Do I want to go to Heaven?

reply to post by pheonix358


As a child, I had nightmares about the "If I should die before I wake" situation where I died in my sleep and was taken off to Heaven where I had to sit in a heavenly choir and sing at this great deity and I couldn't look away and I couldn't move and I was stuck forever.

I woke up in cold sweats. Horrible.

reply to post by Byrd

That's pretty funny!

But if His handiwork in creating this life to begin with is something that we can all marvel at, why do we have such little faith in what might be in store, around this life, if not oblivion. Why are we so cynical about heaven? I guess it's those human conceptions or presumptions, but for all we know God is like an extreme sports adventure hero, who's into having one tremendous adventure after another, like a million vacations where unity is best experienced in the form of variety. Maybe heaven's better than what we can even imagine..? Anything's possible.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


"Do you believe a parent is bad when they discipline a child? "

No, that is discipline! But I am not going to drown the child. I am not going to burn the child to death, in fact I would not burn the child at all.

Wholesale slaughter of people is not discipline because the people have no ability to change their ways because, well, you've gone and killed them. Their Dead! Surely a booming voice from above together with some lightening bolts and an earthquake could get the point across.

Perhaps an ailment that prevents an erection until they change their ways may be in order. But no, He Kills them!

Discipline is used to change behaviour and thought patterns. Killing is Killing. How many completely innocent babies and children has God killed. After all of that slaughter, he is nowhere to be seen. There is no direction from divinity, there is only the silence of one who is piqued!

P

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Wow. You must have really been working out to do those back flips, there.

So your God is justified in flooding the earth, because 1/3 of his heavenly population rebelled against him, and he let them loose on humanity, so he killed humanity. Okay.

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were having too many pagan parties, Okay.

But why did he make the Israelites do his killing for him? Why did he lead them into sin and make them break the "Thou Shall Not Kill," "Thou Shall Not Steal" and "Thou Shall Not Covet Your Neighbor's Wife" commandments?

"Back flips"? Did you actually read what I posted, or skim through, and look for ways to argue?

I didn't say that two cities were destroyed because of parties. Those are your words, so you explain them.

The commandment actually reads, "Thou shall not murder.", if you look at the original language. Killing in a war isn't murder. The rest of what you posted is just as incorrect.

Do you have any comments on anything I actually said, or are you just trying to deflect from the facts?

Originally posted by pheonix358
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

"Do you believe a parent is bad when they discipline a child? "

No, that is discipline! But I am not going to drown the child. I am not going to burn the child to death, in fact I would not burn the child at all.

Of course not. As I stated, the punishment should fit the offense. There are only a few times that God took such drastic action, and you can be sure that the offenses warranted such action.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Wholesale slaughter of people is not discipline because the people have no ability to change their ways because, well, you've gone and killed them. Their Dead! Surely a booming voice from above together with some lightening bolts and an earthquake could get the point across.

You apparently missed the part where I stated that God knew those people would not change. Omniscient, remember? They're dead because they were utterly given over to evil, to disobedience, to violence. If you KNOW they would not change, ever, would you still try and rehabilitate someone? Knowing that it would never work? Knowing they would continue to do terrible things? We don't know what God might have done before He chose a flood. The point is, we do know that they were beyond redemption.

Originally posted by pheonix358
Discipline is used to change behaviour and thought patterns. Killing is Killing. How many completely innocent babies and children has God killed. After all of that slaughter, he is nowhere to be seen. There is no direction from divinity, there is only the silence of one who is piqued!

I mentioned both discipline and punishment. Punishment for some crimes is death. I already addressed the issue of children.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


God as the omnipotent is the one that created everything. He knows about the duality. I bet he knows a lot about duality and the philosophy behind it. So why did he go ahead regardless knowing full well the miserable confusion it would bring to humans who never asked to be created in the first place.

Before his creations there was true serenity. We never were and as such never wanted anything. But he decided to create us and along with that end serenity. If this is remotely true, this God cares nothing but for his own enjoyment. Are we just actors in a theater?

reply to post by Jepic

Before his creations there was true serenity. We never were and as such never wanted anything. But he decided to create us and along with that end serenity. If this is remotely true, this God cares nothing but for his own enjoyment. Are we just actors in a theater?

According to Shakespeare, yes.

