Do I want to go to Heaven?

reply to post by Texture


What does perfect even mean? What is the point of being perfect? Perfection is a mundane existence.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

What does perfect even mean? What is the point of being perfect? Perfection is a mundane existence.

One man's mundane existence is another's Shangri-La. Perfect is being one with the universe. No hate, no pain, no suffering, no black, no white, no democrats, no republicans, no religion, etc...

Mundane? I disagree...It is being without the restrictions and short-comings that come with being human...

Originally posted by Texture
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

What does perfect even mean? What is the point of being perfect? Perfection is a mundane existence.

One man's mundane existence is another's Shangri-La. Perfect is being one with the universe. No hate, no pain, no suffering, no black, no white, no democrats, no republicans, no religion, etc...

Mundane? I disagree...It is being without the restrictions and short-comings that come with being human...

edit on 5-1-2013 by Texture because: (no reason given)

So nothingness is in fact perfection....

reply to post by jheated5


Nothingness is not perfect. Nothingness is the absence of both flaw and capability. This is not perfection, because perfection is to exist in some form.

reply to post by jheated5

So nothingness is in fact perfection....

Well said. Yes. This is the heart of Buddhism.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Nothingness is not perfect. Nothingness is the absence of both flaw and capability. This is not perfection, because perfection is to exist in some form.

Nothingness does exist. It is what we experienced before we were born. It is what we experience when we are asleep and not dreaming.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jheated5

 

Nothingness is not perfect. Nothingness is the absence of both flaw and capability. This is not perfection, because perfection is to exist in some form.

I didn't realize perfection had to take on some form or have some capability.... You can't add or take away anything from nothing to make it better, it's lack of form is why I labeled it as perfection....

reply to post by jheated5

I didn't realize perfection had to take on some form or have some capability.... You can't add or take away anything from nothing to make it better, it's lack of form is why I labeled it as perfection....

Allow me to explain in greater detail then. Perfection is, by definition, to leave nothing wanting. It is literally as good as it can get. How can something be as refined as possible when it does not exist? Nothingness is a lack of attribute, not a perfect balance. The number 0 is not a definition of balance, it is a definition of absence. The same goes for nothingness.

The elimination of potential for imperfection is not the same as the presence of perfection.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


No I understand what you mean, I'm just saying it's lack of attributes is what makes it perfect sooo Nothing (perfect) Something (perfect) and the closest to something quantifiable would be a perfect circle and I don't even know if that exists either.....

reply to post by jheated5

No I understand what you mean, I'm just saying it's lack of attributes is what makes it perfect sooo Nothing (perfect) Something (perfect) and the closest to something quantifiable would be a perfect circle and I don't even know if that exists either.....

Everything we know about perfection comes from what humankind desires from perfection. What perfect is there in the lack of room for improvement? What perfection is there in the end of a road? Just existence. Pure existence. Nothing except the enjoyment of no challenges. Without challenge, there is no triumph. Without triumph, no joy. Without joy, no meaning. And without meaning, no purpose.

Perfection is the same as having no purpose. Is that what you want in life? Is that the goal of our species? To have no purpose because there is no challenge? Perfection is a prison of stagnancy.

Take this circle, this pixelated circle. It shows that there is no clear cut definition to anything, because it is always comprised of smaller elements giving shades of nuance to the nature of all that exists. The closer you look, the more you see hundreds of overlapping segments that unite to create a larger picture from the sum of its definitions. Is a tree just a tree? No, it is an indescribable number of cells dancing in a process that continually engages in a game of give-and-take with the world around it, interacting with a myriad of varying organisms that work together to create a masterpiece that people will look at in wonder as the seasons change, that people will sit under for shade, that children will climb and scrape themselves on, that will provide a perch for a singing bird blessing passersby with its music or the occasional photographer with a memory that will last for centuries. A tree is not just a tree. It is a learning experience. Just like this circle. It is flawed, and that is what makes it perfect.

That's my idea of perfection. Because when perfection is just an end, it provides nothing except a reason to want more. That is your perfection. My standards allow room for growth, for learning, for life. There is no reason to set my standards at the finish line, because I don't give myself a finish line. Why race at all? Take a moment to stop and look at that tree. Pick a flower. Say hello to someone. Make a child laugh. We race through life, never realizing how much we leave undone with every quick step we take.

My perfection gives us a reason to DO more, because it will never be completely finished. An eternity of creation, just waiting for us to notice it. How's that for perfection?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Basically this is my reason for being Agnostic, I am looking for the sum of all parts not just the ending.... Since I'm always looking and learning I will most likely never find the real answer to the important questions but the journey to get there I think is better than the end result..... I have a hard time thinking about or worrying about perfection because it's something I can't really fathom, just like wrapping your mind around infinity....

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Look at "nothing" as the stripping away of everything we carry around as humans. The removal of the baggage of life, removal of the ego, removal of everything human. What is left?

Human is only temporary but the soul is eternal. Our human "stuff" is meaningless with regards to eternity.

Perfection would be the removal of all this bad stuff that we have carried around all of our lives. When we are not human we are perfect. The more we remove while we are living this life, the happier and more serene this life will be. None of this human nonsense exists when we are not human. Stop worrying about the future and stop feeling guilty or angry over the past. Neither exists. The only thing that exists is right now.

If you can live "right now" all of the time, then you are perfect (as long as you do good and don't do evil of course). Nothing is missing...and yet everything is gone...

Originally posted by Texture
reply to post by MarkJS

 

Like I said... sincere questioning is a very good thing. It's all in the attitude of the questioner. See, I'm warning you as a friend. Be careful, because it's only your eternal soul at stake.

