Do I want to go to Heaven?

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I speak not of the way he treats us, but of the bargain he offers us, and the consequences he threatens to deliver should we refuse his bargain. This is where the true injustice comes into play. I will not explain it further, as there are a dozen members here who have already stated the case a dozen different ways, not to mention the many times I myself have laid down my argument in dozens of threads preceding this one. If you are interested, have a look. My profile is full of such posts.

edit on 30-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Let me see if I can explain this better. Say you have a man that kidnaps a woman, and holds her in a cellar room. He gives her everything she needs physically; food, water, entertainment, books, fresh air through a window, company, and so forth. He tells here that she can only have those things if she tells him daily that she loves him. She isn't allowed to refuse, and any attempts to do so are ignored. The one thing he does not offer her is a real choice. Do you think that woman could actually love that man? Is that what you want from God? Everything offered, and no consequences for anything we do? Do you believe it would be reasonable for God to offer everything, allow us to break every rule, to rape, to kill, to steal from each other, to destroy things, to fight, to lie, to act in any fashion we wanted, and never suffer a single consequence as a result of our actions? Should we be allowed to live with hate, and have Him simply erase the consequences? I don't think anyone wants such a world.

WOW... you are cutting your own throat right now...
according to your holly book, the Bible, God actually said to rape and murder and burn and have no mercy

I see you want God as a reason to be good... I understand
be good, but as I said in my previews post, you don't need biblical God for this ! POINT!

religion is based on suffer, you don't need to suffer !!

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

Go read those chapters, and seek the answers.

I did read those chapters, and presented them to you for you to defend your position that God was justified in leading the Israelites to kill, rape and pillage. It's you that can't defend it.

I get the distinct feeling that you do not really want an explanation, but simply want to try and discredit Christianity, the Bible, and God. If that is your goal, I cannot aid you.

I am only presenting the scriptures that back up my claim that the God of the Old Testament is NOT a good, loving, merciful and forgiving God.

If you truly want answers, start with a Bible, and prayer that God will show you His truth.

I did not post in this thread to find answers to why I should worship your God, or for you to talk me down. The God of the Old Testament was a murderer, a baby killer and a thief and a liar. That's the truth.

I don't have any issue discussing various things in the Bible, but I am not going to simply argue back and forth with someone that refuses to examine or think about anything I say. Matthew 7:6 - Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

You have refused to address my question, "Why does God have men do his killing for him?" There are other ways a God could handle things besides initiating blood baths. He could have made the population sterile, thereby eliminating another generation of sinners. He could have done a number of things besides ordering his people to break the commandments

You have refused to address the scripture that I have presented that proves that God condones wreckless murder. You have nothing to offer but your opinion that God is good and we have no right to question his methods. I disagree and have put forth scripture to back up my claim. You're free to walk away and keep to your hypocrisy.

reply to post by windword


calm down, relax, you never win arguing with believers.
they believe but don't see

if God exist, what I don't claim to be truth, it's nothing any religion is telling us
but I would let an opportunity open for the "unknown"

not believe, just a term of condition

I think its high time satan & god came down off their high horses and had a few beers.

Surely they have better things to do than all this 'Thou Shalt' and Eternal Torment bull#.

The whole scenario is quite silly when you think it through. Some old bloke in a frock with a beard running around all day checking and fussing over his creation while old bealzeebub cackles away & heats his furnace for the next intake.

Think they both need to get a life.

Originally posted by KrzYma
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

OK, I have to bring my old arguments again...

I hope you realize you will end up in Hell... why? because you don't believe in that God other religions do, Muslims for example

ok, I agree, this is mean... I'm a devil

speaking of devil... Satan is whispering his lies all the time

so... how do you know the writers of your holly books were inspired by god and not satan?
all that evil that religion has done..??. all the evidences of suffer and misery...??

why don't you accept, goodness comes not from some books or believes or hipocratic false prophets.
it is in you, you don't need a guy with a gray beard in the sky to be a good person.
you don't need punishment if you do something wrong unintentionally
you don't need religion to tell you how to be good to others
you don't need believe rather than knowledge
you don't need eternity if you have now

edit on 30-12-2012 by KrzYma because: (no reason given)

No, I have a relationship with the one true God, and I have no worries at all.