"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players" - William Shakespeare

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


I speak not of the way he treats us, but of the bargain he offers us, and the consequences he threatens to deliver should we refuse his bargain. This is where the true injustice comes into play. I will not explain it further, as there are a dozen members here who have already stated the case a dozen different ways, not to mention the many times I myself have laid down my argument in dozens of threads preceding this one. If you are interested, have a look. My profile is full of such posts.

reply to post by pheonix358


One good thing about this, and it seems you have already made up your mind.
You don't have to go

reply to post by pheonix358


I am 62, and I asked these question as a young girl who was raised in an old fashioned fundamentalist Christian home.

Maybe the creator wants us to question.

What is the justification for the pain of human existence?
Maybe he wants us to grow up, make changes,

Does dealing with pain and adversity teach us?
Why are we experiencing life?

Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the more often and steadily reflection is occupied with them: the starry heaven above me and the moral law within me. Neither of them need I seek and merely suspect as if shrouded in obscurity or rapture beyond my own horizon; I see them before me and connect them immediately with my existence.

Kant

On a personal level, I get a glimpse of heaven within myself occasionally, and if I am walking in peace and close to the creator, I find I walk somewhere between heaven and earth.

Heaven is love, peace and forgiveness, music, a peaceful day sitting on a river bank, being reunited with lost loved ones.

Heaven is the same as earth without the pain and loss, when the suffering is over and our work on earth is done.

Heaven is earth renewed to its former glory.

Holy texts reflect man trying to understand our condition, past, present, future.

"the consciousness that everything which we experience, every 'fact,' is an element and only an element in 'the fact'; i.e. that, in being what it is, it is significant or symbolic of more." In short, every truth apprehended by finite intelligence must by its very nature only be the husk of a deeper truth, and by the aid of symbolism we are often enabled to catch a reflection of a truth which we are not capable of apprehending in any other way. Nettleship points out, for instance, that bread can only be itself, can only be food, by entering into something else, assimilating and being assimilated, and that the more it loses itself (what it began by being) the more it "finds itself" (what it is intended to be). If we follow carefully the analysis Nettleship makes of the action of bread in the physical world, we can see that to the man of mystic temper it throws more light than do volumes of sermons on what seems sometimes a hard saying, and what is at the same time the ultimate mystical counsel, "He that loveth his life shall lose it."
www.gutenberg.org...

The fact of the matter is, some people like hell.

Originally posted by Byrd
reply to post by pheonix358

 

As a child, I had nightmares about the "If I should die before I wake" situation where I died in my sleep and was taken off to Heaven where I had to sit in a heavenly choir and sing at this great deity and I couldn't look away and I couldn't move and I was stuck forever.

I woke up in cold sweats. Horrible.

And I was terrified of hell, and was obsessed with the book of Revelations and Armageddon, had many dreams of Christ coming with myriads of angels,

Spent many years praying for god to wait.

There is a scripture in the Bible I haven't been able to find that says it is wicked to wish for the end of days.

I'm Trying to get to Heaven before they close the door

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

I didn't say that two cities were destroyed because of parties. Those are your words, so you explain them.

This little lecture, by the Professor Brothers, explains my position on that.

(adult content warning)

The commandment actually reads, "Thou shall not murder.", if you look at the original language. Killing in a war isn't murder. The rest of what you posted is just as incorrect. Do you have any comments on anything I actually said, or are you just trying to deflect from the facts?

How do you define war? What was the purpose of the wars that the Israelites waged, if not simple conquest to move in and take over the territory for their own?

Deuteronomy 20:10
When you march up to attack a city, first make them an offer of peace.
11 If they accept your offer and open their gates to you, all the people of that city will become your slaves and work for you.
12 But if they do not make peace with you and fight you in battle, you should surround that city.
13 The Lord your God will give it to you. Then kill all the men with your swords, 14 and you may take everything else in the city for yourselves. Take the women, children, and animals, and you may use these things the Lord your God gives you from your enemies.

15 Do this to all the cities that are far away, that do not belong to the nations nearby.

Why does God pit human against humans in war? If God has a problem with the way HIS creation is behaving, it is HIS responsibility to take care of it. It is not a fair and just God that has a double standard of law, telling his people not to behave in a certain way, unless he tells them it's okay to behave that way to people who are strangers and not part of their extended community.

"Not murder, unless it's your enemy!" "Don't steal, unless it's your enemies stuff!" Don't covet your neighbors virgin daughters, unless they're part of the spoils of war!"

