Patriots don't secede

Originally posted by WaterBottle
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Your simple view of the problem as "were just gonna secede because our guy isnt in there" is indicative of the problem.......

If Romney was elected there would be no petitions to secede right now. You can pretend like this isn't true but it is. The petitions were created by a bunch of butthurt mainly southern right wingers.

I second this! If that douche romney was elected world war three would have started already. As bad as obama is, at least there is some sense of rationalism. Someone needs to chop the military industrial complex in half and tackle the black budget which is way out of control.

Someone also needs to start raising tariffs to doom this warped sense of elite controlled globalism. Too many jobs are leaving overseas because of cheap labor and because american companies can import their own stuff tariff free. It has been getting out of hand for decades now. The politicians are ignoring the big problems and focusing on the small problems.

You have to agree both the democrats and republicans are the epitomy of hypocrisy and I mean it!!!!!!

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
That would be the cowardly, traitorous way out. Plain and simple.

You seem to have pretty strong words for anything that could actually work. Quite hilarious.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Thanks for the response. I suppose we each have our own idea of that "line" and when it's crossed. in an earlier thread, "civil was, against who" I also pointed out that it would be fellow Americans that would suffer, not an "army" dedicated to destroy the Miltia. Although there is a strong belief/suspicion that a group is dedicated to that end.

I hold the opposite view on GW. If he "lied", then Hillory, Bill, Al Gore and a host of other democrates "lied" as well having said virtually verbatum the same things about Saddam, WMDs as Bush. I've seen the videos of them saying it. They flip-flopped for political expediency. the US gave Saddan the seeds for Anthrax and Chemical weapons to balance out the superior military forces of Iran in the 70's, also fact.

Regarding the Patriot Act, the right to privacy, which I hold in less esteem than the second amendment due to having nothing to hide, the law stated that US spy agencies were forbidden to spy on US citizens. From my understanding, the way around that law was for four countries, the US, Canada, Great Britian and to a lesser extent Australia would spy for each other. In other words, we'd ask Canada or GB to spy on a US citizen and they would send us the data and vise versa. Discreetly, of course.

At least now we aren't subject to alien alteration of information forewarded and have to some degree oversight where nonew existed previously to the Patriot Act.

I would also add, that Obama with a clear majority in both houses did nothing to cancel the Patriot act. In fact they expanded and extended it. So targetting Bush alone without blame to the dems is "onesided"..

In times of war, a nation doesn't do business as usual, Lincoln abolished Habeas Corpus, went into the senate and arrested sitting senators. In WWll, we'd "intitutionalize" potential security threats in psychiatric intitutions like Elizebeth, NJ. releasing them after the war when they'd dried out from all the chemicals we pumped into them.

The Patriot Act and damage it causes, is lessened by it's cancellation when it's no longer needed...if we stay viligent.

Regarding ceding from the Union. I believe that if the checks and balances don't work, then that is the proper route to go. Not a matter of treason, but of no longer agreeing with the Union and it's impositions. If you are correct that it's no longer a plurality of states, but a 'singular" then "divorce" is acceptable.

As a wise man once said, a federal gov't is like a campfire, useful when kept small and controlled, a monster when allowed to grow unchecked.

The Union is only workable BY AGREEMENT and willing participation, Once enforced it becomes oppression, the very thing the constitution was set up to prevent.

A state by state interpretation of the second amendment is opening the door to the break-up of the union. Failing to exercise the "right" to revolt, (part of the constitution) and peacefully dissolving the union is not treason but the exercise of free will by a free people.

Once again, I ask you, at what point would you say enough. Would you ever say it? Please answer this question as it would speak volumes of your beliefs. No criticism is intended in this question, merely curiousity.

Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by frazzle
Find me one government employee ~ just one, on this list of famous inventors.

Benjamin Franklin

Benjamin Franklin is famous for inventing the lightning rod and the accompanying anecdote of him having flown a kite in a storm in order to prove his hypothesis. He also invented bifocals, the Franklin stove, a carriage odometer, and also a musical instrument known as glass armonica. Franklin was a noted polymath, and was a central figure in early American politics; he was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States.

I would venture to say Ben was a government employee..given he was a founding father and all that.

