Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by NewAgeMan
And all arising is a modification of this Absolute Beauty, and such modifications demonstrate this Beauty to the degree that they truly reflect Reality's Perfect Light. This is why Spiritual Realizers look Beautiful to those who recognize the Divine Light.

I'm somewhat astonished that our exchange was evocative of this reply for reasons that we'll be exploring later on, and I mean that in a very good way. To me this signifies that I am on the right track and so are you, and so was a certain Realizer who saw the sign and who realized that it was pointing to him and his relationship with the Absolute Godhead (as the Eternal Light of Life). I will bring this quote of yours back to the fore at some point and then you'll see what I mean. Let me say this at this point. Our manifest outward reality contains an allegory for the Perfect Light you speak of, as a sign or symbol for a deeper truth, and it's the kind of thing that a mindless, unintended quantum flux/function would not be capable of generating.

Please be patient. There's a point of intersection where your argument and mine intersect believe it or not.

Wow, this is getting really interesting. Thank you bb for your participation!

It always amazes me how close most everyone is to the truth. Each of us seems to be able to come to the same conclusion even though we come to it through fantastically different paths and language. This is why I believe that with 7,000,000,000 people there must be 7,000,000,000 unique paths, that all somehow lead to the same point. Truly mind blowing is God.

Originally posted by bb23108
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

You are jumping to conclusions again that somehow I am assuming that what is arising cannot be beautiful. All that I am saying is that the Divine Conscious Light is The Beautiful Itself, Absolute Unmodified Beauty - beyond subject and object.

The arising however through subject/object appreciation/beholding is it's expression so that it can be seen and represented, right? In other words if there was nothing at all well then there's just nothing, no dance, no beauty, no romance, no love nor mutuality - now that's "boredom".

Some streams of Buddhism actually seek this out with the aim being to be and become quit literally an unconditioned nothing at all as if it's some sort of accomplishment!

I must admit that sometimes i have a hard time getting out of bed in the morning and that I've slept whole days away before, but I don't seek to go to sleep forever - what's the point of that?

]Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
So...by "final debate", did the OP mean "final rehash of a rehash"?

.

Final debate, meaning case closed. Whew what a relief finally.

To be fair we still have to show that an argument in favor of intelligent design or intentionality in the creation of the Creation, including our own, by a fully informed, infinitely intelligent eternal Godhead, is capable of blunting and rendering permanently obsolete, any counter-argument in favor of random coincidence "by accident", for it to be considered "case closed", but I think we might get there yet anything's possible and given enough time, actual.

Intelligent design is a major player if one believes the Universe is a conscious entity; I suppose that could be God or it could be intelligent design run amok. It is obvious something is at work here. I have considered the idea that machines can carry intellegence, minimal but in looking at robotic forms repetitive motion (automobile factory assembly lines) I cannot help but feel for them, why; because they are imbued with the will of their creator unbeknownst to their designer/creator and even if in the tiniest sense will have conciousness (not understood by science). Nothing is random although it may seem so. Hughes Aircraft designed a "randomizer" circuit chip to encode cyphers; not possible and yet they did it. Chaos theory is highly organized. Anything is possible if enough minds grapple with the questions and are able to reason the answers.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
It always amazes me how close most everyone is to the truth. Each of us seems to be able to come to the same conclusion even though we come to it through fantastically different paths and language. This is why I believe that with 7,000,000,000 people there must be 7,000,000,000 unique paths, that all somehow lead to the same point. Truly mind blowing is God.

My sincere hope and prayer, even though many are not in fact seeking or digging like we are, is that eventually the "truth" will come to one and all, which I can't fathom could come absent the humor of true understanding and thus come in the form of a joke of some kind at the expense of our own prior ignorance and absurdity, and that if we're to use the "table of God" analogy that it will be people to the right, all the way around (eventually) such that there will be no "goats to the left". Surely even Jesus, in spirit and truth can be persuaded to change his mind as the apex and resolution of the paradox of the karmic wheel..?

Some however cannot be moved to either tears or to humor, so I suppose for some people there's no hope, but I just can't accept that, because deep down almost every single one of us all want the same thing, the same peace, love, joy, happiness, satisfaction. The truly evil person is a very very rare bird and even they are surely just sick or deformed.

Anyway, I would like to hereby say, both to you'all and to God, that I take no pleasure in the idea of anyone being forever lost to God no matter who they are or what sickness ails them. We've all sinned and all have fallen short so we're all in need of God's mercy and forgiveness and if we don't have the capacity to love one and all then how can we really love anyone in particular, including ourselves?

