Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

reply to post by kthxbai


They are being forced to pay for something that is against their beliefs. Doesn't matter if they use it or not. It's the fact that they don't have a choice to chose the type of healthcare plan that they want. The government has dictated that the healthcare plan they will have will fund the morning after-pill.

Originally posted by Timing
reply to post by poet1b

 

Enter individual lawsuits.

This is where Obamacare is going to get torn to shreds. Obamacare is basically forcing people to purchase a healthcare plan that violates their religious beliefs. If the employee of the business does not agree with the healthcare plan that they receive because it violates their religious beliefs then it is a violation of the 1st amendment.

Who's religious beliefs? The employer or the employee? And which religion? Can a 'Christian' be fired from a jewish owned company because they eat pork? And what if you don't observe proper prayer rituals at a Muslim owned company, is that cause for termination?

The only true evil is trying to force your views and beliefs onto another. That is what Hobby Lobby is trying to do. They are basically saying 'since we don't believe this way, you must do as we say'. And as has been pointed out here ad nauseum, Hobby Lobby is NOT a religious institute. It is a secular endeavour. As such, it MUST follow the laws of the land.

Honestly, I respect the owners of Hobby Lobby for their beliefs. They come from a good moral background that so many more of could use. But, when they try a force their views onto another, then the respect is gone. God gave us this life so that we can choose who we are. When that choice is made for us, then is it an honest choice?

Originally posted by Timing
reply to post by kthxbai

 

They are being forced to pay for something that is against their beliefs. Doesn't matter if they use it or not. It's the fact that they don't have a choice to chose the type of healthcare plan that they want. The government has dictated that the healthcare plan they will have will fund the morning after-pill.

They get the standard plan that everybody gets. They just aren't getting any "special treatment" by getting to pick and choose what they like. Also, it's the employer fighting it, not the employee.

There are 525 stores in 42 states. There is absolutely no way you can honestly say that none of the employees in any of the stores want that coverage. The employer was trying to use this as a loophole to get out of providing it. It didn't work.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by pavelivanov22
Sad to see this in USA brought up by christian principles and was blessed by God,

Please Sir, Show me a Link to where the US was Blessed by God.

The US is Probably the Most Barbaric Country since Mongolia's Genghis Khan.

Not saying i disagree with the poster you responded to.......

But you asking them for a link stating we were blessed by god, is like asking you to post a youtube video of the founding fathers signing the declaration of independence........

You cant ask impossible things and then try to uphold them in an argument...

2. The most barbaric huh? Wow, clearly you lack research on NK, and many other countries that starve their people, kill their own people, or places such as the congo, how bout Iraq or any other number of countries that strap bombs to children.......

Give me a break.......

Your blind hate for the US has made you illogical

Originally posted by therealdemoboy
Do Americans REALLY not understand what fascism is? Or is it that they don't care? I just don't get the apathy of people to allow executive power grabs like this.

This is straying off-topic a bit, but nothing will be done until there is some kind of leadership. Individuals cannot do anything against an entire government, but as a group, much can be done, but there needs to be some sort of leadership structure to follow. It doesn't exist in the form of the GOP, It's been silenced in the form of the Tea Party, it almost congealed with Ron Paul.

Someone or some group needs to stand up and represent the majority of Americans, because NO ONE is at this moment.

Originally posted by ObservingTheWorld
Who's religious beliefs? The employer or the employee? And which religion? Can a 'Christian' be fired from a jewish owned company because they eat pork? And what if you don't observe proper prayer rituals at a Muslim owned company, is that cause for termination?

The employee. First you can't terminate someone because they eat pork at a Jewish company, because that is against that persons freedom of religion. The same for the person that doesn't practice a prayer ritual at a Muslim owned company because they aren't a Muslim.

In both instances employers have to respect the right of the individuals freedom of religion.

In the case of Obamacare, employees don't have a choice as to which healthcare plan they have because it is mandated by the government that the employee must have a healthcare plan that provides a product that is against that persons religious belief.

The only true evil is trying to force your views and beliefs onto another. That is what Hobby Lobby is trying to do. They are basically saying 'since we don't believe this way, you must do as we say'. And as has been pointed out here ad nauseum, Hobby Lobby is NOT a religious institute. It is a secular endeavour. As such, it MUST follow the laws of the land.

Isn't that what the government is doing by removing peoples(employees) choice of having a healthcare plan that provides contraceptives that go against the their religious beliefs?

Honestly, I respect the owners of Hobby Lobby for their beliefs. They come from a good moral background that so many more of could use. But, when they try a force their views onto another, then the respect is gone. God gave us this life so that we can choose who we are. When that choice is made for us, then is it an honest choice?