Keep in mind, the greatest things of today was invented by the gub-ment..the internet, space flight (Apollo program), The national highway/railway system, Manhattan project..etc

Touche'. I stand corrected on Ben. However as long as the government has the US PATENT OFFICE they can determine which inventions are patented and by whom. I'm not saying that I know of a system that could not influence ideas and products but the one we have is ripe for abuse and it has been abused.

Originally posted by Observor

You seem to have pretty strong words for anything that could actually work. Quite hilarious.

The only thing it would accomplish is destroying the country that we have worked 237 years to build. The result would not be "better", it would be complete chaos. The people advocating it are short sighted and are doing so merely because they are upset that their party lost.
If Romney had won, we would have the same problems, if not more, but they'd be behind him 100% because he was from their political party. It's nothing but a political game and the people advocating it are being manipulated by those trying to manipulate them. They are not capable of thinking for themselves, they are only capable of doing what their idols tell them to do.

Think it through, do you honestly think it would be successful?? Seriously? There are two possible outcomes, the states that secedes goes for a while as an "independent country" until it is attacked by the Middle East, Mexico or some other sovereign nation and defeated, then we have to step in and reclaim our land. The second possiblity is they secede and there is a war between that independent state and the rest of the country, which they will lose because they will not have the might they think they will have. Many people will die, families will be torn apart and we'll have to step in and reclaim our land and spend billions of dollars cleaning up the mess.

It's not an answer, it's an additional problem. It won't build up anything, it will only tear apart.

The ONLY way you can see it as a success is if your goal is to completely destroy the nation with no hopes of recovery and leaving us at the mercy of whatever other country wants to attack. Sure, you'll be seen as a "patriot" by the Middle East country that takes over, or Russia, or China or Japan or whichever country it turns out to be, but you are a TRAITOR to the United States of America.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


America is attacking everyone!!

It is not the other way around.

We have too much money to burn for destroying countries and rebuilding them, AND NOT ENOUGH FOR AMERICANS that need jobs and social welfare.

DUH!!

reply to post by nwtrucker


The thing is, rising up against the government powers and seceding from the nation are two very different things. I would never, EVER support secession, ever. That is a traitorous and cowardly way out. It is breaking down the country, not standing up against corruption. The Constitution guarantees our right to stand up and say no. If we were to secede, we would no longer have that right, we would be enemy combatants, not citizens standing up for what is right. When you secede, you are no longer a citizen and you have no rights, no claims, nothing. You are no longer a citizen of the United States and you have no say in anything it does.

If you want to change it, you have to change it through the framework that is set up. I am not, in any way, saying it doesn't need to be changed, it most definitely does need to be changed. Many problems need to be corrected and many lines have been crossed. We do need to stand up, we do need to have our voices heard and we do need to follow the steps outlined to make the changes.

The states that want to secede are not doing that. They are saying they want to separate from the nation. They give up their citizenship, they give up their rights, they give up their say. They are not rebuilding anything, they are tearing down with no hopes of rebuilding in any way whatsoever. It is the first action of war, a war that cannot have a winner just as there was no true winner in the Civil War. Neither side really won, it divided our nation and took many, many years to even partially recover. It's not the answer, it only compounds the problem.

There are many things that I want to see changed as well as many things I want to prevent from happening and those things can only be accomplished by going through the framework set forth by the Constitution. Other methods don't correct the problems, the augment the problems, they create more problems.

If you are asking when I would stand up and say I want to secede, the answer is never. I refuse to leave my country and I refuse to allow my country become something else. I will work as much as I can, as long as I can to help correct the problems that exist from within the framework of the US Constitution. If I fail to do so, I will try again, and again, and again. If our government were to change from what it is, if the Constitution is thrown out, I would work tirelessly to reinstitute it, I would die in my fight, but I would fight anyway.

My country, the United States of America is based on the Constitution and I will fight until my dying day to ensure that it remains the United States of America based on the Constittution.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


I don't think you understand the point of "for the people by the people". The people created the federal government. Our founders had a few words to say about a rogue federal government.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Then what are you and I going to do to change that? Will our actions build the country up into something better or will our actions tear it apart and destroy it based on what some elected officials may be doing? That is the question. What are we going to do and what effect will those actions have?

Those wanting to secede will destroy it. They are traitors, the very definition of traitors. They are not patriots, that's not what a patriot is. They are being manipulated by others who want to destroy what stands and we cannot allow that to happen.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


So...you're saying to bet on the Ravens?