And as to the criminal element, there's no vengeance in me, just sadness at the waste of human life where we consider that even the most hardened criminal was once the baby of a mother who loved him..

I tell you it's hilarious if/when we get fully present to the sadness of the predicament and absurdity of it all no matter how grave the circumstances, but that's another thread altogether and one almost assuredly filled with ignorant naysayers spouting seething hatred and heinous scenarios designed to separate us and to rob us of our humor and our capacity for an all-inclusive love capable of taking away the sins of the world, a thread I have no intention of starting, or participating in.

Best Regards,

NAM

P.S. I realize that was way off topic, but I felt the need to address the idea of every single one of the 7,000,000,000 finding truth, with not one lost in the fullness of time and history.

"Forgive them father for they know not what they do."
(Jesus, from the cross in relation to those and the egoic madness that put him there, although anticipated and double-bound with a boundless love)

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Intelligent design is a major player

But even I.D. would have a hard time hitting a baseball right OUT of "the park"..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Intelligent design is a major player

But even I.D. would have a hard time hitting a baseball right OUT of "the park"..

You would be surprised. If the player willed 'love force' to the ball before leaving the pitchers hand, the ball will actually do your bidding, "not so fast, right down the center or high outside", whatever is your best pitch to hit. I know someone that is working with doing this with objects, anyone can (but you have to be aware of it). This kind of thinking is so far out of box, but is true if you believe it; it possible. You might not hit it out of the park, but at least put a runner yourself on base and potencially in play.

reply to post by vethumanbeing


That's why the atheists are not commenting very much in this thread because they fear pitching me the perfect ball!

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by vethumanbeing

 

That's why the atheists are not commenting very much in this thread because they fear pitching me the perfect ball!

Call all atheists to arms (a bugle blows the notes); just have to get the arguments right before responding, anticipate any or all answers and have an adequate snappy retort to the questioners, or true believers of a God entity; even blithly called a 'force' of some kind works. The accidental/oops WHAT JUST HAPPENED creation of all that is; that is one arguement Id like to hear out.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by NewAgeMan

It always amazes me how close most everyone is to the truth. Each of us seems to be able to come to the same conclusion even though we come to it through fantastically different paths and language. This is why I believe that with 7,000,000,000 people there must be 7,000,000,000 unique paths, that all somehow lead to the same point. Truly mind blowing is God.

Its Job is to be us; we are IT. Cannot think Its too happy about it, but IT is in the business to learn (at our expense so the dissatisfaction is a MUTUALLY shared experience). More neurotransmitters in the human brain than there are objects in this Galaxy, (everything accidental and timed coincidence naturally).

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I also feel it, the true ones listen, and thats why they said is it like taking your cross up every day.

reply to post by greyer

Every day for how many 1000's of years?!

Honestly, we are only NOW at the point where the truth is beginning to be understood and appropriated or "grokked" and then it must also be lived and lived to the full even to overflowing.

Right now it's like there are TWO very distinct worlds/domains/realities, which really puts the pressure where it's needed.

But no goats to the left Lord please I beg of you, and not just because I could be one of them (as I do treat the least as equals).

There's an arrow in our midst, and a plow plowing the rich soil prepared from the time before time.

The genie is out of the strained glass bottle.

/prophetic rant over.

I meant stained glass bottle by the typo was appropriate.

In fact I think the bottle broke and with the genie (Spirit) busted out.

The failure of the Church however doesn't represent the failure of the Spirit to move us. Amen?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I meant stained glass bottle by the typo was appropriate.
In fact I think the bottle broke and with the genie (Spirit) busted out.

The failure of the Church however doesn't represent the failure of the Spirit to move us. Amen?

My typos are planned events (not by my concious self). Its supposed to happen, it adds a separate or layered meaning to your intended statement; at times downright strange in its focus (when it happens to me I roll with it, as I know something else is directing the thoughtform). No one seems to get this and treats it as a simple typo, NOT. It is your subconcious (higher self) speaking its mind right in front of your eyes.