This is where you are getting confused. While Hobby Lobby may lose their lawsuit, the employees of the company can and most likely will bring suit against the government. Because the government is forcing those individuals to violate their freedom of religion.

The problem lies in options. Real health insurance ( for the most part) doesn't cover elective procedure, and this is no different. Contraceptives and even the morning-after pill are not necessities. I've never met a person that couldn't live healthily without them. With this as part of modern healthcare, what's next, plastic surgery coverage required? Honestly, the government has no right to tell us what we have to purchase. If we want reformed healthcare, I suggest following a much more sensible plan that would work for everyone, would not infringe anyone's rights or beliefs, and wouldn't build government power over our lives. Why not try something similar to NZ? They have less than 30% of the population with health insurance, and it works. Why? Healthcare is affordable. The solution is to give the people affordable care when they need it, not to charge them yet another fee/ tax to line the pockets of politicians, unless of course the primary objective is to oppress rather than help the citizens of our country.

Originally posted by kthxbai
...They get the standard plan that everybody gets...

There you go. The employees are being forced to have a health care plan that goes against their belief.

The employees can't bring suit until they are affected by this law. Which I don't think they will be until 2014.

While Hobby Lobby might lose their lawsuit, the employees most likely will win theirs.

reply to post by beezzer


Does this mean I have to convert to Islam to get an exemption?
Wow, they got you by the short ones on this.
Jesus told me it was ok to lie to the government though,
he said it was "Baal' shizzul " according to Jewish law.

Originally posted by chadderson

So get this..
"The first argument the administration makes against the owners of Hobby Lobby is that Americans lose their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion when they form a corporation and engage in commerce. A person’s Christianity, the administration argues, cannot be carried out through activities he engages in through an incorporated business."

"In keeping with Delery’s argument, the Washington Post, as a corporation, can use its First Amendment-protected freedom of speech to write editorials in support of the Obama administration imposing its contraception mandate on businesses like Hobby Lobby. But the members of the family that created and owns Hobby Lobby, because they formed Hobby Lobby as a corporation, have no First Amendment freedom of religion that protects them from being forced by the government to act against their religious beliefs in providing abortion-inducing drugs."

Thank you for posting more specifics of the argument. I happen to think it is a valid argument; however, I don't think it will hold up in court as corporations are considered 'persons' in all other areas. I don't believe that a corporation is a 'person' or being but is a construct for the benefit of the owners/shareholders. I don't like it that they don't have any responsibility to the rest of the planet - just their owners - but that's how it is.

The outrage that is presented against this argument - doesn't - impinge on individual freedom of choice but on corporate control of it's 'human assets' individula freedom of choice. And so - seems very illogical to me. But hey - I'm an old fashion liberal - that thinks people are capable of making their own choices and paying their own consequences (here or hereafter).

I think forcing a corporation to provide basic health care to it's 'minions' is a CHRISTIAN thing to do - how the minions use that care is their personal choice. DON'T force your religious dogmas on other people.

Thanks again for the posting.

reply to post by jimmyx

good for Obama... it's about time people that believe in mythical beings, stop trying to force others to follow the rules of mythical beings.

I guess you don't believe in the Constitution there huh? Well guess what bucko, whether you agree or disagree with a persons beliefs, as an American you might want to think twice before you deny someone their rights and beliefs!!! As most of us on ATS already know, you worship Mr. Obama. Good luck with that!!!

As much as I dispise your total lack of understanding the Constitution, I can tell you this much, "As much as I hate the agenda you represent, the Constitution gives you that right!!!!

That's the difference between people like you and people like me! I will defend someones rights even if I disagree with them, where facists like you only give a damn when it comes a knockin at your back door!!!

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


You may find irony in the idea that corporations were invented by copying the church which set all the legal precedents for human cooperative organizing.
Around the time of the enlightenment the bankers saw how successful an idea that was and organized themselves in alliance with trade and money rather than bloodlines or theistic beliefs with the Hudson Bay and East India companies.

What happened was the church lost control to banking corporations worldwide over the last 200 years.
They had a near monopoly going for a nice long run though, glad I didn't live in those times when the church ruled....my tongue would have gotten me burned at the stake by age 15.

Originally posted by Timing


The employee. First you can't terminate someone because they eat pork at a Jewish company, because that is against that persons freedom of religion. The same for the person that doesn't practice a prayer ritual at a Muslim owned company because they aren't a Muslim.

But equivalent to what you are saying, a company that serves pork in their cafeteria would be violating that employees freedom of religion because they make pork AVAILABLE.

The employee isn't required to USE the health insurance for birth control, it's only made available to them. There's a very, VERY big difference.

Making it available in their health plan doesn't violate their rights. Withholding it from their health plan would be violating their rights and that's what the employer is trying to do.