Originally posted by Heisenberg59
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

I don't think you understand the point of "for the people by the people". The people created the federal government. Our founders had a few words to say about a rogue federal government.

I don't think you understand the terms "patriot" and "traitor" if a state secedes, they are not patriots, they are traitors. They are leaving the people, they are not for the people or by the people, they are no longer counted in "the people".

If you want to change a rogue federal government (no idea why you didn't bother doing it 10 years ago, but oh well), then you need to do it as a citizen, not as a foreign country.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Who's to say that it would end up as a foreign nation? There is logic in secession to reform what was lost.

reply to post by jimmyx


I think the reason that it makes "O sense" is a lack of logic on your part. Your 'community" is a group. Just like a state is a group. That makes you "State orientated" just like the rest of us.

No one discounts helping the community. When helping the community is enforced by legislation, it's no longer "help". Your commune just became a enternment camp.

Would you force someone to remain in a commune that didn't want to be there? Of course not. Helping your neigbour is a tradition in this "nation" that goes back to the beginning.

Allowing those that don't agree with your views to go their separate ways is as humanistic as it gets. Certainly not traitorous or cowardly. A divorce...irreconcilable differences...

The best "commune" is the family unit. it is workable on a community basis as well. It starts to break down the larger it gets. When to the size of the US, it becomes oppressive to many. Your wishes shouldn't be enforced on others.

Therefore, if a state wishes your commune-like existence, cool!! If my state doesn't, also cool. YOU BUTT OUT.
None of your business...enforcing will turn you into a fascist.

This "nation" is so polarized, and since Conn., more so by leaps and bounds, that to avoid bloodshed, ceding may be the only rational solution.

Oh wow, I didn't know we can start threads with our definition of a word now. Has ATS become an online dictionary now? There's at least a hundred thousand English words today. A hundred thousand new threads here we go!

Sorry, that was in response to waterbottle...

Originally posted by balon0
Oh wow, I didn't know we can start threads with our definition of a word now. Has ATS become an online dictionary now? There's at least a hundred thousand English words today. A hundred thousand new threads here we go!

The definition comes from Webster's dictionary. Look it up.

Originally posted by Heisenberg59
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Who's to say that it would end up as a foreign nation? There is logic in secession to reform what was lost.

If you secede, you are no longer a part of the United States of America, you are a separate country, a foreign nation. That's what it means to secede.

I don't think the people that actually refer to themselves as "patriots" realize how few people are actually mad enough to take up arms against the government. Most Americans are not right wing fringe extremists. Most Americans do not belong to a militia or fantasize about being in some neo-revolutionary arms struggle. Most Americans are not trying to commit suicide by pulling a WACO.

They also do not seem to realize that the state government is not on their side. No state would seriously secede.. they love federal money, a lot of pockets are filled and your war cry is going to fall on deaf ears.

Originally posted by HopSkipJump

Originally posted by Heisenberg59
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Who's to say that it would end up as a foreign nation? There is logic in secession to reform what was lost.

If you secede, you are no longer a part of the United States of America, you are a separate country, a foreign nation. That's what it means to secede.

Did we not secede from Great Britain to retain what was lost? Not everything is black and white.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Actually a patriot is and i will quote Bing 1.supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life! This says nothing about supporting ones own government! I would like to know if you would be willing to support your government once they become tyrannical and oppressive to you? Once you found out that government has been taken over by a corporate fascist America and is working to serve the interests of only the minority of the top corporations? That corporatism has been controlling the two dominating parties and suppressing all others!
When Money becomes a controlling factor in the electoral, judiciary and legislative processes, democracy ceases to exist under the premise of all being created equally!
I fail to support leaders who fail to support the majority of persons residing in those districts, these men were elected to represent! I don't recognize their authority to change the constitution! I don't recognize the right
of a president to invoke executive privilage! I don't recognize the way lobbiest are writing our laws or the way think tanks figure out ways to manipulate the public! Therefore I no longer recognize America as a democracy
and i sure as hell don't see it as a country run by, of and for the people! If you want to believe in blindly supporting a government who you have no idea how it's being run, then that is your right to do so but you have no right to say that you are patriot for supporting these criminals while those of us that go against these facist are traitors to the republic! Also after being here less then a month you might want to slow your roll cause making such rash statements after so little time as a registered ATSer will make you seem trollish! Good day to you sir.