Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

reply to post by SoulReaper


In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

When someone prays for an evil spirit, they may actually receive it, and because you know where the spirit comes from you know how to overcome it.

Does it all make since now?

Let the typos fly and abound makes for me a happy time.

reply to post by SoulReaper


I couldn't have said it better myself. Amen

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

Love is a force of will. OUCH. That would bring Free Will into play again, my brainchild device the 5lb maul. Moral turpitude would be a 2x4x8 swinging on a pivot randomly.

Uh...what??

Love can be the/a 'strong' force of will (if only truely understood and utilized); Love is the Law, Love Under Will. It is conduct code.

"The Law of Thelema"

"There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt." "This means that each of us stars is to move on our true orbit, as marked out by the nature of our position, the law of our growth, the impulse of our past experiences. All events are equally lawful-and every one necessary, in the long run-for all of us in theory; but in practice, only one act is lawful for each one of us at any given moment. Therefore Duty consists in determining to experience the right event from one moment of consciousness to another. Each action or motion is an act of Love and must be under will chosen so as to fulfil and not to thwart the true nature of the being concerned."

reply to post by vethumanbeing


No you see because "the law" mans law continues until all evolve past the need for any law. Because it would become unthinkable to hurt someone else. Maybe it's not possible but there is nothing preventing us from trying but ourselves. I am putting the choice in front of you now, so that too must be from God.

Can you give your will over to God? That is the question, the answer is love. Will you pursue love? Thier is no greater question that can be asked. It is the highest mountain, would you climb it with me even if you had to believe that it was all his will?


Or are we saying the same thing? Sometimes its hard to tell.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You are right, it took 2,000 thousand years for 10% of the world to understand truth. We have the evidence of evolution - 2 billion years ago were the fossils of the first forms of very simply living creatures. 1.8 billion years ago we have insectlike creatures, and so on. 4.5 billions years ago the earth was formed, is this science or religion? It is religion, because there is no way that the earth can be formed with a moon and solar system and have it come together through time. So surely it is possible for everything to exist, and finally we can see that those who know something say other things, and those who say things are just learning from the lies of others.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

No you see because "the law" mans law continues until all evolve past the need for any law. Because it would become unthinkable to hurt someone else. Maybe it's not possible but there is nothing preventing us from trying but ourselves. I am putting the choice in front of you now, so that too must be from God.
Can you give your will over to God? That is the question, the answer is love. Will you pursue love? Thier is no greater question that can be asked. It is the highest mountain, would you climb it with me even if you had to believe that it was all his will?
Or are we saying the same thing? Sometimes its hard to tell.

Mans law is Gods law, ITs morals ITs best intentions set down as to show a path of rightousness; preserving the best parts of humankind. This is not meant to envelope or control any aspect but the goodness; with great sincereity to cherish and nurture the innate brilliance or potencial of that creation. Can I give entirely my will over to God. Why yes is was done and there was quite the fight between us and ITs shennagans playful, ironic and satrical to convince me. This does not for me involve any love construct--so much as Basic TRUST. We say the same thing.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

was a message delivered to the occult prophet Aleister Crowley, from a being who called himself the great serpent.

This being knows the end of man "doing what he wills" and would like nothing more then to see man exercise his supposed "freedom".

This spirit also called men and women "stars"... hmm.. coincidence?

Soul

As far as I know or have learned, the only limitation or constraint on freedom is the ego of man, which fears the Spirit.

In spirit and truth ie: in God (consciousness), man is free to freely love as he is loved, to be creative and to really live. Only IN God as spirit and truth are we free, and even as we make choices (collapsing possibilities) all possibilities remain open to us.

From the POV of the liberated self, it is humorous to see anyone (his ego-self included) argue either for the supremecy of the will, or against the possibility of freedom, because the will isn't free unless and until it is harnessed to and conjoined with the Spirit, so it might go to great lengths to put forth an argument that precludes it's own liberation while offering up nothing but complaints with which to rail against God in whom is freedom itself. Oh the irony!

The ego has but one option really (aside from surrendering to the Spirit of reason) - the will to power, but what is power if not freedom? Freedom then is like a double-bind on the ego-self or the "strong man"

Oh God it's so funny!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

As far as I know or have learned, the only limitation or constraint on freedom is the ego of man, which fears the Spirit.

I beg to differ. The only constraint on freedom is the fear of having to make a hard choice and follow through with it. This is why we feel we need gods, so we can leave the harder stuff to them. I think we can be stronger than that though.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

P.S. By Spirit I am referring not to the seperative "independant" ego-self or who we think we are, but to consciousness itself which is a non-local phenomenon ie: which like the wind blows where it pleases (radically free).

To choose the self (as the hard choice), with all seriousness (absent humor) is like placing yourself in an eternal prison cell and throwing away the key.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Relative to the power and wisdom of God my strength is in my willingly confessed weakness, and therefore God and the Spirit of God is my power and my strength i.e.: not of my own self or self-will.

