Patriots don't secede

reply to post by HopSkipJump


So can you leave, as well. Having your cake and eating it is hard to do. If enough people say no more, then you view is trumped. Those numbers are growing daily. Surely you recognize this. It's not PR/prpaganda, this is not my fathers nation and a growing number want, a least some semblance of it back.

Your "progressive" is seen as the downslide of a great nation by others. Who is right or wrong will be irrelevant. The majority or more accurately, the more active, on many potential levels, will dictate who the treasonous ones were.

Still, our sharing of views is like no other nation on earth. Either way, change is happening and will continue.

Apparently, we both fear for this nation....

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

it is not that THEY leave. It is that the corrupt are left alone.

Who here thinks that if ANY state secedes that they would be alone?

How many, as it stands now would secede if any state did so?

12 states, 30? How many? I can guarantee you it would not be 1.

The point is to disqualify the federal government as being legitimate by it violating its contractual agreement established by the constitution.

I am not an advocate of such an action BTW. I dont even think its necessary. No state is legally forced to listen to a damned thing the government says. We can just NOT comply.

seceding is what might happen if the government tries to use force to make a state comply with its mandates.

non compliance is perfectly legal. BUT it is not an action of "ME" leaving, it is an action of removing legitimacy from "YOU". Land does not have wheels.

edit on 20-1-2013 by zedVSzardoz because: (no reason given)

I guarantee you it WOULD be 1. Only 1. that's all it would take. 1 state, most likely Texas, will decide they want to secede and will quickly learn the consequences. With the world wide web, the other states that want to act all "big and bad" would quickly see the results, the chaos, the issues that result and they will say "NO WAY!!!".

It IS an action of YOU leaving. It does absolutely nothing to who you're leaving, it doesn't remove legitimacy, it doesn't hurt them in any way other than the money they have to spend cleaning up your mess when you come crying to let you back in. YOU would be leaving. YOU would lose whatever rights and protections you have. YOU would lose a large population of people who don't want to leave the country, YOU would lose all federal assistance, YOU would lose any voice, any rights, any thing that you claim to hold valuable as a citizen. YOU will be subject to whatever government Texas decides to set up (if they are even capable of doing that). YOU will be responsible for defending your country of Texas if there is a war. There will be no US Military to protect you, they will be the ones attacking you.

You won't be changing anything for the United States, you will no longer be part of the United States. In fact, you won't even have all of Texas. You won't have the land, the land belongs to the United States. It will be divided with the new country of Texas keeping part of it and the rest remaining as part of the United States. Any person who is part of the seceding and lives on the American side will be forced out. You will not stay on American soil, you would be an illegal immigrant. You will be deported.

You are actually sitting there thinking that your empty threat won't be called. It may be called and you will pay the price. Don't make empty threats that you aren't willing to back up. You may not be happy with the result.

....and you'll also be a traitor.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


what you dont realize is that DC is the limit of the federal governments jurisdiction. It is ALLOWED to operate within state borders BY the respective state authorities. Hence why they can arrest a federal agent for trying to impose federal laws in their states that violate their own laws. There is a limit in each as to what can be legally done.

The state has its OWN CONSTITUTIONS that the US constitution mirrors. Not the other way around. Our rights and privileges would be fine.

I would like to see the federal government spend like its going out of style when the states stop sending tax money. If anything the federal government would go bankrupt in a week and come begging.

Most states dont need to spend trillions of dollars to cover up a few billion in lost funds to private bank accounts.

They would be fine.

AND no. If it was the way you describe as 1 lonely state, then 47 states would not be defying the federal governments ban on assault weapons.....the Federal government would be the minority. Like now.

They would be the federal government of NY, Hawaii, and Alaska.....

Originally posted by nwtrucker
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

So can you leave. Having your can and eating it is hard to do. If enough people say no more, then you view is trumped. Those numbers are growing daily. Surely you recognize this. It's not PR/prpaganda, this is not my fathers nation and a growing number want, a least some semblance of it back.

Your "progressive" is seen as the downslide of a great nation by others. Who is right or wrong will be irrelevant. The majority or more accurately, the more active, on many potential levels, will dictate who the treasonous ones were.

Still, our sharing of views is like no other nation on earth. Either way, change is happening and will continue.

Apparently, we both fear for this nation....

