People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

reply to post by Helious

Originally posted by Helious
I think it has become quite clear to a fair amount of people that most far left liberals are socialists. Obama is clearly a socialist and has pretty much admitted as much. I'll be the first to admit that capitalism has a lot of faults but that is true of any system and given a choice between what we have and socialism, I'll keep the current model although I would like some changes.

I don't think socialism is evil, I just know it would never work in America, because it has never worked anywhere else ultimately. Id be willing to bet that Barry is gonna be the last liberal president of the United States for a while anyway.

I would seem clear after reading this post that you did not read the other posts in the thread. So I'll give you a cliff notes:

a. socialism has never been tried
b. socialism does not involve being forced to purchase a product from for-profit companies.
c. most people who throw around the term socialism have no idea what it actually entails.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247

Eventually our governments and societies will return to a socialist system in which the value of the individual trumps the value of the State and personal profit.

Historically speaking govts do not tend to move in that direction for long...socialist govts as well as any other govt is subject to the "power corrupts, absolute power currupts absolutely" ... They may make noises, false starts and empty gestures towards valuing people more than state and profit but name one govt that has evolved into such, truly?

Karl Marx was a true believer...how long did it take the country that featured the rise of the proletariat to evolve into nothing more than a socialistic dictatorship?

The problem with any such system, however benign to begin with, lies with the leaders...they may start off with the "good of the people" (a phrase I always view with suspicion) at heart, but once they have power, they begin to become corrupted by that power....and without some kind of check, you wind up with a Stalin as your leader.

I am truly concerned with the US ... as the Executive Branch grabs more power, as Congress votes away more and more of our constitutional rights with the aid of the Supreme Court, we are gradually moving to a point where one day we will see a President abuse his power to a degree that would be unbelievable 40 years ago.

The patriot act is the largest authorization for the feds to take our rights away beyond any other means... all the feds have to do is declare you a terrorist and you are screwed totally...no rights whatsoever.

Now there is discussion where the Executive Branch seems to feel that is would be legal for drones to be used, on American soil, to take out American citizens...

Neither the CIA nor the military have the authorization to conduct their activities on American soil...so I suppose the FBI would be executing those drone strikes?

It wont happen with this presidency (likely) nor the next but soon...soon we will have a President stretching his powers so far beyond the constitutional that only a revolution will remove them.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Agreed. Socialism as an intellectual excercise works because it assume people are homogenious.

But people are not all the same....and socialism in practice always quickly spirals into corruption, tyranny and dictatorship. Horrific things have been done during socialist revolutions and what followed.

It doesn't mean socialism is ALL bad...no more than the misery that full Plutocracy inflicts on the people means capitalism is bad.

Each government is in reality a mixture. I think so far history has shown the best mix is something like 4 parts free-market capitalism and 1 part socialism...restraining the barrons from creating plutocracy...also in spaces that capitalism doesn't fix through the markets...like healthcare...disease doesn't respond to income levels and cancer doesn't care if you are emplyed etc. Also military...law enforcement etc. But free-market where ever possible, because competition leads to innovation and progress. A small dose of socialism allows for that economic competition not be a life and death struggle each time which becomes self-defeating fast.

Socialism, communism, whatever, these countries all end up the same way. Poor. Starving. Violent. Dangerous. All topped off with a big hearty helping of eventual collapse. On paper these sound great, but when you factor in human nature, greed, ect, it is just one big recipe for disaster. At least with a free market capitalist system we could work to benefit ourselves, and we could reach higher levels professionally based upon our own merit and work ethic and intelligence. I don't want to be some slave, some squeaky cog in the machine. I don't want to be told what to think and how to feel and what to wear and how to eat and protected from the big, scary, evil world. And that is why I oppose communism, socialism, marxism, whatever ism you want to call it.

Originally posted by beezzer

People don't need society. Society needs people.

What is your definition of basic human rights?

Food, Shelter, Healthcare, and Education should be a basic human right. And we have the ability to provide these things for all people.

So you live by yourself in the wildnerness then? I stand corrected, people like you do not need society. But most others do.

reply to post by beezzer


The military is one of the most socialist institutions in America!