Anyway, good luck in your quest for strength and power apart from God as the all-in-all. Just don't get too strong or too serious, or you might end up in big trouble in the final analysis when all is said and done.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Relative to the power and wisdom of God my strength is in my willingly confessed weakness, and therefore God and the Spirit of God is my power and my strength i.e.: not of my own self or self-will.

Anyway, good luck in your quest for strength and power apart from God as the all-in-all. Just don't get too strong or too serious, or you might end up in big trouble in the final analysis when all is said and done.

You misunderstand. I strive for independence from "God" because independence leads to discovery. Discovery of what, exactly? Well...the divinity inside of us. Sand is aesthetically inferior to crystal, and yet you find little bits of crystal all throughout sand. We are aesthetically inferior to Source, but little bits of Source are littered all throughout us. When we break away from Source, we learn to tap into those bits and become an avatar of Source. And that's when we become our own gods. We don't need to serve Source, we just give the world what Source has given us. And in that way, we are sharing with Source as well.

That, in my eyes, is a truly healthy relationship with the cosmos and any higher powers that may exist. In that way, such independence gives us greater strength, greater vision, and greater understanding than a thousand years of groveling and sycophancy. Stand up and be the demigods we're meant to be, and we'll achieve something worth being proud of, something our grandchildren will sing about. And then they will emulate that example. Exponential improvement, because we finally took the initiative and made our own miracles.

That's what I'm talking about. And if your god can't appreciate that kind of dream, can't understand that kind of hope, then obviously he isn't who or what he says he is. It must be awfully lonely, sitting up there on that bitter throne amidst a barren room of arrogance and pride. He could use some company besides his mindless Golden Army, I'm sure.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I think the idea is to grow up IN God and reflect more and more of source, who's will is love in freedom.

You let your ego do the talking which contains embedded within itself the principal of rebellion, which in the final analysis is utterly absurd because there is only One God, One Spirit and One Condition.

Don't you see how funny it is?

It's a will that fears and opposes the freedom of the Spirit, and therefore continually asserts and reasserts it's will to power.

Devils are made from that type of egoic hardening of the self-will because they want to BE God apart from God as Source.

What you appear to have come up with is a grand excuse for the ego in the face of Spirit who quite obviously enjoys and celebrates unity in diversity and who loves and accepts us and reintegrates us.

Everything and the entire evolutionary process right across the board seeks reunion with God.

Separation is only an illusion.

The Godstuff inside is there so that we might find and be found in eternity whereby our native state is to be in communion WITH God, as partners.

What you describe sounds to me like a theft. However, if you're able to bring about a solid return on the investment and reap a harvest, that's not so bad I suppose, but at that point will you yourself want all the credit?

And do you have a plan for any future reintegration or is it separative independence all the way..?

What strikes me as unusual in your case is that you believe in the God you're separating yourself from and see in the myth of the fall an honorable and worthy pursuit analogous to the Declaration of Independence, but what you fail to recognize is that God's "Kingship" and dominion is one of love and sharing.

Oh God the irony and the potential for humor never ceases to amaze me.

P.S. And if there is some force or something at enmity with God and man, whether of the ego within or without (somewhere), it's principal motivator is one of jealousy towards man's position in the creation (as crown jewel) and so it's strategy is that of separation, anything to separate man from God (as Source) or to make of that an ideal and thus overturn the throne and establish a dominion of separation and of ego ("I am God"). It is extremely cunning and I'm sure is happy to tutor young up-and-comers - but it's an enemy of man and God, and would be more likely to dump you in the #ter as reward you for a job well done.

God as truth and life and love get's the last laugh at the devil's expense I need you to see that, and then to have the audacity to laugh at yourself and your quest for power and to be God and to recognize the lie at the heart of your strategy.

In God and with God is all power and strength, virtue, justice, and love, and when we are for God and he for us in Spirit, all things become possible, and all credit and rewards go precisely where they are due, with absolute fairness.

God's universe in case you didn't notice is based on fairness, and his throne of justice, truth and love can never be usurped, and that's a beautiful thing, that the highest standards are upheld and cannot be broken.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
And if your god can't appreciate that kind of dream, can't understand that kind of hope, then obviously he isn't who or what he says he is. It must be awfully lonely, sitting up there on that bitter throne amidst a barren room of arrogance and pride. He could use some company besides his mindless Golden Army, I'm sure.

Of course God loves dreamers and achievers and made us for a grand destiny we have only just begun to recognize.

I think you've got your ideas of God backwards my friend in a slick inversion, and that's the lie, the last lie of the evil one. The God you speak of is very lonely indeed and wants to make you his companion, but it is not the God of love and sharing who it pleased to share his eternal kingdom of light and love with all his children.


"God is spirit and truth" (Jesus, to the woman at the well).

P.S.S. By "throne" I meant highest of the high in terms of understanding and awareness, even cosmic consciousness, infinite love and light etc. i.e.: the invisible and indivisible eternal Godhead.

It is the throne from whom all blessings flow..

reply to post by NewAgeMan

You let your ego do the talking which contains embedded within itself the principal of rebellion, which in the final analysis is utterly absurd because there is only One God, One Spirit and One Condition.