I have no desire to leave. I retain the rights and priveledges given to me by the US Constitution. I follow the laws set forth by my nation. If I disagree with a law, I work to change it. Until it is changed, I am required to follow it. I can choose to disobey that law and suffer whatever consequences result, but it's still the law. It may be that many people choose to disobey it along with me and together, we are able to have it changed without suffering, but it's not guaranteed.

I refuse to secede from my country just because my political side didn't win an election, that's childish, ignorant, cowardly and traitorous.

Change is happening and it will continue. If the change is in opposition to the Constitution, it is our responsibility to stand up and hold them accountable, not run away with our tails between our legs and secede because of it.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

The state has its OWN CONSTITUTIONS that the US constitution mirrors. Not the other way around.

No dear. The US was a nation before Texas was a state. LONG before Texas was a state. The US constitution doesn't mirror Texas Constitution, Texas copied the US constitution. If it leaves, it can stick with what it copied or it can make a new one. What makes you think the powers that be are going to let you keep all those "rights"?? They will make whatever constitution they want to make. You may not be happy with the result and you will have no choice whatsoever. They may not offer you the possibility of seceding, chances are, that's the first thing they'll remove.
It is COMPLETELY the other way around, you are seriously, seriously mistaken. Texas became a state in 1837, not 1776. In fact, the United States bought Texas, the United States owns the land. The people came together and became a state, when they secede, they can leave the land behind on their way out.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
What is a patriot?

Patriot: supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life.

So in summation...

Nazis were patriots.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz

AND no. If it was the way you describe as 1 lonely state, then 47 states would not be defying the federal governments ban on assault weapons.....the Federal government would be the minority. Like now.

there are 50 states, not 48 sweetie

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by WaterBottle

 

what you ignorantly call capitalism is in fact CORPORATISM.

Special interest groups representing a larger group they supposedly represent....

Corporatism is the main branch of capitalism! How many times does this need to be repeated???

Granted capitalism itself is not the problem if there are checks and balances. Lobbying itself is not the problem provided there are checks and balances. Big government itself is not the main problem but definitely wasteful and ineffective.

Without redistribution of wealth via taxation, not charities which is pathetic, the money is being hoarded UPWARDS by investors and remains there; hidden in private bank accounts to be reinvested IF the investor wants to unregulated.

The main problem as I see it is that we are being overworked, overtaxed, money is being burned for the continous expansion of the empire(which benefits a small minority at the expense of the majority), too many jobs are being shipped overseas, the welfare state cannot keep up anymore.

It is a complex problem and basically the perfect storm to take down america; the once great empire. If I was one of the mega rich illuminati, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD DO AND BE PATIENT!

Capitalism can work under certain parameters and it is a decent system which encourages freedom, motivation and economic growth. The problem is greed has taken over common sense and the politicians are spineless to do anything about it.

Originally posted by eNumbra

So in summation...

Nazis were patriots.

Yes, they were patriots to Germany, their country. They were enemies to us, the United States. The ones that left the country were traitors to their country, Germany. That's the way it works.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

there are 50 states, not 48 sweetie

I was referring to the states who are opposing the assault weapons executive orders (laws) By the WH and passing their own laws to guarantee their 2nd amendments rights....and I said 47...

Reading comprehension toots-

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by eNumbra

So in summation...

Nazis were patriots.

Yes, they were patriots to Germany, their country. They were enemies to us, the United States. The ones that left the country were traitors to their country, Germany. That's the way it works.

And that's why you're ignorant.

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

I was referring to the states who are opposing the assault weapons executive orders (laws) By the WH.

Reading comprehension toots-

Meh, who can tell with the way you write...

Originally posted by eNumbra

And that's why you're ignorant.

No dear, that's the way the terms work. You are a patriot to your own country when you support your own country. The Nazi's were patriots to Germany. That's the definition of the word. Do you not understand that?

reply to post by HopSkipJump


nice cop out.....

apparently you can not read english unless it is crap you can skim through to cherry pick and demonize someone not inline with your preferred agenda...




I am sorry next time I will include some pictures for you.....maybe a coloring section...

Wow...

"Patriot" is not a term that applies only to the United States. "Patriot" is applied to whatever country someone is a citizen of. If you are a citizen of Germany and you support your country, Germany, then you are a patriot to your country. If you are British and you support your country, you are a patriot to your country. If you are an American, and you support your country, you are a patriot to your country.

If you are a German and a patriot to your country, that doesn't mean you support the United States, it means you support Germany.

Seriously, a little bit of knowledge is required if you intend to communicate.