Hi Mark. First of all, you are discussing Jesus and the question posed is about God.

How do I put this delicately? hmm... well.... I guess I just have to say it: Jesus Is God. But don't take my mere word for it... ask Him yourself. 'Cause... if He is God... which I believe that He is... Jesus is well able to answer that question Himself. Make sure you ask Jesus.... not some cheap substitute.

But, why the need for a warning? (and what does "warning you as a friend" even mean?) My eternal soul is at stake? (more Fear of God stuff) My eternal soul is just fine - always has been and always will be.

That, my friend, is another question I would suggest that you ask..... because He sees, and He knows. It's easy... say something simple like: "how is my soul Jesus?" "does it need improving?"

IMHO...in this post you seem to be speaking for God. What are your qualifications?

I'm no-one special... Just quoting from the Bible.... It's what the Bible says.

See how it all fits together?
No...

well.... God gives us, mere mortals, an opportunity to be made into His Image, again. But it is accepted only by a few. This is a profoundly sad fact, but expected. Because Jesus died for everyone. God the Father loved the world soooo much that He... (quote below)

John 3:16

New King James Version (NKJV)


16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 NKJV

That should serve as a good start.

reply to post by MarkJS


Let's agree to disagree. I'm not a Christian so Jesus is not God. Jesus was a mortal man. What is a cheap substitute for Jesus?

I don't talk to Jesus. I talk to God. Jesus died some 2000ish years ago.

Quote the Bible all you want. It obviously means something to you and that is great. For me, it is a book written by mortal men to control other men (and women). I love when Christians quote the Bible to prove their points, using a book written by mortal men for questionable reasons to explain the divine.

An opportunity to be made in His image? What is God's image? Do you have a picture of God? I thought you all believed that ALL men were created in His image? Genesis says nothing about a chosen few. You believe only a chosen few were? Why do we all look pretty much the same then? Why does the bible not discuss a chosen few? Does the NT discuss a chosen few? Why does it contradict the OT? Was God wrong in the OT? Is God ever wrong?

Your dogma goes down many dead end streets...

reply to post by Texture


It's funny because for being such an omniscient omnipotent omnipresent and almighty being, this "God" acts an awful lot like a vulnerable, insecure, self-absorbed mortal. Or a human, in other words.

reply to post by Texture


Hi Texture!

Welcome to ATS! I love your posts and your avatar too.

Genesis says nothing about a chosen few. You believe only a chosen few were? Why do we all look pretty much the same then? Why does the bible not discuss a chosen few? Does the NT discuss a chosen few? Why does it contradict the OT? Was God wrong in the OT? Is God ever wrong?

I think I can help you here. The following verse, from the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy, chapter 32, verse 8, that was recently found (1947) with the Dead Sea Scrolls, reveals some startling information about the Jewish patriarch, Yahweh.

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
fuzzyquark.comxa.com...

You see, Yahweh, the Hebrew God, was only one of (some say 70) the sons of El Elyon. Yahweh was given the people of Jacob, as his charge, his "inheritance", the grandson of Abraham. Jacob was the twin of Esau, who was born first. But Esau paid homage to a different god.

Later, the Hebrews penned their Bible to make sure that Yahweh was the only god and that he was also the creator of the universe! (LOL) They had the "best" god, the only god and therefore, you get the "chosen" people.

But if you read further down chapter 32 of Deuteronomy, you see that Yahweh wasn't very happy with his "inheritance" and his duty! He would have killed all of Jacob's children, if it were not for fear that his "enemies" (brothers and sisters) would take credit for his demise, when it comes to handling and understanding humanity.

Personally, I can't help but think that if the story of the "Divine Counsel" is true, they were all space aliens, here to colonize the planet. But it either went wrong, or they did what they set out to do, because they 'aint here no more!

But, the sons/daughters (the Bible is so misogynistic!) of El Elyon can account for Krishna, Odin, Zeus, Kane and Pele. etc.

reply to post by windword


So where did El Elyon come from?

Originally posted by Texture
reply to post by MarkJS

 

Let's agree to disagree. I'm not a Christian so Jesus is not God. Jesus was a mortal man. What is a cheap substitute for Jesus?

That would be any other spiritual entity, other than God/Jesus himself.... Such as familiar spirits, spirits that pose as people that are passed on, and the like.

I don't talk to Jesus. I talk to God. Jesus died some 2000ish years ago.

That'll Work! So then, ask God.... "who are you?", "show yourself to me", or similar.... and be open-minded about the answer. Because you see, you're right, Jesus did die 2000 years ago.... but the magical thing is that He resurrected.

An opportunity to be made in His image?

Yes

What is God's image?

When you see Jesus, you see God. Jesus says to one of His disciples, who was having confusion about His diety, like many these days:

John 14:9

New King James Version (NKJV)

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:9 NKJV

Your dogma goes down many dead end streets...

You shouldn't be afraid to ask God anything..... Go ahead and ask what is above. That would be an excellent start....

reply to post by MarkJS

You shouldn't be afraid to ask God anything..... Go ahead and ask what is above. That would be an excellent start....

I'm not afraid of asking God anything. Where did this come from? I discuss with God what I choose to. I'm not concerned about the things above, You are and that is fine. All is as it should be and I am good with God. I ask God to do his will with some challenges I come across in life. He does, I meditate to clear my mind so I can receive answers. Sometimes I do...

Excellent start to what Mark?

reply to post by windword


Thank you for the welcome. I have to admit there is some wild stuff in your post but I am going to do some research on it all. Interesting stuff. I like to study all faiths and religions, beliefs, etc...