Patriots don't secede

reply to post by nwtrucker


The thing is, nobody is forced to remain in a state or in a nation. You are free to leave at any time. You can apply for citizenship in whatever country you choose. Nobody is forcing you to stay anywhere, so your example doesn't work.

You may not WANT to leave, but you CAN leave and nobody would stop you. It's not being done by force.

Originally posted by WaterBottle
I don't think the people that actually refer to themselves as "patriots" realize how few people are actually mad enough to take up arms against the government. Most Americans are not right wing fringe extremists. Most Americans do not belong to a militia or fantasize about being in some neo-revolutionary arms struggle. Most Americans are not trying to commit suicide by pulling a WACO.

They also do not seem to realize that the state government is not on their side. No state would seriously secede.. they love federal money, a lot of pockets are filled and your war cry is going to fall on deaf ears.

Very true. Those people are just being manipulated by the talking heads and riled up to keep their attention off other things. They don't realize they are the pawns that are making things worse, not better.

While no state would secede in reality, the threat of secession sends a clear message to the administration that the people are not happy with the decisions being made for them. It is a clear message that the citizens are getting fed up. In the literal sense the citizens know that it will not happen. The move should not be demonized but rather applauded. The citizens have a right to be heard. The threat of secession sends a clear and loud message about the path that we find ourselves on. Democrats have historically set America on the path to war throughout American history. 90% of the wars America have fought have been under a Democrat president and the war on Iraq was instigated by Democrats before Bush ever took office. Their screaming about Iraq's WMD's set the stage for that war. The current administration is setting America and the world up for another world war. The policy of appeasement has not worked nor could it ever work. Third world nations have no respect for weakness. They will do as they please when they see weak leadership in power.

Originally posted by Heisenberg59


Did we not secede from Great Britain to retain what was lost? Not everything is black and white.

When we seceded from Great Britan, we became a foreign nation. We were no longer British, we were Americans. We gave up our citizenship, we separated ourselves from that country and the Revolutionary War resulted.
We didn't change them, they still exist, they are still their own country, WE are a different country, a foreign country to them. We didn't retain anything, we left, we are no longer British.
If a state secedes, they are no longer Americans, they are not United States citizens, they have no say in what goes on in the United States, they are not retaining anything, they are giving up their citizenship.

Originally posted by nosacrificenofreedom
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Actually a patriot is and i will quote Bing 1.supporter of own country: a proud supporter or defender of his or her country and its way of life! .

If you look at the OP, that is the EXACT definition I gave for it was it not?

You just shot yourself in the foot.


one more time, Elected leaders are NOT the government, the government is NOT the elected leaders. Opposing the government is not the same thing as opposing the elected leaders.
"opposing the government" is opposing the US Constitution. If you are opposing the government you are a traitor. If you want to say that you oppose the elected officials, fine, say that. That's not traitorous. When you say you oppose the government (The US Constitution), then you are a traitor. When you say you want to secede, you are a traitor. We were traitors to Great Britan. We seceded from their rule, we formed our own country, a government, based on the Constitution. If you oppose that, then you are a traitor to the United States of America.

You can oppose the President all you want, you can oppose the Governor all you want, you can oppose the mayor all you want, but when you oppose the Government (the US Constitution), you are a traitor.

I LOVE what this Country was once about. I believe Libertarians are the last "true" Americans, and the last true Patriots. I myself am a Libertarian.

I absolutely loathe everything this country has become in it's foreign policy, it's disgusting amount of blatant private-public sector collusion, the steady erosion of civil and personal liberty, etc. etc., but I would die without hesitation to protect this country, in the hopes that it would one day return to it's former glory.

For those reasons, I would call myself a patriot, even though I have absolutely zero trust in the current iteration of Government.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


That's not really the point I was trying to make though, but you are correct. I was trying to say that there is logic in seceding to recreate a Government that has obviously been taken over by foreign interests and corrupt banks. There is a difference between a state seceding to create it's own nation and states seceding to reform what our founders originally intended.