How do I know? Well, none of those others died for anyone. They are all either useless or selfish and harmful. People have done evil, and them doing it in the name of religion doesn't mean that God is evil; only that sinful people can be.

I don't know any "guy with a gray beard in the sky", but I do know the Creator of everything.
Sins are active, knowing disobedience, not accidents. I have the Holy Spirit for guidance, not some man-made system. Our knowledge is very limited. It is also flawed at times. Depending on that alone would be foolish. We are eternal beings, so it's pointless to claim we don't "need" eternity.

Originally posted by KrzYma

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I speak not of the way he treats us, but of the bargain he offers us, and the consequences he threatens to deliver should we refuse his bargain. This is where the true injustice comes into play. I will not explain it further, as there are a dozen members here who have already stated the case a dozen different ways, not to mention the many times I myself have laid down my argument in dozens of threads preceding this one. If you are interested, have a look. My profile is full of such posts.

edit on 30-12-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Let me see if I can explain this better. Say you have a man that kidnaps a woman, and holds her in a cellar room. He gives her everything she needs physically; food, water, entertainment, books, fresh air through a window, company, and so forth. He tells here that she can only have those things if she tells him daily that she loves him. She isn't allowed to refuse, and any attempts to do so are ignored. The one thing he does not offer her is a real choice. Do you think that woman could actually love that man? Is that what you want from God? Everything offered, and no consequences for anything we do? Do you believe it would be reasonable for God to offer everything, allow us to break every rule, to rape, to kill, to steal from each other, to destroy things, to fight, to lie, to act in any fashion we wanted, and never suffer a single consequence as a result of our actions? Should we be allowed to live with hate, and have Him simply erase the consequences? I don't think anyone wants such a world.

WOW... you are cutting your own throat right now...
according to your holly book, the Bible, God actually said to rape and murder and burn and have no mercy

I see you want God as a reason to be good... I understand
be good, but as I said in my previews post, you don't need biblical God for this ! POINT!

religion is based on suffer, you don't need to suffer !!

No, that is the claim of those that don't read it, and seek to tear it apart, because they would rather have their sinful lives than accept any personal responsibility, or admit that they will be held accountable.

An honest look at the world shows that, without God, people become utterly depraved, and things turn bad faster than you can blink. Plus, it isn't about what I "want", but about what IS.

reply to post by pheonix358


I would suggest that this is an un-winnable debate, as it was offered; We are limited to a human, life under the sun, perspective. We have only 70 or so years to figure things out and that locked in time & space with 5 senses. The injustices that we endure here when viewed against the back drop of a potential eternal existence begin to look petty. And I know this is easy to say and there could be some tragedy around the corner that could easily make me eat my words about our suffering appearing petty.
Who is to say that any injustices we endure here will not be paid back several fold in an eternal existence, and I believe that there is something in the bible to that effect.
When viewed from an eternal, divine perspective our lives can be seen to be not so big a deal, I know that sounds kind of psychotic and this coming from a person whose profession is preserving life.
Finally, one of your debate team pointed out that you were not debating Gods right to do as he pleases but wether he is good or not, I would suggest that if God has the right then he is just and if he is just then he is good.
This question, God is good/not, I do not get hung up on too much. What I would ask God is this; Seeing that we are in this existence only 70 years or so, limited to 5 senses and with little observable information why is our eternal destiny decided in this tiny little spec of time? Again I am speaking from a human perspective, but then again I am....human.

Originally posted by windword
I did read those chapters, and presented them to you for you to defend your position that God was justified in leading the Israelites to kill, rape and pillage. It's you that can't defend it.

