People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

Originally posted by beezzer

That desire to rely on society for basic needs instead of relying on yourself is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in.

edit on 8-3-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

It is the false dichotomy that leads to BS here. It is not an either or question.

Yes. Always rely on yourself for your basic...and every other...need.

But there will come a time, whether it be old age, sickness, personal economic disaster...when you will have to in some way rely on someone else or perish, and the premise of a "society" is that if everyone helps one another during those moments then we each live longer and accomplish more as individuals AND a society.

Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by Cabin

 

To the title: yup, go figure.

You can thank USA's war on Communism for that.
There's also the taint left over from another other Socialist regime that was in power in Germany during WWII.

Socialism, however, aint bad.
Anyone wants to yell about it can pull their children out of PUBLIC School, which is a very very very Socialist program.
They can also sign off to never ever ever dip into SOCIAL Security once they get old.

There's lots of socialist programs alive and well in the USA as well as other first world countries all over that make for excellent systems.

Typically, however, it's under-educated ignorance that brings about blind hatred toward such systems.

Public school (at least in the U.S.) is nothing to be proud of. If Public school is any reflection of the way a Government-run operation should be expected to look, the future is bleak. They ran the post office into the ground, they're running schools into the ground, the DMV is a nightmare (thank GOD for Tripple A) and nearly anything they touch turns to crap (Social security anyone?). You really want those corrupt, inept people to run more parts of your life?

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc


Yeah i hate also hate it when someone dictates that an unskilled job is only worth minimum wage. Who are they to decide that?

If the unskilled worker chooses to remain unskilled, then he/she can only demand what the market will bear in terms of salary.

It is their choice.

We can't determine authority over humanity based on emotions. We can't legislate based on emotions. People bemoan humanity suffering, based on emotions.

This thread alone I've been accused of being callous. Simply because I place life and all that it holds, on the shoulders of the individual.

Everyone has a choice. What we do with the result of that choice determines our own futures.

I dont think you can really use the word "choice" when they're pricing people out of education and such. I would argue however, that "authority" in these days would benefit from feeling other human emotions rather than just greed and selfishness.

You speak in very black and white terms Beezzer, which is great on paper but impractical in the real world - People dont have black and white lives, you know that.

And more to a point: Why should people spent their lives working when we are so technologically advanced? I cant actually believe that a 40hour week is still in place and accepted

Originally posted by MysterX
reply to post by Cabin

 

The solution is weed out corruption and to identify early signs of megalomania...quite how we do that is anyone's guess...it's supposed to happen already within most systems, yet we still see evidence of it around the world.

this sir is an exercise in futility...

"identify"?????...corruption is the trait of a compulsive LIAR...or a psychopath who truly believes his own madness....

there is no "weeding" that out...its permanent so long as we implement governments with a control, authority, and power structure.

Why are talking discussing the pros and cons of socialism in this thread?

Isn't it supposed to be about how so many people have been brainwashed against it?

Notice how discussing the pros and cons doesn't change their minds?

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by beezzer

That desire to rely on society for basic needs instead of relying on yourself is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in.

edit on 8-3-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

It is the false dichotomy that leads to BS here. It is not an either or question.

Yes. Always rely on yourself for your basic...and every other...need.

But there will come a time, whether it be old age, sickness, personal economic disaster...when you will have to in some way rely on someone else or perish, and the premise of a "society" is that if everyone helps one another during those moments then we each live longer and accomplish more as individuals AND a society.

edit on 8-3-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

Please. I rely on doctors for my leg. But I pay for that. I rely on my butcher for my ribeyes. But I provide the meat and still pay for it.

I rely on myself to provide the resources to enable me to live so long that it pisses off everyone!

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Yet tribes relied on individual contributions. The individual relied on the rewards based on those contributions.

Getting something for nothing?

A whole different kettle of fish.

Some people get something for nothing....and some people get very little for what they have given.

That is a debate worth having...to what extent the "social" safety nets work or don't work and how large or small they should be.

It is the absolutists that I find full of crap....whether it be true "Socialists" or the "damn all the safety nets"...drag the old people to the edge of the village to die crew,

The very nature of moving the debate to an either or scenario is BS IMO.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Indigo5

 

Yet tribes relied on individual contributions. The individual relied on the rewards based on those contributions.

Getting something for nothing?

A whole different kettle of fish.

Tribes relied on voluntary contributions through societal moras and not on forced confiscation as a socialist state does

Originally posted by beezzer

Please. I rely on doctors for my leg. But I pay for that. I rely on my butcher for my ribeyes. But I provide the meat and still pay for it.

I rely on myself to provide the resources to enable me to live so long that it pisses off everyone!

Knock on wood beez...I wish you a long and happy life and pray you are never visited by unforseen tragedies that befall other folks like cancer or natural disaster etc. It makes me smile that you might hum along without ever having to be in need of any kind...just to prove yourself right

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc


I dont think you can really use the word "choice" when they're pricing people out of education and such. I would argue however, that "authority" in these days would benefit from feeling other human emotions rather than just greed and selfishness.

Who cares what they think? As long as I can provide for me and mine, I'm cool.

You speak in very black and white terms Beezzer, which is great on paper but impractical in the real world - People dont have black and white lives, you know that.

Socialism is also great on paper. Just not practical in real life.

And more to a point: Why should people spent their lives working when we are so technologically advanced? I cant actually believe that a 40hour week is still in place and accepted

I agree.

Where's my fracking house with an ocean view?!!!

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by luciddream
reply to post by Cobaltic1978

 

Every dollar you make, someone is losing a dollar, however people think the money they gain has no influence on others.

Every dollar I earn is done in payment for goods or service.