The/ANY Church impeeds Spirit to move us all along by rote indoctrination, falsity and a bloated sense of Self Importance; oddly Egocentic self-satisfying and incapable of managing itself, as in above criticism even within its own ranks.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
My typos are planned events (not by my concious self). Its supposed to happen, it adds a separate or layered meaning to your intended statement; at times downright strange in its focus (when it happens to me I roll with it, as I know something else is directing the thoughtform). No one seems to get this and treats it as a simple typo, NOT. It is your subconcious (higher self) speaking its mind right in front of your eyes.

That would make for a great and humorous thread. Just be sure to type it out really fast to see if you can't pick up a few tidbits of unconscious wisdom while you're at it.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by NewAgeMan

It always amazes me how close most everyone is to the truth. Each of us seems to be able to come to the same conclusion even though we come to it through fantastically different paths and language. This is why I believe that with 7,000,000,000 people there must be 7,000,000,000 unique paths, that all somehow lead to the same point. Truly mind blowing is God.

Its Job is to be us; we are IT. Cannot think Its too happy about it, but IT is in the business to learn (at our expense so the dissatisfaction is a MUTUALLY shared experience). More neurotransmitters in the human brain than there are objects in this Galaxy, (everything accidental and timed coincidence naturally).

edit on 20-3-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)

I doubt you will believe me but here is how I get to this understanding.

You say it/God is learning at our expense but this simply can't be true.

Here is the best analogy I can think of to explain my life the last few years. Imagine your brain is hooked up to the supercomputer "GOD". I have been receiving a download of enormous magnitude for the past two years. I could fill a library with all of the information that has been given to me. It is because of this that I realize that I am definitely in the learner's seat and God is in control. Because quite honestly the world hasn't been around long enough that even an immortal man could have learned all the things of God in such short time.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Can you provide any verifiable information or data here in this thread capable of stumping the most cunning atheist?

Consider it a challenge. Ask God and report back. Thanks (I'm serious).

V.A.L.I.S.

You should change your name to Horselover Fat.

Not I'm not making fun, just pointing out the difficulty of the fundamental predicament we're in here in "the final debate"..

I would like to see a "stream" of your data though that would be very interesting I wish you'd grace this thread with your "transmission". I would also make a good basis for a new thread - "God's been teaching me stuff for the last two years - here's what I've learned" that kind of thing.

Personally I think it's essential that we maintain or develop I should say, an open mind - but not one divorced from reason and logic, but the thing is when our own fails us there's a spirit of intelligence that has one all it's own! It's funny! Very funny the humor of true understanding. It turns what was unreasonable or just plain stupid into an immaculate conception, and by being humorous it becomes the actual knowledge of personal experience and if it's gained at everything that was absurd and ridiculous by comparison then so be it.

Originally posted by sacgamer25
reply to post by NewAgeMan

Its Job is to be us; we are IT. Cannot think Its too happy about it, but IT is in the business to learn (at our expense so the dissatisfaction is a MUTUALLY shared experience). More neurotransmitters in the human brain than there are objects in this Galaxy, (everything accidental and timed coincidence naturally).

sacgamer
I doubt you will believe me but here is how I get to this understanding.
You say it/God is learning at our expense but this simply can't be true.
Here is the best analogy I can think of to explain my life the last few years. Imagine your brain is hooked up to the supercomputer "GOD". I have been receiving a download of enormous magnitude for the past two years. I could fill a library with all of the information that has been given to me. It is because of this that I realize that I am definitely in the learner's seat and God is in control. Because quite honestly the world hasn't been around long enough that even an immortal man could have learned all the things of God in such short time.

Oh but the most simple concepts are the trueist of all. Everyone looking at different outcomes or sourses thereof. God learns at our expense, it has never been totally in body. Cannot experience physical pain, emotion. It is aware that its failures in this respect have cost lives maimed destoyed civilizations. It is a two way street. God as human, Human as God. I understand the supercomputer, it is for me perfect in analogy. Switch the operator around, you are in the drivers seat, God is the learner (this is the TRUE scenario). Think of what has happened with technology in the last century. Mortal or immortal man can learn/GROK everything in an instantaneous blast of all/total knoweledge in the blink of an eye (it just needs to believe it is possible).

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Do you really believe that a highly intelligent creature could have any understanding of love without understanding evil?

We our born with minds that understand good and bad, right and wrong. We are born knowing that the loving solution is the best solution.

What we do not fully understand at birth is love and evil. These we learn and then we choose. I choose love. Therefore God is love, because love is the only logical concept for God.

He did not create us to be completely unaware of his presence, that is why we know love. Because he loved us even before we loved him. Everyone understands love and evil, now can we get rid of indifference because allowing evil is just as bad. Even our own judges will try a man for even just knowing of a crime.

