Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by kthxbai
However, they are forced to provide medical coverage to their employees
I was going to share my bacon with you

And that's the key word.

They are being forced to provide a service to which they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

One slice. Maybe two. That's it on the bacon.

But they aren't required to take out a specific policy that covers contraceptives and only contraceptives. They are required to provide a policy that does offer contraceptives according to the choice of the patient. Just like the penicillin example I gave. Just because the owner is allergic to penicillin doesn't mean it should be witheld from all employees as well.

I'll give you sausage wrapped in bacon and covered with bacon bits

They are forced to pay for a healthcare package that includes abortion meds.

If the Obama administration was smart and not politically driven, they'd offer a menu to choose from their evil unconstitutional draconian healthcare plan.

Add BBQ sauce and it a deal!

reply to post by kthxbai


www.abovetopsecret.com...

there seems to be alot of people who really don't feel the need to extend the right to practice the muslim religion according to their conscious to individuals....

so, well, what can I say, why should the christian business owners get any special treatment??

reply to post by beezzer


and why should a women's medical need to prevent what would be a dangerous pregnancy seen as less worthy than another person's need to blood pressure medications, bipolar meds, or any other medical treatment?

Originally posted by pavelivanov22


Well here comes Obama he is going to start taking away our rights little by little. Wait until Obamacare..

Sad to see Christians being denied there freedom of religion too..

Sad to see this in USA brought up by christian principles and was blessed by God, now that they take him away from everything, this country is going downhill and fast. defiantly living in the end times.


cnsnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Sad? Sad?
Why aren't Americans filling the streets in support of Idle No More right now?

Originally posted by beezzer

They are forced to pay for a healthcare package that includes abortion meds.

If the Obama administration was smart and not politically driven, they'd offer a menu to choose from their evil unconstitutional draconian healthcare plan.

Add BBQ sauce and it a deal!

Yes, I agree that they have to pay for the healthcare package. The meds are an accepted form of healthcare so they are included in the healthcare coverage. They aren't required to be taken by the owners or even by every employee, but they are an option that is available to employees that agree with them and choose to use them.

Of course they are politically driven, they are part of a political party

hmmm, depends on what brand of BBQ sauce you like, I don't want to make a special trip to the store, but if you're willing to wait, I can pick it up on my next visit

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I did miss that part.

And certainly the abortion pill is going to raise some hackles.
However again we get into the whole women's rights issue again.

If a woman is raped and she doesn't find out about it till a few weeks later.
And this happened to a friend of mine. She was raped and didn't find out she was pregnant until it was time to actually deliver the baby.
Should a woman not be afforded access to the abortion pill because of her employers religious leanings.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. But here I go.
Your rights begin where my rights end. And vica versa.

An employer cannot deny someone their rights. PERIOD.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

www.law.cornell.edu...

Also no laws can be made in support of any religion. Or non-religion over religion.
Everything must be equal.

Under the laws of this country SCotUS made the right choice.

Personally I would not choose abortion unless the circumstances were dire. But everyone is free to make that choice and it's not an easy one to make. Hobby Lobby should respect a woman's decision to choose. It might conflict with their values but they should be understanding instead of stubborn.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


Hobby Lobby needs to be fined into oblivion! Then they need to get sued for discrimination against the non-religious.

Where was their righteous indignation when their tax dollars went to bombing innocent civilians?

You know what, there is absolutely no admonishment against abortion in the Bible anywhere! NONE!

There is however many instances of God commanding his people to rip babies from their mothers bellies and dashing infants against rocks. There's even an abortion ceremony, performed by priests in the temple, for women who's husbands think that they may have had desires for another man!

These so called Christians are so concerned about what goes on in their female employees bedrooms and/or what they may do if, horror upon horror, a woman should be raped! It's none of their business what their female employees decide to do with their own reproductive rights. They should just pay for full health care coverage and let the employee decide, and butt out!

Originally posted by beezzer
Wow. I leave to do a little shopping (needed scotch and prime rib) and this thread exploded!

So we have a company called Hobby Lobby. Doing well. Minding it's own business. Then comes along Obama and big government saying WE are going to TELL you how to run your business now regardless of your beliefs!

Hobby Lobby says, um, "no."

Government says, "Okay. We'll just fine you 1.3 million dollars a day until you go against your religious beliefs".

People here say, "YAY. RAH"

Others say, "um, the whole 1st Amendment issue."

People reply, "Get over it. Suck it up, baby. Christianity sucks!"

Do I have it right?

So what you are saying is a corporate entity has the right to tell you how to live? I do understand that the owners of a company have their own moral and belief system, but why should I have to follow what they believe? Unless they told me at the time I was hired that I must adhere to their religious views then how can they try to enforce that at a later time?

If these people wanted to start a church and then deny the abortion aspect of health care for the employees of said church, I would have no complaints. Hobby Lobby is NOT a church, but a for profit company. Would they be in the right to say if you are not evangelical christian then we won't hire you? Then are they in the right saying we have this particular belief so you must follow what we believe?