The health plan doesn't force them to use birth control. The employer wants to force them not to.

Originally posted by igniterevolution
The problem lies in options. Real health insurance ( for the most part) doesn't cover elective procedure, and this is no different. Contraceptives and even the morning-after pill are not necessities. I've never met a person that couldn't live healthily without them. With this as part of modern healthcare, what's next, plastic surgery coverage required? Honestly, the government has no right to tell us what we have to purchase. If we want reformed healthcare, I suggest following a much more sensible plan that would work for everyone, would not infringe anyone's rights or beliefs, and wouldn't build government power over our lives. Why not try something similar to NZ? They have less than 30% of the population with health insurance, and it works. Why? Healthcare is affordable. The solution is to give the people affordable care when they need it, not to charge them yet another fee/ tax to line the pockets of politicians, unless of course the primary objective is to oppress rather than help the citizens of our country.

That's where you're wrong. Contraceptives are necessary for my aunt. She has cysts on her ovaries and the birth control pills keep those cysts from causing problems because birth control pills are basically hormones. So yes, for her, it IS a necessity. It's not something she does to prevent pregnancy at all, she uses them for the cysts. She's well past her child bearing years as well as single and celibate, but she still uses the pills.

Originally posted by Asktheanimals
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

 

You may find irony in the idea that corporations were invented by copying the church which set all the legal precedents for human cooperative organizing.
.

And just where did you get this absurd idea. People were working collectively and sucessfully from hunter/gatherer days and IMHO more sucessfully. The church and corporations are about exploitation and control.

reply to post by kthxbai

The employee isn't required to USE the health insurance for birth control, it's only made available to them. There's a very, VERY big difference.

Help me out here? Their complaint is not that they use it but they help pay into that health plan for others?

Originally posted by Timing

Originally posted by kthxbai
...They get the standard plan that everybody gets...

There you go. The employees are being forced to have a health care plan that goes against their belief.

The employees can't bring suit until they are affected by this law. Which I don't think they will be until 2014.

While Hobby Lobby might lose their lawsuit, the employees most likely will win theirs.

edit on 31-12-2012 by Timing because: (no reason given)

????

No dear, the healthplan covers many, many things that a lot of the employees will never use. Some may never have a need for radiation treatments following surgery for cancer, but it will be covered by the plan. Some will never have a need for dialysis, but it is covered by the plan. Something being covered by the plan doesn't violate any rights of any kind in any way. However, something NOT being covered by the plan does violate rights.

Not a single employee will sue, first, they have no grounds upon which to sue, nobody is FORCING them to USE birth control, secondly, the protection being there does not alter the price of the plan to them in any way. If they don't want birth control, they simply don't use it. If they don't need radiation therapy, they don't use it. If they don't need dialysis, they don't use it. That's the way it works.

You are not required to use every possible thing that your healthcare plan covers

so this is the old christians have to pay for birth control on the medical plan thingy again ?

where is the outrage for a church being able to tell a woman what to do with her body ?

Originally posted by intrptr
reply to post by kthxbai

 

The employee isn't required to USE the health insurance for birth control, it's only made available to them. There's a very, VERY big difference.

Help me out here? Their complaint is not that they use it but they help pay into that health plan for others?

The employees aren't complaining at all, the other poster is having trouble understanding that. The employers are complaining and don't want to pay for it, but that's not their choice. It is, by law, part of the healthcare package and that employer has to cover it whether that employer likes it or not. They are trying to use religious beliefs of the owner of the company to deprive the employees of the company health coverage. They aren't permitted to do so.

reply to post by igniterevolution


a few years ago, I ended up with a hernia, went to the doctor, told him that I thought it was a hernia, no, no, he claimed, must be something else! he ordered a colonoscopy, something that my insurance paid a good part of the bill for because it's considered preventive medicine...but it turned up nothing!! everything was fine, except it took me over a year to actually get a diagnosis that I had the hernia, which to be quite frank, was very simple to get once I switched doctors....simply, very simple, test that just required me to bend my body in a certain manner, and low and behold, it popped out and he agreed, it was a henia!!
the colonoscopy was not necessary.....

birth control is!!
first, for some, who take certain medicines, it's necessary to prevent conceptions that are assured to create very deformed babies....matter of fact, ny state has order at least one women to have an abortion to avoid such a thing from happening.
second, for some, it can be dangerous for a women to have a baby.....better to take measure to prevent it at the start...
third, some women need the pill to treat other conditions...
and fourth, it isn't really that healthy for women to have baby after baby, neither for her physical health or her mental health!!!

unless you are willing to go throughout the majority of you married life celibate, more than likely some form of birth control will enter into the picture at one point or another, either that or you will more than likely spend most of your life living in proverty!