People have been brainwashed to believe that socialism is evil...

Originally posted by robhines

But then again, I'm trying to speak in a thread where socialism, communism and fascism all seem to mean the same thing to so many posters, I don't really know why I'm still even trying.

edit on 10-3-2013 by robhines because: typo as usual

Well two of them are unreachable and that is why they end up with fascism...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by robhines

But then again, I'm trying to speak in a thread where socialism, communism and fascism all seem to mean the same thing to so many posters, I don't really know why I'm still even trying.

edit on 10-3-2013 by robhines because: typo as usual

Well two of them are unreachable and that is why they end up with fascism...

In our current state, yeah, it does seem pretty unreachable, agreed. But if we ever manage to evolve, if we somehow in the future had world peace, and started truly moving on as a species and rooted out the fascists and corrupt people, well, what we could be moving towards is a true type of communist-anarchist society. The thought of that scares the crap out of some people I know, but I don't think it sounds so bad at all if you spend some time to research what Marx meant by communism, and what the goals of anarchism are.

No states, no class warfare, no money. The only thing even I can't grasp is how you have no money and just work then go and get what you need. I can't fathom too well at the moment how that would work, but yeah, we're talking real utopian stuff I guess, maybe I should come back down to earth shortly and look at our current situation more, because I'm casting my mind out way too far into a future that I have no idea even exists.

Originally posted by robhines
Hmmm. Was going to leave this but after doing more research I can't.

Socialism caused millions of deaths = not such an easy thing to say.

You lost me here because this is simply not a valid argument. Capitialism, worldwide, has caused even more deaths. My stats on this are just as valid as yours and I know my are nonsense.

You do follow Marx pretty well and because I couldn't get past the above, I didn't see the conclusions you have come to. Marx is not the be-all and end-all of socialist thought - like all theories is a living and growing thing that needs interpretation in present context.

The Constitution of the USA is the same - it's a good set of rules and ideals but was never meant to me static and unchanging. The inflexable, dare I say, conservative interpretation of the Consistution is lacking any understanding of the simple fact that times, people and institutions change that require new guidelines and ideals.

Sorry, one more thing to add. From Professor Richard D. Wolff :

I am not going to shy away EVER on this program from talking about Marx and Marxism. The Cold War is over. The great enemy, the Soviet Union, is gone. There wasn’t much justification for ignoring and denying the importance of Marx, even when that wasn’t true, but now that we are basically 20 years out from our ‘Cold War struggle’ there is absolutely no justification. Marx was an important thinker in the world – the work he wrote and the items he put out have been influential in the world and no mature thinker can afford to ignore what that’s about. It’s not a question of agreeing with it. It’s a question of learning what has to be said by someone who is critical of the system.

Now to answer the question: Were there interpreters of Marx & Marxism who advocated violence? Yes. Were there interpreters of Marx & Marxism who worshipped the state in the way this quotation suggests? Yes. But here comes the problem dear friends – there were people who interpreted Marx to not be in favor of violence and to not worship the state. I, for example, as someone who has read Marx and takes Marxism very seriously and has benefited enormously in my understanding of what’s going on by virtue of that study, I don’t interpret Marx in that way at all. I don’t think he endorsed violence. I don’t think he worshiped the state. There is a reason, by the way, that Karl Marx never wrote a book or an article about the state. He didn’t worship it. That wasn’t his idea. His idea was that you have to change the economic system. You have to change the way the system works, not the way the government works. He saw the government more shaped by the system than the other way around. That’s where he focused himself.

thepeoplesrecord.com...

Originally posted by FyreByrd

You lost me here because this is simply not a valid argument. Capitialism, worldwide, has caused even more deaths. My stats on this are just as valid as yours and I know my are nonsense.

You do follow Marx pretty well and because I couldn't get past the above, I didn't see the conclusions you have come to.

Sorry I'm kind of lost with what you mean too. Can you explain a bit more please? I think the main problem is that it's late here now and I need sleep. Will try to respond later though.

It has been suggested I try another approach to reach more members about this B S about Socialism

Originally posted by robhines
No states, no class warfare, no money. The only thing even I can't grasp is how you have no money and just work then go and get what you need. I can't fathom too well at the moment how that would work, but yeah, we're talking real utopian stuff I guess, maybe I should come back down to earth shortly and look at our current situation more, because I'm casting my mind out way too far into a future that I have no idea even exists.

You never watched Star Trek?

reply to post by Xtrozero


Things can get rough in Communism but the nations you listed are not Communist but State Socialism. Cuba has move a bit closer to communism but they have also had to trade under very tight restrictions which are useless to have in place these days. Cuba has seen growth in recent years due to oil form the Bolivian Revolution in Venezuela. Cuba needs to trade and the US should allow them to trade a little more with US companies.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by Cabin

 

Op, your free to move to one of your socialist paradises any time, leave my country alone.