In 1873, Horatio Spafford wrote the words to the hymn "It is Well with My Soul" after the tragic death of his four daughters. (He wrote it on the ocean while sailing near the
spot where his daughters died

Much of the works in the bible have been lost in translation. It is a great work that has many insights, but one has to employ a good amount of imagination to see how it's teachings would have been perceived by those who authored and those who received when each part was written.

Every forecast of heaven was something that was achievable to the person reading the scripture during their lifetimes. Heaven was not meant to be something of a reward when you die, but more as something that you strive to find while you are still alive. The root idea was exploited as something that could be used toward security and wealth, both illusions that people like to pretend are real. In the act of creating a written word, our ancestors inadvertently knocked the future off of a path that left each individual connected to the earth under our feet and locked us into a mysterious unattainable fairy tale where we do not have to pay for our sins in real time, but can push them all the way back to the point where we are dead before we become accountable.

This was the most damaging thing that man has done since he was created. We went from a population that relied on it's real time connection to the earth, where we pay for our sins in the here and now, to one where we are completely disconnected from the responsibility we have for the earth and her many children. We are about to pay dearly for thinking this way over the last couple of thousand years.

I do not believe that the bible is where this insane way of thinking started. In fact I believe that if looked at closely enough, one can see that the teachings were in effort to drive us away from this doomed path, but the slight editing of the words that took place, set us right back in the place that the "Original Posters" had warned us about.

We have arrived at a place where it is easy for one to step outside of the box and use his imagination to gleam truth out of these works. Now is the time where we have to start pushing truth to the forefront of our conversations. Not in any preaching way, but in a way the clearly relates action and consequence, one that clarifies any type of balance that you can find in our current works as a species. The future will be supported by a foundation of exploited balance. It is a hard term to grasp, but it must become the focus again of our human community if we are to achieve a sustainable future where we live within our means.

A moment in heaven is worth much more than a lifetime in hell. Heaven is not found after one dies, but is found when one loses his self importance and gains a true relation to all of Gods creation. Hell is walking through a lifetime without ever experiencing that connection.

Just my thoughts, thanks for the good read.

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by KrzYma
reply to post by spy66

 

The Big Bang is still just a scientific THEORY!
Your God created all in 7 days, remember??? not some billions years ago... hypocrite!!!

The Big Bang is a theory that fits in with verse 3 in genesis. Did you know that?

Your God created all in 7 days, remember??? not some billions years ago... hypocrite!!!

Those are your words not mine. You have no right to speak on my behalf. I have never said my God created all in 7 days.

yeah yeah... you talk about Jesus so I know what this religion is saying...
anyway, very interesting how this holly books of yours are rewritten to fits your needs

if there was only one truth, why correct is all the time ??

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

Wow. You must have really been working out to do those back flips, there.

So your God is justified in flooding the earth, because 1/3 of his heavenly population rebelled against him, and he let them loose on humanity, so he killed humanity. Okay.

He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because they were having too many pagan parties, Okay.

But why did he make the Israelites do his killing for him? Why did he lead them into sin and make them break the "Thou Shall Not Kill," "Thou Shall Not Steal" and "Thou Shall Not Covet Your Neighbor's Wife" commandments?

thanks for this video

the big big problem with religious people is, they "believe" they do the right thing! there is no rational way to explain any of the real truth to them. they are blinded by those believes and they, as they believe tell him to, will kill you for anything you say that don't fits into they hippocratic small-minded brain convolutions.

As long as there is any believe based religion in this world, people will smash, burn and kill other human beings... in name of God !!

religious God = hate, suffer, misery

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I didn't say that two cities were destroyed because of parties. Those are your words, so you explain them.

This little lecture, by the Professor Brothers, explains my position on that.

*snip*

I don't watch "adult content" videos. Explain your position in your words, please.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyesThe commandment actually reads, "Thou shall not murder.", if you look at the original language. Killing in a war isn't murder. The rest of what you posted is just as incorrect. Do you have any comments on anything I actually said, or are you just trying to deflect from the facts?

Originally posted by windwordHow do you define war? What was the purpose of the wars that the Israelites waged, if not simple conquest to move in and take over the territory for their own?

Go read those chapters, and seek the answers.

