Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Although I disagree, I don't believe you could know indeference without love and hate.

edit on 21-3-2013 by sacgamer25 because: (no reason given)

You have to Love Hate and Hate Love to reach true indifference; they cancel each other.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

I call it like I see it. Somehow evil is justified so it too must be from God. And anything from God must be necessary. Even if the only purpose is teach that thier is no wisdom apart from love.

You may be right I might not have thought this one out all the way through just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to argue in favor of it, it's more a solemn acceptance and forgiveness of the worst of the worst aspects of the human experience, that takes a lot of gall to pray for your own enemies, because people who are enemies of love are our enemies.

I'm just interested in where the rubber really meats the road with TORQUE and goes places far and wide, that's all because nothing less is sensible or reasonable or logical.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Yes because to God this is school and he is the teacher. We are safe here even when we don't know it.

So do you understand Hate is not real its a lesson against love. So it is real only because God makes it real. You see all of the things that arn't real are cast into the lake of fire. I guess that would only be after God pulls you out. HAHA

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Indifference?

There's a difference between being unconcerned for all the right reasons and being indifferent as in apathetic - how abhorrent!

You guys both must be kidding me - love and hate cancelling each other out in neutral "luke warm" blah..

You can count me right out of that nonsense - what spirit of inspiration are you listening to anyway?

How absurd!

reply to post by sacgamer25

It's just a possibility and one that doesn't make any sense in the final analysis nothing more.

Maybe you were tuned into a different VALIS channel on the day of the lessons on love and hatred..?

Hatred is all ego-based, so it's something, like weeds, that crop up along with the wheat, and yes God allows it because he allows freedom, which is the whole field.

You're saying that God is sovereign and is at some level responsible for everything transcending the duality, and that's due but he doesn't DEAL IN hate, he doesn't make it, only makes it possible and sow it grows up, but it always gets bundled and thrown away, and that's all we need know about it, is it's illusory nature and it's insanity and idiocy.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

You're saying that God is sovereign and is at some level responsible for everything transcending the duality, and that's due but he doesn't DEAL IN hate, he doesn't make it, only makes it possible and sow it grows up, but it always gets bundled and thrown away, and that's all we need know about it, is it's illusory nature and it's insanity and idiocy.

vethumanbeing's right about those typos I think..

Yes the enemy ran in and sowed the seed of hatred, enmity and strife and that enemy has something to do with our egoic nature and selfishness. It's not of God, but an enemy of God and man and I don't mean a personified devil either but something systemic that works in opposition to the ways of love.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Try to understand. When you get angry and you "choose" to remain angry, God sends you the spirit of hate. Something that wasn't there before you got angry. When you stare with lust at a woman God sends you the spirit of lust, Whatever sin it is that you do against love comes a spirit from God.

Or you can simply choose love, and only receive the spirit of love. You get to choose which spirit you live with.

Something Hilarious for you that I hope you can understand now. You can drive out demons I just taught you how.

When someone prays for an evil spirit, they may actually receive it, and because you know where the spirit comes from you know how to overcome it.

Does it all make since now?

Part 1) The Fully Informed Eternal Godhead

bump forward from page 11 - to stay on topic.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Not really because we also have the power of choice over our emotional body and subtler body levels, at least we're supposed to whereby only realized masters have true and complete control of their own feelings and emotional centers.

To each his own we all have our own interpretations.

By "Spirit" I'm talking about something that doesn't and cannot contain hatred and you'll notice that when you are in the space of love that there's nowhere to hold hatred, but when in hatred you might break down and start laughing at any given time, or let it go or intensify it - but it's not a spirit you're drawing in, just a pathetic little ball of ego-contraction not of God at all.

I have to disagree and you don't need to convince me it's ok to have differing viewpoints right.

Anger is pathetic and sad and comes from the ego - but love while it can also arise from the same place of hatred when it is dwelt in rises up to meet the spirit of God who is love itself and therein find the true place of joy for the whole self - anger and hatred just isn't part of this domain we're exploring, it's not there.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

You're saying that God is sovereign and is at some level responsible for everything transcending the duality, and that's due but he doesn't DEAL IN hate, he doesn't make it, only makes it possible and sow it grows up, but it always gets bundled and thrown away, and that's all we need know about it, is it's illusory nature and it's insanity and idiocy.

vethumanbeing's right about those typos I think..

Yes the enemy ran in and sowed the seed of hatred, enmity and strife and that enemy has something to do with our egoic nature and selfishness. It's not of God, but an enemy of God and man and I don't mean a personified devil either but something systemic that works in opposition to the ways of love.

Exactly, but we do have to realize we have free will. We did make those choices, we are to blame. This is why wisdom is only revealed to those who are willing to act on it. Wisdom in the wrong hands could lead one to believe he could become God.

What does Satan tempt Jesus with

You know God is love, Now throw yourself down, metaphorically into sin. Jesus says no the bible says don't temp the lord your God. Do you see how bad it would be to be entangled in sin when you knew the truth? There is nothing left to save you. Not that we can ever be perfect, but we can never let sin be the dominate player. We must constantly overcome even the slightest negative expressions, for the sake of others.

Turn these stones into bread. Turn the laws of the lord into food, profit. Do you see the problem with the church and how it too was created by him? They failed where Christ succeeded.
'
The answer man does not live by bread alone but the very word of God. Love, You cannot expect to sell love for profit.