ETA: just for clarification. In the thread title:

Secede: withdraw formally: to make a formal withdrawal of membership from an organization, state, or alliance
Synonyms: break away, disaffiliate, break from, separate, withdraw, pull out, become independent, split

Succeed: intransitive verb achieve intention: to manage to do what is planned or attempted

In no way is it being said that Patriots will not succeed. It is imparative that Patriots do succeed, the real patriots anyway, however, those who are proposing to SECEDE will not SUCCEED and are not patriots.

I thought I was dealing with people who had a basic vocabulary, but with some of the responses, it's apparent that I am not.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

Now that doesn't mean that you necessarily support the current leaders or all the decisions that are made, but you DO support the government, afterall, the government is what defines a country.

In no way does a government consisting of financially well-to-do, never-struggled-in-their-lives politicians define a country. Remember, the U.S. government is 'supposed' to be the voice of the people. This government is supposed to reflect the thoughts and ideals of the majority.

A true patriot is one that stands up for these ideals, not for the government.

When the government taxes us right out of our paychecks,
When the government subjects us to cavity searches just to take a flight to grandma's house,
When the government takes away our weapons by which to defend ourselves AGAINST the government,
When the government sends our soldiers to die in another country without that country attacking us first,
When the government tells the dairy farmer that he can't sell whole milk to those that WANT to buy it,
When the government destroys the economy,

A true patriot will fight against this government.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


wow,

and each country has a different society and culture and so each form of patriotism has different connotations and societal requirements and norms to adhere to.

In the US it is some one who is loyal to state sovereignty. READ our own history.

It used to be a monarchist (loyalist) in the colonies for example......some one loyal to the crown and in service to the royal blood line.

In a a Muslim country it might just be someone loyal to the tenants of Islam. OR in old world India, someone who defends his caste from others.

ECT...

In the US we value state sovereignty.....

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by eNumbra

And that's why you're ignorant.

No dear, that's the way the terms work. You are a patriot to your own country when you support your own country. The Nazi's were patriots to Germany. That's the definition of the word. Do you not understand that?

supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life.

The Nazis changed Germany and its way of life. Supporting your country while it becomes a runaway totalitarian regime doesn't make you a patriot, it makes you a fool. In all your dictionary definition loving you seem to be missing the context in between the lines.

A patriot defends his or her country, politicians are not the country.

This is however completely ignoring the purview that what patch of dirt you were born on even matters.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz


Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Corporatism is capitalism, sorry.

All corporations are is a company (means of production) owned by more than one person (private ownership) with a profit motive.

It is actually directly in conflict with true capitalism.

Free market capitalism never will exist. And even if it did, it would be a complete hell hole corporate tyranny filed with sweat shops and 2 social classes... the extremely rich and extremely poor. Since there would be no environmental regulations, the rivers, soil, air would be polluted and gross. There'd be no safety regulations so people would be forced to work in unsafe conditions. There'd be no labor laws so child labor would be common place. If the workers would try to organize they would be shot down by private armies, which is what happened in the 1800's.

Just a really awful reality all around. You can see the affects in the history books and 3rd world countries when no worker,safety,environmental, etc. regulations are put on corporations. But even then free market capitalism didn't exist, because it never will and never can. Special interests are always going to influence the state. The people with the more money get special privileges because they can buy them.

Originally posted by jiggerj

In no way does a government consisting of financially well-to-do, never-struggled-in-their-lives politicians define a country. Remember, the U.S. government is 'supposed' to be the voice of the people. This government is supposed to reflect the thoughts and ideals of the majority.

A true patriot is one that stands up for these ideals, not for the government.

When the government taxes us right out of our paychecks,
When the government subjects us to cavity searches just to take a flight to grandma's house,
When the government takes away our weapons by which to defend ourselves AGAINST the government,
When the government sends our soldiers to die in another country without that country attacking us first,
When the government tells the dairy farmer that he can't sell whole milk to those that WANT to buy it,
When the government destroys the economy,

A true patriot will fight against this government.

Please read more closely. The government is NOT the political leaders, the political leaders are NOT the government. The government is the system set up by the Constitution by which the country shall be ran. Politicians fill the offices of the Government but are not, in and of themselves "the government".
I think that if you see it in that way that you will be in full agreement with me.
You are an intelligent man, you make good arguments, but I think you may have made an assumption that isn't true. If you take it in the spirit that it was intended, I am sure that you will be in full agreement.