There are no passages with God telling people to rape or murder. You have not presented any such verses; you simply claim that verses say something they do not say. Indefensible position you have there.

Originally posted by windword
I am only presenting the scriptures that back up my claim that the God of the Old Testament is NOT a good, loving, merciful and forgiving God.

No, you presented verses about one nation conquering another, under the command of God. You choose to ignore all of the verses showing that He is, in fact, good, loving, and forgiving.

Originally posted by windword
I did not post in this thread to find answers to why I should worship your God, or for you to talk me down. The God of the Old Testament was a murderer, a baby killer and a thief and a liar. That's the truth.

You posted to insult Christianity, God, and as a result, Christians. You specifically posted to me, when I posted to the OP, and attacked everything I stated. If you didn't want a debate, you should not have addressed my post. I am not "talking you down" by responding to your negative attacks regarding my posts.

Originally posted by windword
You have refused to address my question, "Why does God have men do his killing for him?" There are other ways a God could handle things besides initiating blood baths. He could have made the population sterile, thereby eliminating another generation of sinners. He could have done a number of things besides ordering his people to break the commandments

I have already explained all of this. I am not going to repeat myself, simply because you choose to disregard what I stated.

Originally posted by windword
You have refused to address the scripture that I have presented that proves that God condones wreckless murder. You have nothing to offer but your opinion that God is good and we have no right to question his methods. I disagree and have put forth scripture to back up my claim. You're free to walk away and keep to your hypocrisy.

There is no such Scripture in the Bible. You have offered nothing but your own opinions, and you expect me to simply accept them as truth. I also never stated that no one could question things, and have, in fact, stated that I had no problems discussing these issues. You have a mistaken impression that Christians don't study anything, question anything, or know anything but some "brainwashing". I posted in this thread to address the issues that the OP brought up, not to debate with people that simply want to tear down any Christian opinions. You are free to walk away, or stay. I will post as I please. If you don't like the content, don't read my posts. If you want to debate, maybe you could start some way other than accusing me of doing "back flips".

One that wants answers doesn't presume to know the truth before receiving said answers.

reply to post by temporalchameleon


“There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.”
Isn’t that laughably convenient? If you think for yourself, you’ll end up dead? I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but that sounds like brainwashing to me.

That is a gloss, a huge oversimplification of that passage and if someone spun it to you like that shame on them. However, sadly, there are those that think that is what it means.
In actuality there is wisdom in that verse; have you ever been really convinced of something only to find it wrong? I am not talking religion but all areas of life. The next time you are convinced of something a consideration of this verse could help you to take a second look at it and perhaps save you from a mistake.
This passage can be found in proverbs which are observations that elcit a response and were meant to cause a person to think the opposite of what you are saying.

Originally posted by KrzYma
reply to post by mideast

 

yeah, you are right, I'm out of this thread...

reminds me of something I've heard a long time ago

"you can not argue with an idiot, you have to come down to his level for that, but he will overtop you with experience..."

You flamed Murgatroid for quoting something then you go on to do it yourself.
Anyway check this out;

"you cannot argue with an idiot, you have to come down to his level for that, but he will overtop you with experience"

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you be like him yourself". Prov. 26:4

I think Solomon said it first.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


I do respect your beliefs!

I just do not see things the same way you do with your beliefs. You said

"An honest look at the world shows that, without God, people become utterly depraved, and things turn bad faster than you can blink. Plus, it isn't about what I "want", but about what IS."

I see the Crusades where thousands upon thousands perished.
I see The Conquistadors destroying whole cultures in God's name after The Pope divided the world up.
I see Priests buggering Boys and raping girls and the Church protecting it's ass.
Nuns and Brothers beating children and more raping of little ones.
I see the Pope doing deals with Nazis to preserve it's wealth.
The Catholic Church is the largest, richest and most powerful multinational corporation on the face of the planet, all in the name of God!
I see God dealing out death time and time and time again.
I see South Sea Islanders having peaceful, idyllic life styles destroyed by Preachers.