Nothing if free silly, nothing, everything comes with an associated cost, as it must be mined cultivated etc. People dont work for free.

How would giving people welfare for payless work ( known as slavery in most places) help anyone? What is the difference between joblow making barely enough to live on, and working for free for barely enougb to live on? At least he might be able to make somthing happen if he is very smart with his money, if ye has none, he has no hope of ever changing his life.

Communism will never work, or any idiotic lefty idea, as they all start from the most naive and ignorant world view possible, here watch I will show you what I mean.


If we gave every one a mansion and a ferrari, and as much food and drink as they needed, they woukdd all go to work for free everyday and do a great job.

Problem is, most wont, they will do just enough to keep their stuff and no more, it is simple logic, nobody is gonna break their back all day, when the guy next to themis slacking off. So one by one, even if they all started as perfect workers, they will get more and more kazy by the day, until the entire system collapses. Capitalism, though quite flawed, is the onky known system at present that rewards hard work, whike punishing lazy people, and thus leadingto hard workers making more, and worthless people making less.

In closing, communism reads like a mother goose story, where the good always get what they deserve, but this isnt the real world, and so, it is clever fiction and nothing more. Anyone who cant see that, ( this is you btw op) is either stupid, or mentally challenged, maybe even special olympics challenged, as it is quite obvious to 99 percent of people.

So either get educated, so your ignorance might be cured, or get insulted for being considered stupid by aa lot of folks, myself included.

No star and no flag, as I meantioned above, your quite ignorant about the real world, maybe even incurabky so.

Yeah man! Damn stinky hippie commies! Let's just let Wal Mart rule the world. After all they really reward their employees. They make $8 an hour! And may even get some medical care if we are feeling generous!

The rich are hard working and never exploit other people. The poor are just lazy, they can go f*ck themselves as far as I'm concerned. Let em eat cake!

Its been over a year since I last posted, so I apologize if my candor isn't ATS-appropriate, but I'll do my best.

The level of naivety on the subject of Socialism is pretty appalling. One could also argue that under capitalism, no country has ever succeeded either. No country will ever succeed in the long-term because humans are greedy bastards and that will always destroy any form of economy. We all want MORE MORE MORE. Eventually, it runs out.

Socialism, as a concept, is the most humanitarian, logical form of government we've ever conceived. However, it involves all of us working together and being decent people, which doesn't seem very possible. The concept of socialism only works if we use the qualities that distinguish us from beasts.. But at the end of the day, we aren't much better than any pack of wolves or flock of geese. We are self-obsessed neanderthals.

Originally posted by MotherMayEye
reply to post by Cabin

 

Socialism might be great if we could trust the criminals in our corrupt political system to spend one dime of our tax money wisely (or legally).

Capitalism could also be great if we could accept that it's a system based on competition. Therefore, there will be winners and losers. If we could accept that the losers are just as important to the health of our economic system as the winners, then perhaps we would make EDUCATION the top priority in this country. The more the losers are able to compete, the stronger the economy.

But, unfortunately, many short-sighted "socialist" voters have been convinced that throwing money and services at the losers is a good idea by our corrupt political leaders who just want to keep the populace dumbed-down and in a permanent cycle of socioeconomic and educational despair.

Both systems could be great...if the participants weren't so dumbed-down.

But if education is not a public commons than only the wealthy and privileged will be able to afford an education. This will cause inequality and nepotism to last for generations/centuries.

I think enterprise and socialism both have a place in the world. Too much or too little of either is bad.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Its been over a year since I last posted, so I apologize if my candor isn't ATS-appropriate, but I'll do my best.

The level of naivety on the subject of Socialism is pretty appalling. One could also argue that under capitalism, no country has ever succeeded either. No country will ever succeed in the long-term because humans are greedy bastards and that will always destroy any form of economy. We all want MORE MORE MORE. Eventually, it runs out.

Socialism, as a concept, is the most humanitarian, logical form of government we've ever conceived. However, it involves all of us working together and being decent people, which doesn't seem very possible. The concept of socialism only works if we use the qualities that distinguish us from beasts.. But at the end of the day, we aren't much better than any pack of wolves or flock of geese. We are self-obsessed neanderthals.

That's the thing, is at least with socialism people try. It actually works quite well in countries with smaller populations and less militant histories than the US. That's why I think it actually would be a good idea to split up the US as blasphemous as that sounds.

