Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

reply to post by pavelivanov22


Wait a minute! The government is forcing Hobby Lobby to up hold the law. If Hobby Lobby denies its employees
The right to treat THEIR bodies as they have the right to under law I have to give the government credit.. Hobby Lobby doesn't have the right to impose its beliefs on its employees. How would you like to work for a company that made you read the Quran at lunch? Or tell you that you had to eat fish on Friday's even if that was your day off?
Please give us all a break if your upset because the government is up holding OUR rights to act within our different belife systems at least have intelligence to appreciate that that means that you too have the right to belive what you want! Just don't push your belifes on to others. The bible doesn't say "love thy neighbor as long as they think like you do!" It says love thy neighbor. Period!!!!!!

Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Forcing a Christian to enable sin is a sin. Woe to the one who causes others to sin. Contraception is a sin, and my family is guilty.

That's the same argument used by many to slaughter others during the crusades. If they allowed those terrible people to live, they were permitting sin, so they killed them all. That was NOT Christian nor was it what God intended.

Stop right there. The FIRST Crusades were just do your research. millions of Christians were being slaughtered on their way to pilgrimage to Jerusalem (GO ISRAEL).

If you say the Crusades were not just, you have not done any research at all. Further, the knights templar should not have been excommunicated, and this has been FINALLY confirmed.

It was all political with a king - they slandered the Crusades and the Templars.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Forcing a Christian to enable sin is a sin. Woe to the one who causes others to sin. Contraception is a sin, and my family is guilty.

That's the same argument used by many to slaughter others during the crusades. If they allowed those terrible people to live, they were permitting sin, so they killed them all. That was NOT Christian nor was it what God intended.

Stop right there. The FIRST Crusades were just do your research. millions of Christians were being slaughtered on their way to pilgrimage to Jerusalem (GO ISRAEL).

If you say the Crusades were not just, you have not done any research at all. Further, the knights templar should not have been excommunicated, and this has been FINALLY confirmed.

It was all political with a king - they slandered the Crusades and the Templars.

And exactly WHAT does that have to do with providing healthcare according to the law set forth by the government??

reply to post by pavelivanov22

So, if they were not a corporation, which is a separate legal entity considered a person pretty much by law, would this still apply?

Originally posted by pavelivanov22
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

 

Shouldn't force either one, if corporations are seen as a person in court why would they not be seen as one in this case.

We Already have these wonderful, tax exempt "corporations" who are allowed to push their religious world views on fellow believers. They are called Churches. If the corporation wants to be seen as a religious entity and push an agenda they can change their IRS filings, file for tax exempt status, stop making a profit and become a church. As long as they want to make a profit and operate as a corporation they have to follow some laws that go a little beyond the 1st amendment. I can see why from your perspective this is an anti Christian move but I don't see it that way. I truly sympathize with the companies owners but they don't seem to grasp that they want the rights of a church while reaping the benefits of corporate status. As individuals they have the right to do act think and say as they please, even down to running their business as "good, loving Christians". its when you get to defining running business as a good loving Christian that things enter grey. If the people who work for them are also "good Christian" folk or however you want to look at it, then they're not going to bother needing the options that can end a pregnancy. It almost seems like it works itself out on its own.

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by kthxbai
However, they are forced to provide medical coverage to their employees
I was going to share my bacon with you

And that's the key word.

They are being forced to provide a service to which they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

One slice. Maybe two. That's it on the bacon.

But they aren't required to take out a specific policy that covers contraceptives and only contraceptives. They are required to provide a policy that does offer contraceptives according to the choice of the patient. Just like the penicillin example I gave. Just because the owner is allergic to penicillin doesn't mean it should be witheld from all employees as well.

I'll give you sausage wrapped in bacon and covered with bacon bits

They are forced to pay for a healthcare package that includes abortion meds.

If the Obama administration was smart and not politically driven, they'd offer a menu to choose from their evil unconstitutional draconian healthcare plan.

Add BBQ sauce and it a deal!