If you live on post, practically all your basic needs are met via the military. Oh the irony.

Socialism is evil simply because of one fact that no one can dispute. Socialism must take from the fruits of the individuals labor. It takes what you have earned through your own hard work and ingenuity by force of law and redistributes it irregardless of whether or not you have chosen to participate. That is theft, and theft is evil. Forcing an individual to work involuntarily, even if it is only a fraction of his time for the benefit of others is slavery and that is evil.

reply to post by billy82269


That is not what socialism is. It just isn't.

Originally posted by Malynn


Food, Shelter, Healthcare, and Education should be a basic human right. And we have the ability to provide these things for all people.

Food. How much do we feed them? Do we use government guidelines? The Food Pyramid? Do we trust them to get the right dietary supplements?
Shelter. A FEMA trailer of a McMansion? I want a ranch with an ocean view. Gonna get it for me?
Healthcare. Yup. Obamacare, NHS, doing a bang-up job!
Education. Who determines the curriculum? The individual or the collective?

So you live by yourself in the wildnerness then?

Not yet. Pending.

I stand corrected, people like you do not need society. But most others do.

That desire to rely on society for basic needs instead of relying on yourself is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in.

Originally posted by yadda333
reply to post by beezzer

 

I did not use a straw man as my example was obvious for the sake of clarity. I've already addressed the fact that you have no free will as you are unconsciously interpellated by the Ideological State Apparatus (page 4).

A better question, which I thought I had included, is do we all have the ability to self determine? Of course not, and the reason is because capitalism does not benefit the whole of humanity.

So tell me, how does it benefit me to have my rightful wages seized from me and redistributed to someone else? The Socialist argument that it benefits everyone equally is completely bogus. It is as unfair as they say Capitalism is, only under Capitalism you at least have the right to try on your own and keep what you make. Any govt which taxes excessively is headed toward a Socialist system though, whether it is to pay for public schools or welfare benefits or foreign aid. In fact foreign aid is a form of Socialist redistribution of wealth from one country to another, and the reasoning behind it is bogus and totally unfair. Why is it my responsibility to feed people in the Congo or give military aid to Egypt when they hate our guts?

Originally posted by MystikMushroom
reply to post by beezzer

 

The military is one of the most socialist institutions in America!

If you live on post, practically all your basic needs are met via the military. Oh the irony.

I wonder how many military people just don't show up for work and still can garner all those basic needs.

Care to guess?

Originally posted by boymonkey74
I agree, look at the happiest people in the world and they live very well under some sort of socialism.
I find it odd that in a God fearing country like the USA they go against what Jesus says...the "screw you Jack Iam doing fine" attitude disgusts me.
In the UK we have social medicine and I would fight for that tooth and nail.

I came from a socialist country. I assure you, people there were not happy. That's why many ran and risked their lives to escape it.

reply to post by beezzer


Ooooooooooooh. I get it. It's not so much other people being provided for you have an issue with. It's not being provided the things you want. Things are much more clear now.

Originally posted by Malynn
reply to post by beezzer

 

Ooooooooooooh. I get it. It's not so much other people being provided for you have an issue with. It's not being provided the things you want. Things are much more clear now.

Wrong.

I provide for the things that I want. I just don't want to provide for the things YOU want.

Originally posted by Lucius Driftwood
reply to post by Jeremiah65

 

Should the taxpayer be allowed to determine what his taxes are spent on?
Suppose there is an annual spreadsheet of where the collective taxes of the country are spent and on what.
Think pie chart....education......%, defence....% healthcare/nhs.....% EU membership contributions....%, police....% energy, housing, etc, you name it.
Being from the UK, I am relatively certain that people would be more than happy to pay their taxes (even a tax increase,) if they could determine what their taxes were spent on. Overall figures would determine the things the country deems important and worth investing in.

That is true...we all want a say n where this dream is heading....I prefer puffy cllouds and unicorns over thunder clouds and raging minotaurs....