If one company can say we do not want to follow this particular law because of our religious views, then what about muslim owned companies, or jewish or any other belief system you can think of. While I am very anti-abortion, I am even more for freedom of thought and action. I really do not want my employer telling how to live my life.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by kthxbai

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

there seems to be alot of people who really don't feel the need to extend the right to practice the muslim religion according to their conscious to individuals....

so, well, what can I say, why should the christian business owners get any special treatment??

With the story you linked to, I don't feel that I could support the woman refusing to do her basic duties in the job description. Although it is against her religion to touch pork, there are other positions within the company that she could hold such as stocking shelves in a different area of the store or having another cashier who could trade off with her in that instance just as they do with cashiers who are underage in scanning alcohol purchases. It is something that can be worked around and if she refuses to work around it, they would be allowed to terminate her employment.

If they wanted to fire her merely for not wanting to touch the pork and not trying to work around it in any way, shape or form, I would have an issue with it. If they offer a solution, even if it isn't "easy", but still reasonable, then the burden is on her.

However, if they offer health insurance to their other employees and not to her, I would have a real issue with it.

reply to post by kthxbai


I have issues with obama care, many issues, but if there is gonna be a federally mandated, gov't accepted standard healthcare plan, well, denying one group (women) certain health needs (birth control) is something that I find not acceptable!

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by Liquesence

Originally posted by beezzer
Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.

Two different issues.

One is selling a good.

The other is providing coverage for employees.

Big difference.

You are talking from a secular standpoint. Freedom of religion..... it applies to the secular world in this country as well even through Church and State are separate.

No one should be FORCED to sell contraceptives.

edit on 31-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

They aren't being forced to sell contraceptives.

You are confusing the two issues.

Businesses can sell whatever the heck they want, within reason (applicable licenses and laws). Providing insurance is entirely different.

Lest i waste time repeating an example, i direct you here.

Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

I did miss that part.

And certainly the abortion pill is going to raise some hackles.
However again we get into the whole women's rights issue again.

If a woman is raped and she doesn't find out about it till a few weeks later.
And this happened to a friend of mine. She was raped and didn't find out she was pregnant until it was time to actually deliver the baby.
Should a woman not be afforded access to the abortion pill because of her employers religious leanings.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. But here I go.
Your rights begin where my rights end. And vica versa.

An employer cannot deny someone their rights. PERIOD.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

www.law.cornell.edu...

Also no laws can be made in support of any religion. Or non-religion over religion.
Everything must be equal.

Under the laws of this country SCotUS made the right choice.

Personally I would not choose abortion unless the circumstances were dire. But everyone is free to make that choice and it's not an easy one to make. Hobby Lobby should respect a woman's decision to choose. It might conflict with their values but they should be understanding instead of stubborn.

I do agree with you in what you are saying here.

At the same time, there does need to be limitations on abortion, having nothing to do with the present conversation yet still important. In the case of your friend, abortion definitely shouldn't be an option since she was at the point of delivering. Adoption would be the best possible course of action, in my opinion.

Although the morning after pill is very controversial, right now it is included in what is accepted and has to be covered by the health plans. If they wish to challenge the legality of the medication and win, it can be removed, but they can't just refuse to allow it to be provided.

My own personal beliefs concerning abortion and birth control may differ from what is accepted, but I wouldn't force my beliefs on others, they are for me and mine. I do support the use of birth control for myself and others in the various forms it comes in for each gender. I support the option of abortion for others but would never participate in one myself or choose as couple to have one and also think that both parties should be consulted except in the case of incest or rape. Otherwise, it took two to make the pregnancy, it should take two to decide to end it. The mother and father need to be in agreement, although the mother's choice does carry more weight as it involves her body. Compromise should be made favoring the completion of the pregnancy when possible... In my opinion of course.

Sorry for going slightly off track but felt it should be addressed so others can better understand where I am coming from.

If his authority comes down on me, I would say, "Over my dead body!"

Most likely I'll be shot for it.

Reply to post by beezzer

If the Muslim owned business was a religious institution then of course it would be a problem.

The thing here is that Hobby Lobby is not a religious entity. It is a huge corporate arts and crafts franchise. They are not religious in nature. They are the direct antithesis of all that is Christian due to their sole existence for profit. That's fine and all. We live in a free enterprise society where selling of goods is appreciated and the trading of monies for services and goods is the way we do things in our capitalist society.

You can't have it both ways though. Hobby Lobby cannot profit from the system and then resist the system when it doesn't suit their agenda. They do not want to supply healthcare for their female employees. It has nothing to do with Jesus. If Hobby Lobby dealt exclusively in Christian memorabelia and things of that nature, then of course I would agree with you. They do not though. They exist to mass produce cheap products for profit. Nothing could be farther from the Christian way.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

reply to post by beezzer


This is racist. Clear racism from the Democratic Party. What if I don't know if I'm a certain religion or blood line? Am I exempt from anything I want?

reply to post by kthxbai

I do agree with you in what you are saying here.

