Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

Originally posted by kthxbai

But equivalent to what you are saying, a company that serves pork in their cafeteria would be violating that employees freedom of religion because they make pork AVAILABLE.

The employee isn't required to USE the health insurance for birth control, it's only made available to them. There's a very, VERY big difference.

Making it available in their health plan doesn't violate their rights. Withholding it from their health plan would be violating their rights and that's what the employer is trying to do.

The health plan doesn't force them to use birth control. The employer wants to force them not to.

Wrong.

The company has the choice to serve pork or not. With Obamacare the company does not have a choice to provide it's employees an alternate health care plan.

reply to post by kthxbai

Thanks for that...

What problems caused by "Universal" Health care.

reply to post by kthxbai


It's the fact that the employer has to pay and there by funding contraceptives that violate the belief of the individual.

Also, they aren't arguing against all contraceptives they are arguing against having to pay for a plan that provides the morning after pill.

Originally posted by Timing


Wrong.

The company has the choice to serve pork or not. With Obamacare the company does not have a choice to provide it's employees an alternate health care plan.

Wrong again, they can give them an alternate health care plan, but that alternate plan has to cover at LEAST as much as the basic plan covers. They can offer one that covers MORE, but they can't offer one that covers LESS.
That's what the company is upset about. They don't want to give their employess the basic coverage.

reply to post by igniterevolution

Originally posted by igniterevolution
Real health insurance ( for the most part) doesn't cover elective procedure, and this is no different. Contraceptives and even the morning-after pill are not necessities.

Birth Control is not a procedure. It's preventative medicine, like a colonoscopy. People don't NEED to have a colonoscopy to live either, but it can prevent a life-threatening situation. So can birth control.

With this as part of modern healthcare, what's next, plastic surgery coverage required?

Unlike birth control, plastic surgery IS elective AND cosmetic. Preventing pregnancy is neither.

reply to post by kthxbai


So you agree then?

The employee doesn't have access to a plan that doesn't violate an employees freedom of religion by choosing a health care plan that doesn't cover the morning after pill.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


hobby lobby should just claim to be company of muslim faith.

then they wouldnt be touched with a 1,000 foot pole about what they can and cant do.

then maybe i could beat my wife there too, for honor of course!

Originally posted by Timing

Originally posted by kthxbai
...They get the standard plan that everybody gets...

There you go. The employees are being forced to have a health care plan that goes against their belief.

The employees can't bring suit until they are affected by this law. Which I don't think they will be until 2014.

While Hobby Lobby might lose their lawsuit, the employees most likely will win theirs.

edit on 31-12-2012 by Timing because: (no reason given)

I have a really strong suspicion that there won't be any employees that will sue the government over having too many benefit features available in their healthcare coverage plan. You kids sound foolish. If you actually think that grandstanding on this "issue" here is going to promote or inspire some sort of grassroots rebellion against insurance companies giving too much coverage to people for no additional premium charges, then you're as foolish as you sound.

I actually think that Hobby Lobby is going to end up like Papa John and his declining pizza business, and over the same idiotic drama. What is it with you xtians? Is it a requirement that you exchange 50 IQ points for your special get-out-of-hell-free pass? If not, then you're getting ripped off.

Originally posted by Timing
reply to post by kthxbai

 

So you agree then?

The employee doesn't have access to a plan that doesn't violate an employees freedom of religion by choosing a health care plan that doesn't cover the morning after pill.

No I don't agree.
What a plan covers does not violate an employees freedom of religion. I don't care if they offer coverage for chalk used to draw demonic symbols, it doesn't violate their freedom of religion because it doesn't REQUIRE them to use that coverage.
They are not required to use everything in their health plan that is covered by the plan. What part of this is so difficult for you?

If they told a covered person that said person had to TAKE the morning after pill, then they would be in violation, but they don't require them to take it or buy it or even get it prescribed. However, if someone with the plan chooses to do so, the plan covers it.

Originally posted by pavelivanov22


Well here comes Obama he is going to start taking away our rights little by little. Wait until Obamacare..

Sad to see Christians being denied there freedom of religion too..