Originally posted by jimmiec
While no state would secede in reality, the threat of secession sends a clear message to the administration that the people are not happy with the decisions being made for them. It is a clear message that the citizens are getting fed up. In the literal sense the citizens know that it will not happen. The move should not be demonized but rather applauded. The citizens have a right to be heard. The threat of secession sends a clear and loud message about the path that we find ourselves on. Democrats have historically set America on the path to war throughout American history. 90% of the wars America have fought have been under a Democrat president and the war on Iraq was instigated by Democrats before Bush ever took office. Their screaming about Iraq's WMD's set the stage for that war. The current administration is setting America and the world up for another world war. The policy of appeasement has not worked nor could it ever work. Third world nations have no respect for weakness. They will do as they please when they see weak leadership in power.

Then they are empty threats and I have no respect for empty threats. If they are not willing to follow through with it and form their own government, their own nation, then making those threats are the act of a traitor.

Originally posted by Heisenberg59
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

That's not really the point I was trying to make though, but you are correct. I was trying to say that there is logic in seceding to recreate a Government that has obviously been taken over by foreign interests and corrupt banks. There is a difference between a state seceding to create it's own nation and states seceding to reform what our founders originally intended.

Seceding doesn't reform anything, it only separates you from the country you are part of. Once you secede, you are no longer part of the country.
You are focusing on the empty threat of seceding, which is also cowardly. If you are going to make a threat, you need to be prepared to carry through with it.
You cannot reform anything by seceding, you can only leave and have no say whatsoever in what is done after that time.

reply to post by HopSkipJump

Nice post HopSkipJump!
When I first read your title I was not impressed but after reading your post I find that I agree.

Patriotism is the full support for one's country, and the governemtnt within, right or wrong. All too often I hear about so many people that misuse the word "Patriot" and rant on about some nonissue all the while ignoring what I consider very important events; 9/11, patriot act, Iraq war... That is why I so often cringe when I hear or read the word Patriot.

If the constitution is being infrinedged upon or is threatened then a true patriot would bring this to the attention of others for the purpose of protecting it.

Originally posted by WaterBottle
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

 

Your simple view of the problem as "were just gonna secede because our guy isnt in there" is indicative of the problem.......

If Romney was elected there would be no petitions to secede right now. You can pretend like this isn't true but it is. The petitions were created by a bunch of butthurt mainly southern right wingers.

COULD be , we dont know who made the petitions or under what guise they did so.......

So to ASSUME one knows what their intentions were is folly.....

One could just as easily assume they were made by people who saw what he did last term and knew exactly the direction he was going to go this term......

It seems if that were the case , they would be right........

Again.....those are assumptions and arent conducive to a balanced debate

Instead of threatening to secede, if they want to make a difference, they should be trying to get their representatives to have the present leaders declared unconstitutional. That's the way to make a change. Have certain laws declared unconstitutional. Have certain actions declared unconstitutional. Then they can be changed. Or, you can have your representatives change the laws, change the actions.

Saying you are going to secede says you are leaving what exists, you are no longer part of it, you have no say, you have no rights, you are no longer part of the country. It doens't allow you to change things, it doesn't allow you to come back. The country may accept you back, but it will be on THEIR terms, not yours.

If you want to improve your marriage, do you get divorced? If you want to improve your job, do you quit? No. You may make empty threats about it, but actually doing it is very different. I also have no respect for empty threats, they are nothing more than a form of bullying carried out by cowardly people who want to force others to do what they want.

Let Texas secede, then we, as a nation, can refuse to take them back. Maybe they can join Mexico and we can set up border security so they can't sneak into our country. THAT is what you are accomplishing. Is that what you want?

Originally posted by HopSkipJump
Does it mean they have to adhere to those laws even if they don't agree with them? Yes, it does. If you do not adhere to the laws that exist, you are subject to whatever punishment exists for breaking those laws.

If your government sets out to change laws or create new laws, there is a process that must be gone through in order to do so. You have a say in it. You elect officials to represent you in making these decisions. If the elected official doesn't agree with you personally, then you have the opportunity to help elect a different official in the next election. However, you do not have the "right" to ignore what those officials decide, you do not have the right to rise up against those officials, who were elected by a majority, you do not have the right to do whatever you want to do. The government exists because we chose for it to exist and the majority of the citizens in the country voted for the officials that now hold office.