AHAH!! Exactly. There should be "opt out" on certain things... since a business is privately owned and not govt owned. If folks want abortions and morning after pills.. work at a place that offers that in their insurance package. The ULTIMATE in freedom of choice.. where you work, what you pay for, etc. Its not necessary that it is an either/or choice... but sure is working well pitting American citizens against each other unnecessarily.

Originally posted by jude11
So he is only targeting Christians?

Oh wait, hasn't it been said that he is Muslim? Ok, makes sense now that this is the exact agenda of the 'Other' religion.

Peace

Which religion is that?
The one who's people he's bombing every day?

This is not about beliefs, it's not about doing what's right.
It's about money, greed and power!

reply to post by Tw0Sides


twosides, baby...here's a reply about how God said that after 2,250 years after He sent them packing for not keeping the sabbath or letting the land rest( last dispersal), equals about 1820 a.d.......He would give them a NEW LAND....cool....that was richer than any other had ever been, and they would be able to feed the world and lead the world....and it would a land of their own shore to shore.
The new land would have exceeding plentiful natural resources. The new land would be theirs forever, and their affluence would be top-most in History, being a help to the whole world...you have to read it to get this stuff

reply to post by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by pavelivanov22
Sad to see this in USA brought up by christian principles and was blessed by God,

Please Sir, Show me a Link to where the US was Blessed by God.

The US is Probably the Most Barbaric Country since Mongolia's Genghis Khan.

I am going to stray slightly off-topic. For the sake of Genghis. While their warfare was brutal the Mongols under Genghis Khan had an extremely fair and just system of law. I wish we could get some of their practices over here. They were far from barbaric.


Now, to go on topic, I think the administration is stretching this. In fact, I don't see why they need to get involved at all. If this employer and employee agree to the terms, specifically no morning-after pills covered by their insurance, I see no problem at all. Then again, the very act of incorporating puts that organization at the mercy of the government. So, the administration is stretching this in a letter of the law fashion.

Personally, I believe this corporation should be able to do as they choose. However, I know my beliefs mean nothing to the government.

Lastly, I bet I would not be able to be granted an exemption to the health care laws based on my personal religion. Although its views on Insurance are in tune with "official religions" views. Life can be so unfair...........the sad part is, in this day and age, it does not have to be.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


This would not be an issue in the first place if people not only expected their wages from their employers, but also expected them to pay for their health care.

Here's an idea, open a bank account and insert a portion of your wages into it. That is all the "health insurance" you need. Then you can pay for any procedure you want, without having to force someone else to pay for it for you.

Well I guess people are going to be flaming me... so what else is new? lol


I don't have a problem with this at all. At the end of the day, when it comes to healthcare, drugs are drugs. No business has a right to decide what drugs I take in regards to my healthcare. Many companies drug test. If I were to fail my drug test due to taking Loritabs, I would retain my job if I can provide a prescription from my Doctor and my companies healthcare plan would cover it.

Just because my employer may not believe in abortion, for any reason, does not mean they can dictate what is best for me. What if the mother's life was at risk? Should she have to choose between keeping her job or risking her life? I don't think so. At the end of the day, it is not the employers business at all.

Now with that being said- there should also be no exceptions. Indians, Muslims, I don't care. No one religion should be exempt from this at all.

I'll be watching to see what the outcome of this will be.

I think ultimately it will come down to if Hobby Lobby offered an insurance package to it's employees that was inline with their beliefs and the passage of Obamacare forced Hobby Lobby to offer an insurance policy to it's employees that violated their religion.

In that case it seems to me that Obamacaree is in violation of the 1st amendment because employees that do disagree with the morning after pill are being forced to subsidize it's use due to the fact that the employee now can't choose which healthcare plan they want without paying for two healthcare plans.

It seems to me that Obamacare is about to have all kinds of holes shot in it. Wait until the lawsuits start flowing from individual citizens that claim the government can't force them to pay for health insurance. I wonder what other kinds of lawsuits we are going to see.