I get the distinct feeling that you do not really want an explanation, but simply want to try and discredit Christianity, the Bible, and God. If that is your goal, I cannot aid you. If you truly want answers, start with a Bible, and prayer that God will show you His truth. I don't have any issue discussing various things in the Bible, but I am not going to simply argue back and forth with someone that refuses to examine or think about anything I say.
Matthew 7:6 -
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Originally posted by Jepic
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

God as the omnipotent is the one that created everything. He knows about the duality. I bet he knows a lot about duality and the philosophy behind it. So why did he go ahead regardless knowing full well the miserable confusion it would bring to humans who never asked to be created in the first place.

Before his creations there was true serenity. We never were and as such never wanted anything. But he decided to create us and along with that end serenity. If this is remotely true, this God cares nothing but for his own enjoyment. Are we just actors in a theater?

Show me anything in the Bible that speaks of duality. You seem to be crossing the ideas of various beliefs. Not all belief systems are compatible.

God created us for His own reasons. Perhaps He wanted people around so that He could show us His love. He created us in a perfect world, full of wonderful things, and He gave us free will to decide if we would love Him back, or turn away. If you want love, you can't demand it. It must be freely given. Love demanded isn't love at all.

Before His creations, there was no Earth. Serenity in what, exactly? before His creations there was no sun, no moon, no stars, no light.

He created us, and He loves us. He knew, before He started, that people would screw things up, and from before he started, He had a plan for that as well. A way to bring things back to that beautiful perfection that none since Adam and Eve have seen. He lowered Himself to our level, and lived among us, and died for us, paying our debt, taking on our punishment, so that we could still be with Him, if only we accept that gift. Do you really believe that He suffered and died because He enjoyed that? That supposition doesn't match what He did.

He gave us life. What we do with it is up to us. Are you upset that you have life in the first place? No, we don't ask to be created, but that doesn't mean God is wrong for making us.

No, we are not actors. We are part of the story, but we make our own decisions, and write our own lines. he knows everything we will do and say, and has from the beginning, but that doesn't mean He chose those actions and words for us. Foreknowledge isn't the same as direction.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I speak not of the way he treats us, but of the bargain he offers us, and the consequences he threatens to deliver should we refuse his bargain. This is where the true injustice comes into play. I will not explain it further, as there are a dozen members here who have already stated the case a dozen different ways, not to mention the many times I myself have laid down my argument in dozens of threads preceding this one. If you are interested, have a look. My profile is full of such posts.

edit on 30-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

The bargain? He gave His life, in great suffering, so that every single rotten thing we do can be forgiven. All He asks in return is that we believe in Him, in what He did for us, and accept that gift. We can choose that, and be with Him for eternity, cradled in perfect love, or we can reject Him, and be in a place that is what it would be, were we left to our own devices. A world without God would become, sooner or later, a literal Hell.

So, we can follow Him, and have everything good, or reject Him, and have everything bad. How is that injustice? He created all of it. He set it up so that we can have it all, even when we break all the rules, if we simply accept Him as Savior. He gives us the choice in this matter, to be with Him, or to be apart from Him. Would you follow a God that gave you no option? Could you love a God that gave you no choice?

Let me see if I can explain this better. Say you have a man that kidnaps a woman, and holds her in a cellar room. He gives her everything she needs physically; food, water, entertainment, books, fresh air through a window, company, and so forth. He tells here that she can only have those things if she tells him daily that she loves him. She isn't allowed to refuse, and any attempts to do so are ignored. The one thing he does not offer her is a real choice. Do you think that woman could actually love that man? Is that what you want from God? Everything offered, and no consequences for anything we do? Do you believe it would be reasonable for God to offer everything, allow us to break every rule, to rape, to kill, to steal from each other, to destroy things, to fight, to lie, to act in any fashion we wanted, and never suffer a single consequence as a result of our actions? Should we be allowed to live with hate, and have Him simply erase the consequences? I don't think anyone wants such a world.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


OK, I have to bring my old arguments again...

I hope you realize you will end up in Hell... why? because you don't believe in that God other religions do, Muslims for example

ok, I agree, this is mean... I'm a devil

speaking of devil... Satan is whispering his lies all the time

so... how do you know the writers of your holly books were inspired by god and not satan?
all that evil that religion has done..??. all the evidences of suffer and misery...??

why don't you accept, goodness comes not from some books or believes or hipocratic false prophets.
it is in you, you don't need a guy with a gray beard in the sky to be a good person.
you don't need punishment if you do something wrong unintentionally
you don't need religion to tell you how to be good to others
you don't need believe rather than knowledge
you don't need eternity if you have now