I completely disagree with this. In my opinion, laws were created to prevent people from doing stupid things. Laws by nature encourage sheep mentality. It removes the responsibility of the individual to practice critical thinking skills, and instead just follow orders. When these laws infringe upon personal liberty, they should not be followed, but abolished, and the persons passing legislature should be removed from office.

In a perfect world, politicians listen to what the people want, but unfortunately for us in the U.S. it does not work that way. Instead they listen to whoever has the most money, which is not the majority of our population.

reply to post by Carreau

I would consider these men Patriots and they seceded from a tyrannical Government.

Yet they did not secede from the Union! You could say that they were then no longer patriotic to England when they formed the United State of America.

Originally posted by Devino
reply to post by HopSkipJump

 

Nice post HopSkipJump!
When I first read your title I was not impressed but after reading your post I find that I agree.

Patriotism is the full support for one's country, and the governemtnt within, right or wrong. All too often I hear about so many people that misuse the word "Patriot" and rant on about some nonissue all the while ignoring what I consider very important events; 9/11, patriot act, Iraq war... That is why I so often cringe when I hear or read the word Patriot.

If the constitution is being infrinedged upon or is threatened then a true patriot would bring this to the attention of others for the purpose of protecting it.

edit on 1/20/2013 by Devino because: (no reason given)

Exactly!! Thank you for seeing that and understanding. As patriots, we don't say we're going to secede, we work to make the changes that need to be made

Originally posted by Kevinquisitor

I completely disagree with this. In my opinion, laws were created to prevent people from doing stupid things. Laws by nature encourage sheep mentality. It removes the responsibility of the individual to practice critical thinking skills, and instead just follow orders. When these laws infringe upon personal liberty, they should not be followed, but abolished, and the persons passing legislature should be removed from office.

In a perfect world, politicians listen to what the people want, but unfortunately for us in the U.S. it does not work that way. Instead they listen to whoever has the most money, which is not the majority of our population.

Until you are able to change those laws, you do have to abide by them or suffer the consequences. Not agreeing with a law doesn't mean we oppose the government. Not agreeing with an elected official doesn't mean we oppose the government. The government is not the elected officials or the laws that they make. The government is the structure set up by the Constitution.

What you are saying is exactly what I said, yet you are saying you disagree with it. Perhaps read again what was posted in a different frame of mind and you will see that.

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

COULD be , we dont know who made the petitions or under what guise they did so.......

Nope. I know this to be true. You do too, but since you are a right winger and a Glenn Beck fan you'll deny this.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


I don't see making a stand for a Constitutional right as being traitorous by any means. It is each states right to secede. Just because you do not agree with it does not make it traitorous.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


you are hinging your entire argument on "are" VS "is"....?

that is just absurd. After the civil war the Supremacy clause was included but it just establishes the CONSTITUTIONAL powers of the federal government and protects them from being taken away by individual states or private entities.

Like printing money away form congress through a private entity, like the fed..AHEM...or a state trying to negotiate with a foreign country on behalf of the entire union.

The supremacy clause is limited to the constitutional powers ascribed in the constitution and ALL treaties and laws already established. It does not trump state authority as established in the US constitution and each state constitution.

That is why the Federal government was helpless during the civil rights era to force the states to enact any laws or withdraw any laws. That is why each state had to be won one by one by the people themselves.

Also when the national drinking age was set to 21 some states refused and had to be coerced into applying the 21 age limit by threatening to with hold federal money designated for highways. THEY COULD NOT FORCE the states to do squat legally because state sovereignty is supreme.

reply to post by HopSkipJump


Our country has existed for 237 years. Things have changed from what they used to be. You are describing what our country should be like, but for a while now it has been different. Our government is doing whatever it wants to do regardless of what the majority of the people want.

People have been trying to go through the right process to vote and make desired change to better welfare, but it just does not work anymore. What else can you do but secede?