Originally posted by MrWendal
Well I guess people are going to be flaming me... so what else is new? lol


I don't have a problem with this at all. At the end of the day, when it comes to healthcare, drugs are drugs. No business has a right to decide what drugs I take in regards to my healthcare. Many companies drug test. If I were to fail my drug test due to taking Loritabs, I would retain my job if I can provide a prescription from my Doctor and my companies healthcare plan would cover it.

Just because my employer may not believe in abortion, for any reason, does not mean they can dictate what is best for me. What if the mother's life was at risk? Should she have to choose between keeping her job or risking her life? I don't think so. At the end of the day, it is not the employers business at all.

Now with that being said- there should also be no exceptions. Indians, Muslims, I don't care. No one religion should be exempt from this at all.

Very well said. It's not up to the employer to dictate what type of prescribed medications the employee takes. That's between the patient and the doctor, not the patient, doctor and patient's employer.

There are no religions that are exempt from it, if somebody owns a business and has employees, they have to provide their employees with healthcare. If somebody from any religion wants a wavier for themselves personally, they can have it, but not for the employees working under them.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Searching through the posts here..... I take it you do not profess Jesus Christ as your Lord?


Murdering babies is wrong. I look at my daughter - I think what if my wife had an abortion behind my back? She would not be here(my daughter lol). She is a living, independent being with intelligence and free will. She deserves to live, same with the other ungodly amount we kill every year.

You chose GOOD or EVIL. I know, MSM made that seem comical, but it's still true.... just ask God.

Are you judging me? You know what the Bible says about judging people. I take it you take the Bible literally? I take it you have irrational beliefs of a long -bearded man who lives in the clouds and controls our lives?

I bet you believe in the death penalty, and support the wars to destroy the un-Godly Muslim menace. Am I correct? So many radical Christians are against abortions yet are supporters of war and the death penalty, even if the person may be innocent. They don't care about life. Who are you trying to kid?

I personally don't believe in abortions, and I would never ask a spouse/loved one to get one. But I also won't attempt to impose that belief on others, like the radical Christians do.

Sorry, but you can't use religious beliefs to violate U.S. law, which is what this corporation is trying to do.

US laws says all businesses much provide health care that includes contraceptive, then that corporation must follow the law.

For the U.S. government to enforce this corporations contractual requirements, it would be a violation of the first amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

The First Part is " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion [/] Which also includes contractual laws.

Heck, if these people were able to dodge following the laws of our nation based on religious beliefs, there would be no end to it.

We would hear excuses like, "It is not murder, it is human sacrifice, I am just practicing my religious faith."

reply to post by poet1b


Enter individual lawsuits.

This is where Obamacare is going to get torn to shreds. Obamacare is basically forcing people to purchase a healthcare plan that violates their religious beliefs. If the employee of the business does not agree with the healthcare plan that they receive because it violates their religious beliefs then it is a violation of the 1st amendment.

Originally posted by TheComte

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Searching through the posts here..... I take it you do not profess Jesus Christ as your Lord?


Murdering babies is wrong. I look at my daughter - I think what if my wife had an abortion behind my back? She would not be here(my daughter lol). She is a living, independent being with intelligence and free will. She deserves to live, same with the other ungodly amount we kill every year.

You chose GOOD or EVIL. I know, MSM made that seem comical, but it's still true.... just ask God.

Are you judging me? You know what the Bible says about judging people. I take it you take the Bible literally? I take it you have irrational beliefs of a long -bearded man who lives in the clouds and controls our lives?

I bet you believe in the death penalty, and support the wars to destroy the un-Godly Muslim menace. Am I correct? So many radical Christians are against abortions yet are supporters of war and the death penalty, even if the person may be innocent. They don't care about life. Who are you trying to kid?

I personally don't believe in abortions, and I would never ask a spouse/loved one to get one. But I also won't attempt to impose that belief on others, like the radical Christians do.

edit on 31-12-2012 by TheComte because: (no reason given)

Did you just judge me!? haha just kidding. Do not mock God again. I was right in my assertion that you are not Christian.