Where, Oh where is this loving God!

P

Originally posted by pheonix358
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

I do respect your beliefs!

I just do not see things the same way you do with your beliefs. You said

"An honest look at the world shows that, without God, people become utterly depraved, and things turn bad faster than you can blink. Plus, it isn't about what I "want", but about what IS."

I see the Crusades where thousands upon thousands perished.
I see The Conquistadors destroying whole cultures in God's name after The Pope divided the world up.
I see Priests buggering Boys and raping girls and the Church protecting it's ass.
Nuns and Brothers beating children and more raping of little ones.
I see the Pope doing deals with Nazis to preserve it's wealth.
The Catholic Church is the largest, richest and most powerful multinational corporation on the face of the planet, all in the name of God!
I see God dealing out death time and time and time again.
I see South Sea Islanders having peaceful, idyllic life styles destroyed by Preachers.

Where, Oh where is this loving God!

P

I can understand where you are coming from as well, and respect your right to those beliefs. Your life, your decisions. All of the actions you mention are from the Catholic Church. Yes, they have, through history, done a lot of terrible things. There is more than one reason that a lot of people split off from that body. However, that is people dealing out death and more, using God as an excuse, not God Himself. As a non-Catholic, totally agree that there are serious problems there! I do believe, though, that those who use His name to excuse evil actions will pay a hefty price in the end.

People mess things up all the time, and there are a LOT of churches that make serious errors. It can be frustrating to see all these terrible things happening, and God not acting. There are times I am impatient with it myself. In the end, it's about faith. For you, it's something you clearly have on your mind, so discussion, and looking at all the angles, is never a bad thing.

reply to post by LafingWithTears


Perhaps it is an oversimplification… and nobody has “spun” it to me. If it is a foolish interpretation, it is my own and I take full responsibility for it.

Let me clarify my story: This verse was used against me when I questioned the validity of the core beliefs of the church I grew up in. I’m quite sure such proverbs have their proper place, but in my situation they were used to reinforce a belief system that was incompatible with my path.

Is my path one that leads to death? Absolutely. Everyone must confront death at some point in their life. It’s an inevitable consequence of living.

“Man must learn to increase his sense of responsibility and of the fact that everything he does will have its consequences.”

“In every vital activity it is the path that matters.”

Originally posted by karen61560

Originally posted by mideast
The one who is your creator and knows you better than yourself will provide heaven.

Situations are different there.

It is not like giving a candy and locking the door.

How do you know how it is? You dont. If it exists at all you couldnt possible have any idea what its like because no one comes back to tell us how it is. No one. You go by that filthy word FAITH. The word that tells normally smart people to believe in something they cannot prove. That filthy word that has ruined so many lives. All ya gotta do is believe.

I believe in my eyes.

This universe is something which was created for purpose.

The question is "what is the purpose"

Every faith has some answer for that.

Science has well proved that there is order.

So I ask "who is keeping it?"

I don't folow blindly.

+ I see many smart people who care the power , money , fame and other things in this world.

they are true smart people. We are just dumb little nothing people. I just have faith and this is all I have.

I don't need to see resurrection to believe it as well as I don't need to see air to breath.

All I know is that I have done much wrong things and the one who sees me is letting me live and use what he has created.

You don't have to trust 100 %.

If you don't like to be an enslaver of people , it will be simple to believe in god.

If you don't like be like elites , it will be easy to be one free human.

How do you know how it is?

I don't know much. Only a little.

Important thing is that I believe , I don't support any wrong action and I don't like to commit crimes. So what is there to be afraid of ?

Unless I have been ungrateful and forgotten to thank my creator , I will feel the shame.

So , there is not much to do while I am not Hitler.

But Hitlers want you to support them and they want you to be their tools.