It is up to us individually to decide. We are SO guilty of passing the buck to the "general consensus" it is pathetic...just be a man...or woman...and stand the f*ck up for what you believe in...if you cannot do that and laugh at the ugly...you are a monster in disguise...fear and manipulation is the last thing you need....can you be a man?..can you be a woman?...can you do what is best without asking for approval? Prob not...we have a weak ass society of losers and whimps...

Not a real man among you that is capable of describing right from wrong without a f*cking dictionary

get used to it losers...you asked for the gov to take over....

Originally posted by beezzer


That desire to rely on society for basic needs instead of relying on yourself is one of the reasons we're in the mess we're in.

edit on 8-3-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

Disagree. "Societies" should be "Socialist" only as much as the most basic needs are met and not a drop more or less.

Since the begining of time we migrated in tribes and packs for "Socialist" reasons. If we got injured the tribe would care for us, and not just because the felt sorry for us, but because we were more valuable to them alive and able to contribute to the hunt again, or help defend the tribe. When we were too old to hunt the tribe cared for us and fed us, and not just because they took pity, but because our years of knowledge and wisdom were valuable to new generations..."tribal elders"...

It has always been a mixture of contributing all we can when we can...and leaning on the tribe when we are sick or weak....so that we might contribute again or in a new way.

From tribes, to villages, to nations humans have always used "socialism" to advance as a species....but again...a tribe where no one hunts, starves to death...so those that champion 100% socialism are as wrong as those that say all socialism is bad.

reply to post by Malynn

Socialism doesn't take from the fruits of the individuals labor irregardless of their consent and give to the collective? How are social programs in a socialist state paid for then?

reply to post by Indigo5


Yet tribes relied on individual contributions. The individual relied on the rewards based on those contributions.

Getting something for nothing?

A whole different kettle of fish.

reply to post by Cabin


I'm not entirely pro capitalist either and I'm pretty much completely over any and all forms of government that go past your local neighborhood.

Its easy to come in and say socialism didn't fail because it was never "true" socialism...obviously one would think there is a reason we haven't seen true socialism...its impractical and all who have tried it have failed because its a fantasy filled utopia.

I'm not being rude, Im not being crass I'm being straight forward no beating around the bush...

Try and implement socialism without force...I DARE YOU.

Socialism is no different than any other oppressive mechanism/government...forced contribution via taxes, consolidation of resources under the guise of "the people" or "society" so the individual becomes dis-empowered while the government becomes yet more and more powerful over the lives of everyone. It breeds dependence and slows progression to that of its weakest link.

Socialism is government on steroids. They take the world from individual people and grant it to society and the collective even though the reality is....were all individuals. Socialism tries to protect the people from themselves then collects a debt for that "service" and in turn in-debts the people and society to each-other...

I don't agree with any higher government to be honest with you and I don't agree with government at the barrel of a gun...the only form of government that has any legitimacy in my mind is a 100% voluntary one.

Socialism is defiantly NOT voluntary...


I hate having to use that damn meme all the time but THAT is how common "socialism" is brought up around here on ATS...

reply to post by Cabin


Hi Cabin, nice thread and post.

This section of your post said it all for me.

Historically socialism has not proved itself. All the countries that have tried it, have failed. Whether it would be China, Soviets, Cuba. The political system has turned out to be even more depressing on people than the capitalism. Although the truth is, the world has not seen a true left-wing country yet. Any wing of socialism has had nothing to do with equality or people. The communistic system (which is considered to be socialistic worldview) was rough and people meant nothing. That is not a left-wing policy, which should be people-based.

And you're absolutely correct in your assessment.

How i would sum it up is this; Political systems..ALL political systems, Capitalist, Communist, Leftist, Rightist all have, or are prone to having a similar achilles heel or fundamental reason for ultimate failure.

Human corruption.

In ANY system, there are those people who lust after power and control over others..even control over other peoples right to live or die.

They are usually ruthless, intoxicated with greed and gaining ever more control and increasing power for themselves and those who will maintain their position in power, so much so that everything else, including the people and the political systems they claim to represent, becomes secondary and ultimately crumbles.

The solution is weed out corruption and to identify early signs of megalomania...quite how we do that is anyone's guess...it's supposed to happen already within most systems, yet we still see evidence of it around the world.