1) No I did not judge I simply asked a question. It seemed logical at the time to me.
2) I am Catholic, a part of the original Church of God,which means I know some parts are literal and some are not.
3) I have no problems with Muslims. Why would I? While confused at least they know who the Messiah is. Even if they didn't still wouldn't judge them. Muslim extremists on the other hand..... boom boom bang bang. That's not judging either.
4) Death penalty? uhhh what do you want an essay? I don't support the current system.

I am pro life - which means I think a woman should only get to choose in extreme circumstances.

BTW, God is a person, but He is not in the sky. Also, your idea of him is pretty wrong in general. I personally blame the radical christians

Want apologetics? U2U me. You would be surprised what logical Christians have discovered while the radicals are out telling you you are going to hell.

Originally posted by Earthmuffin33
reply to post by pavelivanov22

 

Wait a minute! The government is forcing Hobby Lobby to up hold the law. If Hobby Lobby denies its employees
The right to treat THEIR bodies as they have the right to under law I have to give the government credit.. Hobby Lobby doesn't have the right to impose its beliefs on its employees. How would you like to work for a company that made you read the Quran at lunch? Or tell you that you had to eat fish on Friday's even if that was your day off?
Please give us all a break if your upset because the government is up holding OUR rights to act within our different belife systems at least have intelligence to appreciate that that means that you too have the right to belive what you want! Just don't push your belifes on to others. The bible doesn't say "love thy neighbor as long as they think like you do!" It says love thy neighbor. Period!!!!!!

I think reading the Quran at lunchtime, or eating fish on friday is a far far lesser evil than murdering an unborn child, don't you?

Also, isn't the government pushing and forcing it's beliefs on others by forcing them to do something against what they believe?, or is the government exempt from following that for some reason?

Originally posted by Timing
reply to post by poet1b

 

Enter individual lawsuits.

This is where Obamacare is going to get torn to shreds. Obamacare is basically forcing people to purchase a healthcare plan that violates their religious beliefs. If the employee of the business does not agree with the healthcare plan that they receive because it violates their religious beliefs then it is a violation of the 1st amendment.

The healthcare plan doesn't force them to use birthcontrol or get an abortion, it just covers it if they do so. It doesn't violate anything about their religiou beliefs because it doesn't require them to do those things.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by TheComte

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Searching through the posts here..... I take it you do not profess Jesus Christ as your Lord?


Murdering babies is wrong. I look at my daughter - I think what if my wife had an abortion behind my back? She would not be here(my daughter lol). She is a living, independent being with intelligence and free will. She deserves to live, same with the other ungodly amount we kill every year.

You chose GOOD or EVIL. I know, MSM made that seem comical, but it's still true.... just ask God.

Are you judging me? You know what the Bible says about judging people. I take it you take the Bible literally? I take it you have irrational beliefs of a long -bearded man who lives in the clouds and controls our lives?

I bet you believe in the death penalty, and support the wars to destroy the un-Godly Muslim menace. Am I correct? So many radical Christians are against abortions yet are supporters of war and the death penalty, even if the person may be innocent. They don't care about life. Who are you trying to kid?

I personally don't believe in abortions, and I would never ask a spouse/loved one to get one. But I also won't attempt to impose that belief on others, like the radical Christians do.

edit on 31-12-2012 by TheComte because: (no reason given)

Did you just judge me!? haha just kidding. Do not mock God again. I was right in my assertion that you are not Christian.

1) No I did not judge I simply asked a question. It seemed logical at the time to me.
2) I am Catholic, a part of the original Church of God,which means I know some parts are literal and some are not.
3) I have no problems with Muslims. Why would I? While confused at least they know who the Messiah is. Even if they didn't still wouldn't judge them. Muslim extremists on the other hand..... boom boom bang bang. That's not judging either.
4) Death penalty? uhhh what do you want an essay? I don't support the current system.

I am pro life - which means I think a woman should only get to choose in extreme circumstances.

BTW, God is a person, but He is not in the sky. Also, your idea of him is pretty wrong in general. I personally blame the radical christians

Want apologetics? U2U me. You would be surprised what logical Christians have discovered while the radicals are out telling you you are going to hell.

No, you are wrong. I am a true Catholic.

You're idea of God is wrong. And please do not call God a person again.

There is no Hell.