Capitalism is a cynical ideology that basically says "raping the planet is the best we can do, so we might as well not even try to improve". In other words Fukuyama's claim history ended in 1989 and that the American Congress and Walmart represent the highest possible state life in the Universe can ever hope to reach.

reply to post by flexy123


In America you get unemployment also so whats so bi g about that . How is it there in Germany now with the Austerity movement .
This is not the type of Socialism that the NWO /Agenda 21 is trying to put on us .
This trread is trying to condition you for that NWO Socialism and it is not going to be what you like .

I can't help but notice that a lot of people in favor of socialism on this thread have their actual picture as their avatar. I also can't help but notice that most of them look like they are pokemon card collectors or perhaps play world of warcraft in their mommy's basement. I don't know how you are going to force the US into some commie socialist system whenever you can barely run up a set of stairs without taking a break.

Originally posted by toolshed
I can't help but notice that a lot of people in favor of socialism on this thread have their actual picture as their avatar. I also can't help but notice that most of them look like they are pokemon card collectors or perhaps play world of warcraft in their mommy's basement. I don't know how you are going to force the US into some commie socialist system whenever you can barely run up a set of stairs without taking a break.

You're just making it look like you have no valid argument against the idea of socialism so you have to resort to ridicule. Oh and forcing is fascism.

Oh and divide and conquer! They managed it really well on this issue didn't they?

At the end of the day a system where we all try to look out for eachother is better than one that doesn't. If you don't understand that you should maybe learn to realise that everything in this reality is already connected, and the sooner we start to act on it the better.

Socialism to the upper classes is the end of their greed. That's probably why they invaded Russia in the 1920's to make sure it didn't succeed, and why they've conditioned us against it with the same type of passion that they've used to condition us against anarchy. In capitalism they can still be greedy, but not in true socialism because their upper class isn't there. It no longer exists.

Oh and all you Agenda 21/NWO people : no, socialism isn't a system they want to push, it's fascism disguised as socialism, just like Stalin managed once Lenin had died. And just like what Stalin did : it'll be very, very clear from the off to see that it's not socialism at all if they manage it.

I can assure you in the UK this is not the case, the educational establishment is festooned with socialists and from personal and anecdotal experience many teachers would have socialist leanings!

Originally posted by Credenceskynyrd
I can assure you in the UK this is not the case, the educational establishment is festooned with socialists and from personal and anecdotal experience many teachers would have socialist leanings!

Am from the UK too. Weirdly enough was just thinking about the Labour party and how they're supposed to be pretty much socialist. It's comical to think what they turned into by the time Blair had arrived. Typical example of fake socialism.

Originally posted by SantaClaus

Socialism, as a concept, is the most humanitarian, logical form of government we've ever conceived. However, it involves all of us working together and being decent people, which doesn't seem very possible. The concept of socialism only works if we use the qualities that distinguish us from beasts.. But at the end of the day, we aren't much better than any pack of wolves or flock of geese. We are self-obsessed neanderthals.

This is the bottom line. We cannot achieve the utopia that everyone wants. Quite a few countries have tried and have failed every time. Because of this we must seek a happy medium where some checks and balances get us back to a start as we drift off the path while never really reaching that utopia for any type of system.

Our forefathers were smarter than we think they were...Everything about the Constitution screams balance to keep us on the path. We are successful compared to the rest of the world because of this. ALL other systems end up out of control and far away from where they started from. If our system works right we drift left and right at times but always coming back to a centralized state. At times the Government might get to oppressive and at other time corporations will be oppressive, but the key is to correct back to center and we have those mechanisms in place as long as we don't mess with them.


Make no mistake, humans are the most vicious animal on the planet. It is something we just got to live with, it is something that got us this far as we dominated the planet in the past 5 million years, so don't expect it to go away anytime soon. Whatever you do plan on also plan on human nature being there too and if a system doesn't allow for humans to be humans to be successful then no matter how good the system looks on paper it is a failure we need to avoid.

Another thing.....

As much as I like the idea of true socialism and the marxian idea of progression minus the fascist leaders warping it, I don't think I agree with his ways of going about it.

He seems to think that the proletariat/working class at some point gain class consciousness (we seem to be at that stage around now more or less worldwide I think.) and then they rise up, have a revolution and take everything from the upper classes. I'm not sure if there's any mention of avoiding violence, the consequences of revolution when it turns ugly or anything else I don't think, and I just think we can do it in a smarter way.

I'm not for violence basically, and even though it's hard to see how it's possible to find equality when many of them have no problems with fascism, there has to be a myriad of ways that we can be smarter if we're going to be able to move forward and truly put this stuff behind us in the future.

So this is kind of like the same issues that Professor Richard Wolff was defending Marx against, but after looking at his Communist Manifesto a bit last night I'm really unsure that Marx was such a pacifist. Yes it comes down to interpretation and I don't like to judge, but just saying either way.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Beautifully stated. No system will work without the proper components. Unfortunately for us, those components are our fellow man.