The purpose is to experience, to find joy in creation and experience. How can we ever experience anything new if we are always clinging to Mother's skirt? I understand how you might see it as being absurd, but I see it as broadening our horizons.

It's a will that fears and opposes the freedom of the Spirit, and therefore continually asserts and reasserts it's will to power.

Fear? I fear the destruction of a machine that, in refusing to expand itself, consumes everything around it before collapsing in upon itself because it has destroyed everything which might have aided it in leaving the nest. I fear the failure of our species because our species is too afraid to make some hard decisions. We're doing everything we can to stay in place, instead of moving on. We are resisting the flow of the universe because we're afraid of what's around the corner.

I say no pain, no gain. You'll never run if you don't try to walk, scabbed knees and a concussion or no.

Devils are made from that type of egoic hardening of the self-will because they want to BE God apart from God as Source.

So you're saying that no matter what we make of ourselves, we must draw the line at some point and choose to be less? I don't agree with that. What's the point of having potential if we can't use it to further ourselves? Waht's wrong with being equal to "God"? Are we afraid of being that powerful? Do we not trust what we might do?

What you appear to have come up with is a grand excuse for the ego in the face of Spirit who quite obviously enjoys and celebrates unity in diversity and who loves and accepts us and reintegrates us.

It's not an excuse. It's a dream.

The Godstuff inside is there so that we might find and be found in eternity whereby our native state is to be in communion WITH God, as partners.

What you're talking about is always and forever being subservient. Whether or not we're pleased with such an arrangement - I know I wouldn't be - that's not a partnership.

What you describe sounds to me like a theft. However, if you're able to bring about a solid return on the investment and reap a harvest, that's not so bad I suppose, but at that point will you yourself want all the credit?

What would we be stealing, exactly? We would be using what we are given to become greater than we are. That's not theft, that's called growing up.

And do you have a plan for any future reintegration or is it separative independence all the way..?

What I have described thus far is just another method of reaching that reintegration point. I perceive it as being healthier than believing we are weak and always will be.

What strikes me as unusual in your case is that you believe in the God you're separating yourself from and see in the myth of the fall an honorable and worthy pursuit analogous to the Declaration of Independence, but what you fail to recognize is that God's "Kingship" and dominion is one of love and sharing.

No. I don't believe in any god. I am suggesting this as an alternative to those who do believe in a god.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Ah we're not so far apart, so long as you don't think "The Fall" is synonymous with the Declaration of Independence.


I think you missed the point i was making however about ego, separation and Source and are making a heap of assumptions just because I've quoted the NT a few times.

Ironically Jesus Christ himself represents the personification of an authentic prototypical model in terms of the potential of man, but where did his power come from if not through his relationship to the Absolute Godhead and in obedience to the will to love? In that case he became one with and wholly identified himself with the Spirit, as born from above like a "walk on"...

We can't project power from ego and the ego's lust for power, but with God anything's possible.

Are you a Satanist? I noticed one time you used the phrase "blessed be" which is satanist lingo.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Ah we're not so far apart, so long as you don't think "The Fall" is synonymous with the Declaration of Independence.

Something along those lines. Otherwise, he never would have put that tree there, and he never would have left it so unguarded, and that snake would never have gotten in. As Morpheus says:

"What happened, happened, and couldn't have happened any other way."

There's a distinctly deliberate taste about the whole thing.

Ironically Jesus Christ himself represents the personification of an authentic prototypical model in terms of the potential of man, but where did his power come from if not through his relationship to the Absolute Godhead and in obedience to the will to love? In that case he became one with and wholly identified himself with the Spirit, as born from above like a "walk on"...

Simple. He knew he could. Not to mention all those years he spent AWOL. Confidence and training can work wonders.

Are you a Satanist? I noticed one time you used the phrase "blessed be" which is satanist lingo.

Wiccan, which is not Satanic in the least. It's called nature worship, and it utilize the forces of nature to enact a Wiccan's will. Of course, most Wiccans only utilize the forces in order to harmonize with the earth, creating a sense of serenity within oneself. Their rituals and traditions have the same purpose as the Catholic mass and communion. They're just less conservative about it. If you want to have an intelligent conversation, you may want to do your research. Little slip-ups like that make you sound woefully Puritan and wholly uneducated.

As a brief aside, I wouldn't recommend bad mouthing the Satanists. At least they have the testicular fortitude to stand for their opinions, and they don't take their opinions from the mouths of pedophiles.

Just to clarify, by Spirit I am referring to the fully informed Spirit of infinite intelligence and creativity of the eternal Godhead.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Ah we're not so far apart, so long as you don't think "The Fall" is synonymous with the Declaration of Independence.

Something along those lines. Otherwise, he never would have put that tree there, and he never would have left it so unguarded, and that snake would never have gotten in.

I was referring to another mythical "fall", but in this case I think it was an allegory for the introduction of the duality of judgement from the wrong POV which, because doesn't transcend the duality, has the makings for a real predicament.