I provide a service and someone pays me to perform that service.

If I provide a highly skilled service, then I can demand more for that service.

I get so angry when others try to dictate what I should have, what I "need" and what I deserve.

SELF-DETERMINATION

Yeah i hate also hate it when someone dictates that an unskilled job is only worth minimum wage. Who are they to decide that?

Interesting that someone brought up the concept of "minimum wage"....

A "socialist-like" program that needed to be put in place in order to get rid of slave labour brought on by capitalism.




The point is folks, 100% of any one "ism" in a country is a complete failure.

There needs to be a balance of a few "isms" to have a truly coherent society in order to maintain control of the playing field for all parties involved.

Finland is a perfect example of a country that's managed to find an equalibrium of taking a democratic society and adding a splash of both capitalism and socialism into the mix for the best of both worlds. The "yin and yang" if you may.

Why such a large population of Americans have allowed themselves to be brainwashed into believing this "all or nothing" mentality, I'll never understand.

All things in moderation is good.
All things to the extreme is bad.

You know why Communism collapsed in Czechoslovakia? The truth is it went bankrupt. All the Commies knew their power was coming to an end, because they knew the treasury was empty. People just took, took and took until there was nothing more to take. So, they turned over the keyes to a bankrupt nation and went away.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by beezzer

Please. I rely on doctors for my leg. But I pay for that. I rely on my butcher for my ribeyes. But I provide the meat and still pay for it.

I rely on myself to provide the resources to enable me to live so long that it pisses off everyone!

Knock on wood beez...I wish you a long and happy life and pray you are never visited by unforseen tragedies that befall other folks like cancer or natural disaster etc. It makes me smile that you might hum along without ever having to be in need of any kind...just to prove yourself right

One day, I will look forward to meeting God/god/Goddess/goddess/gods/Gods/Flying spag monster.

I'd like to know who was right.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by SearchLightsInc


Yeah i hate also hate it when someone dictates that an unskilled job is only worth minimum wage. Who are they to decide that?

If the unskilled worker chooses to remain unskilled, then he/she can only demand what the market will bear in terms of salary.

It is their choice.

We can't determine authority over humanity based on emotions. We can't legislate based on emotions. People bemoan humanity suffering, based on emotions.

This thread alone I've been accused of being callous. Simply because I place life and all that it holds, on the shoulders of the individual.

Everyone has a choice. What we do with the result of that choice determines our own futures.

You are not callous. You just do not see the big picture. As an individual I have impacted a group of individuals negatively to enrich myself and others. Some people make a living by being able to do this. they are the ones who decide what an unskilled worker gets payed and why they lay off workers instead of cutting bonuses to top tier execs/ceo.

At what point is one individual allowed to impact a group of individuals simply because they have no qualms making choices that screw other individuals over??

This is not only with pay but also with environmental and health issues. How many products have not been released into the public that can cause health issues only to flip a buck. An individual made that decision and it impacted a group of individuals. Didn't some drug company use HIV tainted vaccines?? was anyone held accountable??

There needs to be checks and balances to individuals. As some individuals are okay with doing unskilled work and having their home and family.. other individuals want to take that from them so they can have 20 mansions, a couple of yatchs and more money they can spend in a life time. So should many individuals be denied living their life so others can have a life of excess? NO

Should the individuals who want an excess life be denied theirs?? NO

They just need to find a way to do it without screwing others over.

And if they can't then maybe they were not meant to live that life.

Unless you think life is about screwing others over.

I really do not have a problem living in the current system. I am successful in it, however I am not blind as to how messed up it is.

Originally posted by butcherguy
reply to post by luciddream

 

Is it because of that our whole system is unbalanced and messed up? people WANTING more than they need?

There is the 'messed up' part of socialism.

Some bureaucrat decides what everyone needs.

Bye, bye freedom.

Not true, what's different about our times is that we have computers and networks that can monitor supply and demand at every level. We wouldn't need bureaucrats.

Originally posted by Indigo5

Originally posted by beezzer

That desire to rely on society for basic needs instead of relying on yourself is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in.

edit on 8-3-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

It is the false dichotomy that leads to BS here. It is not an either or question.

Yes. Always rely on yourself for your basic...and every other...need.

But there will come a time, whether it be old age, sickness, personal economic disaster...when you will have to in some way rely on someone else or perish, and the premise of a "society" is that if everyone helps one another during those moments then we each live longer and accomplish more as individuals AND a society.

edit on 8-3-2013 by Indigo5 because: (no reason given)

[/quote
And that is what the social mores of charity are all about.

Originally posted by votan


You are not callous. You just do not see the big picture. As an individual I have impacted a group of individuals negatively to enrich myself and others. Some people make a living by being able to do this. they are the ones who decide what an unskilled worker gets payed and why they lay off workers instead of cutting bonuses to top tier execs/ceo.

How does one who excels in their profession provide a negative impact on others?

There needs to be checks and balances to individuals.

But who determines what those checks and balances are?

Unless you think life is about screwing others over.

I actually tithe. It's a religious thing. Don't hate me for it. I work so I tithe money. My wife decided to tithe time and volunteers as an RN instead of demanding a salary.

I really do not have a problem living in the current system. I am successful in it, however I am not blind as to how messed up it is.

The system is imperfect because humans are imperfect. That won't change.

Keep it up...stand right where you are.

reply to post by beezzer


Doesnt take perfection to make a system a fairer playing field for all.

Wonder what would happen if they banned private education, where would our next set of leaders get educated?

Originally posted by MajorKarma

Keep it up...stand right where you are.

Are you suggesting that only socialism cause's war?

What about the capitalists that fuelled them?