That is how they invent this Materialism to enslve people . They tell you that you are hungry and they show you the candy.

They tell you that you need that.

I told what I could tell.

peace.

I wholeheartedly believe that there is a God and that there is no way that their can't be. I have studied Physics in College and still don't see how we could possibly get something from nothing. All energy is conserved or transferred so how did the great energy of the whole Universe get it's energy? Even the smartest scientists in the world can't explain what would have caused the "Big Bang" and where the energy came from.

However, on another note If I could ask GOD one question when in his presence I might get kicked out of heaven. The reason for this is because my question would be: Where did you come from?

Is it blasphemy to ask God where he came from because there has to always be a something or somewhere it came from. It's the which came first the Chicken or the Egg question but even more complex because there had to be something that created all of this and something that created the creator and so on and so on. So where did this chain really start and how is that even possible.

Can any of you rationally explain what God is?

-Remember as a child, when you couldn't wait to be "all grown up" like your parents. That way you can do your own thing and you would KNOW what is going on (maybe)....
Then you hit 25 years of age and your grocery bagger calls you Sir, and then it hits you, "Oh #! I'm all grown up and I have NO IDEA WHAT THE EFF I'M DOING!".

Yeah, I think that's where we are on this subject.
You all can argue about this, but in all actuality, NOBODY KNOWS THE TRUTH.

Hell or Heaven or just plain LIMBO. We won't know 'till we perish.
AND ALL SHALL PERISH.

ps
ALL SHALL PERISH IS A BADASS BAND
All shall perish - - The last relapse

reply to post by resoe26


I feel that your experience is your own. If you encounter a divine revelation, it’s unrealistic to expect others not to be cynical about it… they should be skeptical.

Seeking out these experiences for ones self, has always been my motto. Maybe there is a supreme being we cannot know through the scientific method. Maybe... Go find out for yourself if it’s true or not.

Don’t be afraid to be considered “delusional” for what you choose to search for. It’s your life.

reply to post by pheonix358


More Loserferian's trying to drag everyone down to eternal suffering.

My heaven is gonna be a party with all my loved ones, enjoy wherever you end up x

reply to post by Beavers


Seriously, Aussies will need a separate Heaven, perhaps the Kiwis can join us! Just need a bar with beer, wine and soft drinks for the kids. Heaven is a place without our dangerous Fauna. Imagine not having to worry about drop bears or redbacks under the toilet seat.!.

P

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

There are no passages with God telling people to rape or murder. You have not presented any such verses; you simply claim that verses say something they do not say. Indefensible position you have there.

You're only lying to yourself. There are numerous examples of God ordering the murder, rape and pillage of cities both foreign and their own!

No, you presented verses about one nation conquering another, under the command of God. You choose to ignore all of the verses showing that He is, in fact, good, loving, and forgiving.

I know of none, at least none in the Old Testament, before God/Yahweh went through his anger management course.

You posted to insult Christianity, God, and as a result, Christians. You specifically posted to me, when I posted to the OP, and attacked everything I stated. If you didn't want a debate, you should not have addressed my post. I am not "talking you down" by responding to your negative attacks regarding my posts.

When you post in a public forum, stating your perspective to true and correct, you should expect to be tested challenged and justified.

You have a mistaken impression that Christians don't study anything, question anything, or know anything but some "brainwashing". I posted in this thread to address the issues that the OP brought up, not to debate with people that simply want to tear down any Christian opinions. You are free to walk away, or stay. I will post as I please. If you don't like the content, don't read my posts. If you want to debate, maybe you could start some way other than accusing me of doing "back flips".

You are doing all kinds of gymnastics to get around the topic, including insulting those who disagree with your God as, how did you say it?

An honest look at the world shows that, without God, people become utterly depraved, and things turn bad faster than you can blink. Plus, it isn't about what I "want", but about what IS.

I'm sorry to say, but the God of the Old Testament is not a good, merciful or loving God.