.

Please be patient. There's a point of intersection where your argument and mine intersect believe it or not.

Wow, this is getting really interesting. Thank you bb for your participation!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

It's not that I missed it, the beauty of various aspects of this world are great - but still conditional and will die.

They are reflections in Consciousness, and yes, many of them are beautiful, but they change and disappear, just like all of us, and our beautiful loved ones. That is not an intelligent plan, but the price we pay for human bonding with another through love.

Only Reality or Truth appeases this pain, this sorrow, not beautiful objects of reflected Reality that may even keep us asleep, and at best can only inspire us to realize the Divine, the Perfect Conscious Light beyond all conditions but within which all conditions arise, change, and disappear.

Originally posted by bb23108
and at best can only inspire us to realize the Divine.

I think that's the point, the implication of which we are in partnership with the living God/Spirit of the Universe, Light of Life etc. and even moreso the very reflection of the eternal Godhead itself.

An allegory, told from the beginning of time - right in front of our very eyes, and some refuse to see it while others turn away. How sad.

reply to post by Druscilla


The Spirit of the Serpent of Death speaks through you.

reply to post by bb23108

You don't find it the least bit extraordinary?

Anyway, NAM, I do praise your efforts here, and much of what you posted as evidence is very inspiring! But such conditional awe-inspiring beauty does not in and of itself break the spell of sleep - only the Reality that transcends all this arising can, in our recognition of that very Truth.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes but this sign of wonder is about as transcendant of time and space as anyone could possibly imagine so it's evocative of awe and wonderment capable of lifting us out of the domain of a materialist monism and "thingness" of the world, to contemplate such things as the balance of night and day with the moon as midnight sun, and the allegory of a perfect reflection of the perfect light directed to nothing and no one other than man (ourselves) from the very origin of time and space itself as a reason and a purpose (for life) by intent (with awareness and understanding and by anticipation).

If you want out of time and space altogether you want in, to oblivion, don't you see how Buddhism taken to its "logical" extreme is nihilistic and terminal?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by bb23108

 

You don't find it the least bit extraordinary?

Appearance itself is extraordinary! And those matters you discussed even more so. But still it is all just "extra ordinary" - only reflections of Reality, not Reality Itself.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
If you want out of time and space altogether you want in, to oblivion, don't you see how Buddhism taken to its "logical" extreme is nihilistic and terminal?

You keep bringing up that Consciousness in and of Itself is nihilistic. This is not true, in fact Consciousness is the only Truth. All forms are simply reflections of Perfect Conscious Light, Beauty Itself. Reflections are created through various filtering, points of view, etc. and always as modifications of the Perfect Light Itself.

reply to post by bb23108

Yes but it's a sign, in our very midst of THE reflection itself. You still don't really get it I don't think because you don't like the idea of "God" speaking through the creation to the created, but it's a reminder you see of what you're talking about, so it validates you're position in the most astonishing and unexpected way.

reply to post by bb23108

If the unmanifest consciousness was worthwhile, then there wouldn't be anything to begin with. This dance, this play of light and life is the delight of consciousness so that it can have conscious experience in the first place. It's why we're here, to give form to the formless, and this design is so that the experience of life might be possible. It's not like some illusion to be avoided or negated but embraced and lived to the full even to overflowing. Life meets life in eternity, in eternal life. Nothing can hide out in the light - it must come forth in order for the light to be seen and made apparent.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I see that all forms arise in Light and so in that sense form does "speak" to me of the Divine, and this is inspiring. But always turn to the Light that all forms are a modification of, not just the forms themselves.

reply to post by bb23108

This is what we do when we see and draw near to the sign and inquire into it's deeper and intended meaning and significance. What's it saying to us? What does it mean? What does it symbolize? And you're right, but it still freaks me right out that it could have been encoded into the original creation with this experience of life in mind, and by anticipation.. and right here on Earth of all places.

reply to post by NewAgeMan
I agree with much of what you say, NAM, but you also make idealistic/romantic jumps that I don't agree with - especially when you presume that from Reality's "point of view" all of this ACTUALLY exists as we tend to believe it does.

In Reality, all of these forms are simply reflections of Conscious Light Itself, not separate, but also not ultimately Real. Now that is humorous!

reply to post by bb23108

What you are expressing isn't dissimilar to what Jesus was saying

When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

~ John 8:12

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Jesus is expressing the fundamental Reality of the Light Itself and to never forget that it is the Essence of all forms, not subservient to form. He was indicating that only believing in the reality of forms, is darkness, illusion.

Jesus clearly spoke in non-dual terms, that he and the Light are one, etc., but most people did not understand him.

reply to post by bb23108

And by following I think he meant to die to ego-self and become reborn to and in God which/who is the light of life.

So much got left out of the gospels including Jesus' deepest esoteric "inner circle" teachings, and of course once the cannon was laid down, the Church went on a seek and destroy mission against all "heresies" which would have included what might be called the 12 emanations of the Magi (disciples).

bump to current page - in case anyone missed it, especially those who label themselves as atheist

In Summary

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
There are two principal aspects of the argument I'm going to make (when time permits). The first will argue that the manifest reality, including consciousness (as a tangled hierarchy), has arisen as a result of an intelligent subtraction from, the absolute formless potential as a first/last cause or as a downward causation emanating from the Godhead aka Creative Agency, whereby the phenomenon of consciousness is not and cannot simply arise as an epiphenomenon of matter, and the second, to "join the circle" will aim to show a manifest example of superintelligent design embedded by anticipation and with intent, into the geometrical relationships and integers of our own earth-moon-sun system/configuration as a precursor to earth's evolutionary development including that of the human being as self aware observer, and even as a marker or a "sign" or signature intended for our own recognition, by the Creative Agency, but done in such a way that it cannot be dismissed either as pure coincidence or nullified as meaningless by the strong anthropic principal.

Just wanted to offer a head's up, out of fairness, due to the delay.

Best Regards,


NAM

Part 1) The Fully Informed Eternal Godhead

Part 2) Evidence of Superintelligent Design by Creative Agency in Earth-Moon-Sun Cosmological Configuration/Framework

I don't know why, but it's so funny!