You see all you have to do is "DO LOVE", if you don't know how turn to Jesus and do what he says. Doing what Jesus said is called "FAITH", saying I believe in Jesus is indifference. See the difference. God is calling us to be men of faith not men of indifference. He even promises that if we are acting in love no one can stand against us.

And if you still want to be a doomsday guy, he said he will save you from the 7 last plagues if you just do what he says.

reply to post by vethumanbeing

Yes but only when we can laugh along with God have we all learned our lesson.

God laughs and he makes me laugh by virtue of confounding me and then informing me of something that I'd never considered before for the life of me, like a secret joke shared from the domain of real knowledge and understanding, which involves simply being who we really ARE but without any pretense or prior ego-condition, just stupified at how stupid we are or WERE - thank GOD it wasn't too late! We were dead but are alive again, both to ourselves and to God within whom we are immersed. God is capable of informing us when at last we are still, open-minded, and willing and aware but not lacking in reason or logic. It's supra-rational or ultralogical - beyond reason in the humor of true understanding and recognition at the end of the ego's reason including even it's reason to live, in the face of this love and knowledge the ego throws itself forward into the loving arms of a forgiving God because he loves us AS and even WHO we are, even though we were just pretending to be somebody special for all the wrong reasons I'm pretty sure God gets that. lol:

So like I said before we have all eternity to worry about just who God really is (now that God is in the house - received and accepted) no the only question becomes - what do we do NOW?!

What do you do at the end of time from the unconditioned (absolutely forgiven unconditionally and thus reintegrated) ground of all being and becoming?

We love, and create with the desire to please ourselves and others - there's nothing else worth doing that's the funny part about it.

It has it's own reason, and logic and my God is it ever capable of vast amounts of ecstatic humor in the surrender of the egoic structures built on largely inauthentic fabrications for no reason at all, or even worse still because of a lack of self acceptance and self love - that's FUNNY!

He loved us first. Who cares! Now that we've finally found each other at last it doesn't matter any more, and I am sure grateful but without any sense of indebtedness (because it's absolutely free).

I grok! LOL!


It's a joke you see that contains imbedded within itself an onion of jokes, to the core, maybe even to the moon and back again.. but that in the end we must come to recognize if only for the enjoyment of getting to actually be ourselves again at last, and relax with all the pressure off.


God loves us, people.

He chose us.

Out of eternity, you are chosen.

And boy oh boy did we ever get it wrong, we screwed up, what can ya do no biggie in the end provided we find and then begin to explore the domain of freedom and liberation that God has had in mind for us all from the very beginning, which leaves neither God out, as the all in all self aware universe, nor any part thereof with ONE REALITY, ONE CONDITION, ONE GOD, ONE SPIRIT (sorry for yelling, but it was important to make clear lol).

In fact, the human being is or was supposed to be the very crown jewel in his creation!

Yes it's both very very sad and, very very funny (thank God!).

Luv,

NAM:

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Can you provide any verifiable information or data here in this thread capable of stumping the most cunning atheist?

Consider it a challenge. Ask God and report back. Thanks (I'm serious).

V.A.L.I.S.

You should change your name to Horselover Fat.

Not I'm not making fun, just pointing out the difficulty of the fundamental predicament we're in here in "the final debate"..

I would like to see a "stream" of your data though that would be very interesting I wish you'd grace this thread with your "transmission". I would also make a good basis for a new thread - "God's been teaching me stuff for the last two years - here's what I've learned" that kind of thing.

Personally I think it's essential that we maintain or develop I should say, an open mind - but not one divorced from reason and logic, but the thing is when our own fails us there's a spirit of intelligence that has one all it's own! It's funny! Very funny the humor of true understanding. It turns what was unreasonable or just plain stupid into an immaculate conception, and by being humorous it becomes the actual knowledge of personal experience and if it's gained at everything that was absurd and ridiculous by comparison then so be it.

edit on 20-3-2013 by NewAgeMan because: edit

DNA - I can't figure out why anyone is still debating. A self replicating, learning machine. The tech behind DNA is so far past us I don't blame people for believing in Aliens. But no God? Are you kidding me? I don't care if it is my god, your god, the great whatever, or even the great pumpkin, something created DNA. That little advance tech didn't show up randomly one day.

God's attributes and even his love are apparent to all men.