At the same time, there does need to be limitations on abortion, having nothing to do with the present conversation yet still important. In the case of your friend, abortion definitely shouldn't be an option since she was at the point of delivering. Adoption would be the best possible course of action, in my opinion.

Although the morning after pill is very controversial, right now it is included in what is accepted and has to be covered by the health plans. If they wish to challenge the legality of the medication and win, it can be removed, but they can't just refuse to allow it to be provided.

My own personal beliefs concerning abortion and birth control may differ from what is accepted, but I wouldn't force my beliefs on others, they are for me and mine. I do support the use of birth control for myself and others in the various forms it comes in for each gender. I support the option of abortion for others but would never participate in one myself or choose as couple to have one and also think that both parties should be consulted except in the case of incest or rape. Otherwise, it took two to make the pregnancy, it should take two to decide to end it. The mother and father need to be in agreement, although the mother's choice does carry more weight as it involves her body. Compromise should be made favoring the completion of the pregnancy when possible... In my opinion of course.

Sorry for going slightly off track but felt it should be addressed so others can better understand where I am coming from.

I only posted the point about my friend to illustrate the point that a woman can be pregnant and not know until pregnancy symptoms arose. She ended up keeping the baby and she's a very nice little girl.

I agree that life is better than not life.

But not everyone is in the same situation and all we can do is offer to support and guide if they are willing.

reply to post by kthxbai

Although the morning after pill is very controversial, right now it is included in what is accepted and has to be covered by the health plans. If they wish to challenge the legality of the medication and win, it can be removed, but they can't just refuse to allow it to be provided.

Hobby Lobby doesn't want to exclude the "Morning After Pill" only. There really is no need for added concern over this medication, it is no different than most oral contraceptives or an IUD, which Hobby Lobby also wants the right to withhold from their female employees' medical packages.

Oral contraceptives don't always prevent conception. They prevent the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus, just like the morning after pill does. Since it can take up to 5 days for conception to occur, there is virtually no difference between the two. And since some women can't take the pill, for health reasons, the morning after pill, in cases of emergencies, seems like a good compromise.

These Hobby Lobby people have no right to step between a woman and her doctor.

reply to post by spinalremain


Yet Hobby Lobby is self-insured.

The Affordable Care Act, labeled Obamacare by opponents, requires insurance companies to offer several preventive care services, including contraception, to women at no cost. The rule took effect Aug. 1, and the requirement would kick in with Hobby Lobby, which is self-insured, on Jan. 1.

newsok.com...

Self-Insured

Self-insurance is a way for a business to lower ongoing premium expenditures and to take control of low-level risks within the organization. This is achieved by the business becoming its own insurer. This can be for a certain level of risk or a certain type of risk. The business creates a fund of money and manages the fund and any claims asserted.

businessinsure.about.com...

So they are their own insurers. And that is still not good enough?

(nod to wrabbit for tipping me on this)

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by kthxbai

 

I have issues with obama care, many issues, but if there is gonna be a federally mandated, gov't accepted standard healthcare plan, well, denying one group (women) certain health needs (birth control) is something that I find not acceptable!

There are some parts I support and other parts I oppose concerning the law, but it is the law and I have to abide by it whether I support it in its entirety or not. If we oppose it, then we need to address the parts we oppose and try to get them changes, not refuse to abide by them because we don't like them.


forgive the rambling please...
I don't like the laws involving not turning right on red at certain intersections, but I still have to abide by them. I don't agree with local stores not selling alcohol on Sundays (blue laws and yes, they are still in effect in many states), but I have to abide by them. I'd love to have prayer requests at the beginning of the work day, but it's not a law that others have to do that, so we don't. I can still pray on my own when and where I want as long as it doesn't interfer with my duties and I don't force others to do the same (we're supposed to pray in private anyway, not on the street corner... not that I work on the street corner )

As long as there is casual sex happening in the world (whether a street corner is involved or not), I would like for birth control to be available. Until we can ensure that all children are provided with a loving home and loving parents to care for them, there is no reason to bring any "unwanted" children into the world to add to the many who are already abused, unloved, uncared for or left to fend for themselves.

This of course is my opinion, not the law and probably not agreed on by everyone.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


Isn't a pass on having to pay taxes on the loot they make off their believers good enough for Christian-centric denominations, sects and cults? Get over yourselves. You're 2/3 of the believing people on the entire planet, and no one that isn't a professing Christian can ever be elected to political office in 99% of the geographical regions within the United States, so don't start bleating about how you're persecuted lambs being led to slaughter either. No one is buying your bullsh*t any longer. That miserable ship sailed a long time ago, and now you're just sounding like a bunch of crybabies who think tat the entire planet is supposed to roll over for everything you demand of it.

Well, maybe this will be the year when you get a wake-up call, and discover that the rest of us have had it with you. Probably not, but one can hope nonetheless.