Sad to see this in USA brought up by christian principles and was blessed by God, now that they take him away from everything, this country is going downhill and fast. defiantly living in the end times.





cnsnews.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

I couldn't find anything in any of the legislation that backs up these wild claims that the Obama Administration is indicating they can and will force Christians to act against their faith. I mean, it's a nice talking point for paranoid right-wingers, but it's just plain fantasy, at best. In reality, closer to a distortion of the facts, or outright lies.

Originally posted by NorEaster
I actually think that Hobby Lobby is going to end up like Papa John and his declining pizza business, and over the same idiotic drama. What is it with you xtians? Is it a requirement that you exchange 50 IQ points for your special get-out-of-hell-free pass? If not, then you're getting ripped off.

Now now, don't lump all Christians together, I happen to be one and I'm trying to explain it to the individuals who can't comprehend it. It's not a "Christian thing", it's an "extremist thing". Not all Christians are pyscho just like not all islamists are psycho due to the actions of a small, loud group of them

reply to post by NorEaster


Courts Halt Contriceptive Mandate

Notre Dame Students File Lawsuits

Wheaton College files Lawsuit

You think only Hobby Lobby has a problem with this mandate?

Originally posted by Timing
reply to post by NorEaster

 

Courst Halt Contriceptive Mandate

Notre Dame Students File Lawsuits

Wheaton College files Lawsuit

You think only Hobby Lobby has a problem with this mandate?

You think only Hobby Lobby is going to lose?

I've seen a lot of people saying things along the lines of, " People don't have to work for hobby lobby."

Let me ask you this...

What if someone who is currently employed by Hobby Lobby disagrees with their decision? Do you honestly think that they are going to quit their job given the current state of the job-market? In our current economic situation, having a child has the potential to ruin a person financially. Plan B/Morning After can, in some cases, be the only way to prevent pregnancy.

Answer this question based not on what the constitution says, but on what ethics say:

Should you exercise the freedom of religion to such an extent that it inflicts upon the well being of others?

reply to post by kthxbai


But here you say that:

They get the standard plan that everybody gets. They just aren't getting any "special treatment" by getting to pick and choose what they like. Also, it's the employer fighting it, not the employee.

So yes you do agree. They don't get the choice to choose a health care plan that doesn't violate their religious beliefs.

You obviously didn't read any of the links I provided.

Oh you poor oppressed Christians, I feel so sorry for you!


Gimme a damn break , this country has done nothing but cater to religious nutjobs the better part of the last century.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


But, isn't trying to force their own employees to follow the business owners religous beliefs(saying they can't have contraceptives or the option to get an abortion if they so choose) just as bad as their so-called argument that the government is forcing them to do the same? Seems HIGHLY hypocritical to me and, as such, negates the validity of said argument in my humble opinion. Far too many american people think they have the right to "have their cake and eat it too".

Besides, they aren't forcing anyone to act against their faith. Those who believe using contraceptives and abortions are a sin can choose NOT to exercise that part of the health plan; those who believe otherwise or have no religous beliefs to speak of CAN choose to exercise it. And that, my friends, is the basic premise of 'freedom of religion' as outlined by the Bill of Rights. The only way Obama's administration would be violating their rights is if the law said that Christians HAD to have abortions and use contraceptives which is not what it is doing.

**edit**BTW, kudos to my fellow Oklahomans for their sense and objectivety in upholding this. Which is saying a lot considering it's a very religous state to begin with. lol

I don't agree with Obama on much.

That said, the SCOTUS ruled Obamacare is the law of the land. We can't just have religious groups saying they don't agree based on their religion with certain laws.

Of course we also can't force people to take actions that are against their religion. But offering insurance that covers abortion is not something they are being forced to do. It's a consequence of a religious based organization playing in the world of commerce. The minute they hire employees they agree to play by the government's rules, not their own.

Hobby Lobby should just declare themselves a "church." Problem solved, plus no pesky taxes to pay.

Wait...come to think, that might not work.

But more seriously? If the people working there are Christians of the true and righteous sort, they won't need this coverage. If they aren't....

Hell, I give up.

Originally posted by Mad Simian
reply to post by pavelivanov22

 

But, isn't trying to force their own employees to follow the business owners religous beliefs(saying they can't have contraceptives or the option to get an abortion if they so choose) just as bad as their so-called argument that the government is forcing them to do the same?

And this is the point I'm trying to get across.

Obamacare doesn't provide a choice. The only choice you have is what the government says you should have.