I will give you the world if you bow down to me. The answer serve the lord your God with all your heart and mind. Serve love above even all the possessions of the world. With great wisdom comes great responsibility. But you only receive what you search for.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I know we disagree a little here. Just understand I am not suggesting that our ego isn't to blame. I am simply suggesting we don't fully understand our own emotions. Because God judges man on the emotional level.

reply to post by sacgamer25

All I'm saying really is that in spite of the appearances from the words and emotions we're talking about - love and hate, that hate isn't really loves opposite but instead that love is the basis of reason and logic or what is reasonable, and therefore is synonymous with the truth and life and Reality, whereas hatred is an ego-driven thing and is just plain brutal ignorance and even though there again I used to words "reason" and "ignorance" to describe these things, one is in a completely different domain from the other and never shall the two meet, nor compliment one another. Hatred and ignorance needs to be discarded, or at best made the brunt of ridicule, whereas love is all there is AS truth and reality itself. See the difference? The words are misleading. .

And while love is also a feeling real love is not just a feeling sense but a REASON.

Atheist lurkers, take note!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Indifference?
There's a difference between being unconcerned for all the right reasons and being indifferent as in apathetic - how abhorrent!
You guys both must be kidding me - love and hate cancelling each other out in neutral "luke warm" blah..
You can count me right out of that nonsense - what spirit of inspiration are you listening to anyway?
How absurd!

You would require a nicer word or phrase. How about non-consequencial, ineffectual, no bare-ing on anything material, nothing gained or lost, no force at all needed to transmute a non-event. None of these terms come close to apathy, THAT would be a total lack of interest. The whole point is to scrutinize the subjective layers that compose the thought that either conforms to; acknoweleges, or shouts NOT SO YOU reasoning. Unconcerned is a polite way of saying it though without killing the Source in the process. Inspired abhorrent thought is always a better way to reason than the milk sop drowning in antifreeze waiting for the quicksand survivor to pull you out. I classify both God and Human as Uninspired laymen/lackeys waiting for each other to do 'morally' the right thing.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
And while love is also a feeling real love is not just a feeling sense but a REASON.

Atheist lurkers, take note!

Love is a force of will. OUCH. That would bring Free Will into play again, my brainchild device the 5lb maul. Moral turpitude would be a 2x4x8 swinging on a pivot randomly.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Love is a force of will. OUCH. That would bring Free Will into play again, my brainchild device the 5lb maul. Moral turpitude would be a 2x4x8 swinging on a pivot randomly.

Uh...what??

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Redemption from ignorance and folly born of all manner of egioc structures and attachments that wreck havoc upon our fellow man and the world of man.

That is the nature of our vessels. You operate under the assumption that we must eliminate our flaws, when in fact we must learn to cooperate with our flaws. We must find purpose in all things or we will never be satisfied. Ultimate satisfaction is in making the best of anything and everything.

As to our part and obligation in this game - I don't have time to address that right now because I have to get my ass back to work. Will come back to you on that.

I'll be waiting.

You must admit that there must be something to be be done and choices to be made..

I just explained that.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I'll say this, that the evidence is all around us and right in front of our noses, and bb the light isn't UNmodified but modified in every conceivable manner in order to generate the means by which this experience we call life is possible, so it's infinitely modified. If unmodified it would just be a sea of uniform light without any differentiation or design and therefore no beauty to behold.

You explain it as though I already have a rudimentary understanding of what you're talking about. In order to understand you more completely, I'd rather start from the ground up to ensure there are no fallacies hidden in the folds of your theories. Could we do it that way, please?

"free will" with respect to God is an illusion.

The will itself contains no power of choice, the will is a tool of sorts which carries out the innermost desires and intents of the heart. It is a lackey to the the very nature of man. Now we do not always "will" to do what we desire, this is because external or internal forces can cause us to submit our "will" to the "will" of another.

You can see this when people submit to group think, or mob action, the influence of peers can cause them to engage in actions which they would not of their own volition engage in. The will then shows that it is not truly free, but is in bondage to fear, in this case the fear of being perceived as an "outcast".

If the Will was truly free, it could not be compelled by fear to do anything, but would listen only to the inner voice or the "spirit within" for direction. Any directive of the will which is compelled by fear can in no ways be considered "free", rather it acts under compulsion, or "bondage" as the scriptures describe it. Therefore there can be no freedom for man unless fear is completely removed from his inner being and even his external environment.

Fear is a direct fruit of "sin", or corruption, it is a result of mans "fallen state". Thus the will which is influenced under fear is considered a slave to one which it conforms.

It is under this understanding that the scriptures speak thus.
..........
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:34-36, ESV)
..........

And indeed Christ can set us free, to be truly free in age to come, to live with him in spirit and truth, free from fear and any possibility of corruption. Yet in this life, we are not considered free, but rather slaves either to sin which leads to death, or in righteousness which leads to life. Consider the following.

........
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:12-23, ESV)
.....

Thus the reality which we should accept is that our will is not "free" according to any moral relevance, but rather we are enslaved either to sin through fear which leads to death, or to righteousness, in love, according to Gods grace which leads to life.

Either slaves to sin, or slaves to God.

I find that any perspective which lays human "free will" as one of its core doctrines will inevitably become "human centered" in its conclusions. In other words, they often promote ideas which lean towards

Reality persisting primarily for the purpose of man demonstrating the power of his "will", the intentions of his heart to find his own fulfillment ect, that God created "for mans sake".
That man can of his own power "improve' and "transform" himself toward a better end.
God is at the mercy of man as to whether his purposes should be achieved.

Rather I perceive through study and careful observation that things are rather the other way around

Reality persists primarily for the purpose of God demonstrating the power of his will, according to his own intent for his own joy, for his own sake.
That only God can through his power, improve man and transform him toward a better end
That Man is at the mercy of God as to whether his purposes should be achieved.

Soul

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I wouldn't say "A" reason rather the "only" reason. I think we are real close to the love/hate thing so I feel good leaving it where it is. That last post cleared up your thinking for me.