Thoughts from a former Christian

Originally posted by fourthmeal
Yep. For me it was every summer, from the young age of I believe 10 or 11 or so, may have been earlier. Falls Creek I think they called it. I like to think of it now as False Creek. It was a week long, just pure bible class, a little planned fun, and three tabernacle 1+hour long sessions each and every day. Pretty "washy" if you ask me. And then there was the big one, for teens, can't remember the name (lol, maybe blocked it out of my mind?) and it was 2 weeks long, and was actually worse. You PICKED the classes you had to attend, and again 3 sessions each and every day of tabernacle services.

Come to Jesus sessions each and every service, and AGAIN at night after the last service, at your cabin, for hours.

Imagine summer camp but bible-thumping the whole way through.

Sounds exhausting in a way.
I remember at my church camp, I was more worried about picking up some girls than anything.
Hate to say that, but it is true.

Look i caution anybody who holds a belief in a spirtual being in which they should die for or kill for.. Christianity and at least 3 other major religions are exclusive they have hierarchys and moral standards they require money from there belivers and some complete devotion to the point of dieing. The reality is since the begining man has looked up to try to explain the mishaps and unfortune's in there live's. Through irony or cosmic balance this same drive to explain misfortune and to sooth death anxiety has infact lead to more misfortune and more death. To me God has become a slaughtering name, a personification of the dividing line. The metaphorical fire on the bridge. We are interconnected we are individual expressions of a prototype experince. Peace and progress is the only solution to mans problems. Not hard labeling and black and white thinking. Christianity make's huge judgements on people though christians claim it's not them but there book. They defer responsibilty of the rational mind to a supposed personified judge. Yet claim to not be judgemental themselves this my friends is nothing short of insanity. I sincerely hope you find the truth, but leaving such a boxed in system is hard and scary. Listen im not saying stop beliving in christianity im just say if your belief is one that you would die or kill for you might want to question it's motives. But awh you cant do that because then you are not being faithful. What God would give you a rational mind yet tell you to suspend it's thinking to believe. This contradicts logics very prinicple.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by poundpuppy

 

Nice post but is this the way foir the average Churchian? Most need churchians seem to need pre-digested pap. Not disrespect to them but those who believe that the bible is the word of GOd miss a lot. I cringe when people quote revelation as that and leviticus are probably the most missunderstood books in the Bible. Revelation relates to the time of constantine and NOT to the modern era.

Tiger5

Christ returned and judged the nations during the time of Constantine? That's remarkable, also what temple was standing in Jerusalem during Constantine's reign?

Have you ever read a bible? If you read closely you will see that revelation actually refers to the time of Constantine. Do not blame me for that. Even the original Greek versions of the bible give the number of the beast as 616 in Greek numerology, which actually matches that of Constantine the Dragon with the 7 heads relate to rome with its 7 hills.

Pleae read your Revelation carefully and spend more time researching it than simply swallowing what is given but idiotic and uneducated priests.

No Christ did not return to earth in the time of constantine, if he had revelation would have mentioned it. Also the Churchians would have killed him!

reply to post by chasingbrahman

If Jesus and God are for real, then they must think it's hilarious to demand faith without providing a modicum of proof.

He does provide proof. It's called miracles. I've seen people healed through miracles and some of my church members have seen the dead raised. I'm not talking people who were clinically dead, i'm talking people who were dead 3 days brought back to life completely healed, one such case was in Africa.

Originally posted by resoe26
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

This is one of the many ways that religion has distorted God's intent. A tabernacle was a place for people to meet to discuss God. A place to worship for the individual. But the "Church" was two or more, taking the Word of God to the masses. Not a place for the curious to come to.
I have been to many a church, in my years. And it pains me to say, that you just don't see the Holy Spirit come alive in the preachers, any more. This is one of a plethora of reasons that I no longer leave my home to worship and praise my Savior. BUT, I wish I could find a place to go, that didn't contain all of the things that ruined it for me. I do miss communing with a genuine congregation.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Hypocrites abound! Both in and out of the church. But for some reason, the really nasty ones, can "see" the Light of Life that resides in me, and I can sense their cowardace, when they do. This is one of the many things that strengthens my Faith in my God.

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

I don't believe we are capable of being "right" with God. Until, we have accepted Salvation. And even then, it must be an ongoing battle against the dark forces that are vigilantly plotting against us.
My biggest sins, are my constant battles within. My contempt for others, and the lusts of the flesh. These I fight daily! But, I have found that strength is there for the asking. And a random act of kindness undoes much hardness in the heart...

I hope this helps you to understand my perspective...

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

This is one of the many ways that religion has distorted God's intent. A tabernacle was a place for people to meet to discuss God. A place to worship for the individual. But the "Church" was two or more, taking the Word of God to the masses. Not a place for the curious to come to.
I have been to many a church, in my years. And it pains me to say, that you just don't see the Holy Spirit come alive in the preachers, any more. This is one of a plethora of reasons that I no longer leave my home to worship and praise my Savior. BUT, I wish I could find a place to go, that didn't contain all of the things that ruined it for me. I do miss communing with a genuine congregation.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Hypocrites abound! Both in and out of the church. But for some reason, the really nasty ones, can "see" the Light of Life that resides in me, and I can sense their cowardace, when they do. This is one of the many things that strengthens my Faith in my God.

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

I don't believe we are capable of being "right" with God. Until, we have accepted Salvation. And even then, it must be an ongoing battle against the dark forces that are vigilantly plotting against us.
My biggest sins, are my constant battles within. My contempt for others, and the lusts of the flesh. These I fight daily! But, I have found that strength is there for the asking. And a random act of kindness undoes much hardness in the heart...

I hope this helps you to understand my perspective...

edit on 12/27/2012 by GoOfYFoOt because: sp...

I can dig your answer on that!
But how do you accept Salvation?
I try to do my best, but I, like yourself, have those battles within. Especially the lust of the flesh (I blame Asmodeus).
And you're right, a random act of kindness does do wonders within yourself.
I'm wondering if learning about occult matters is a bad thing. Not performing them, but learning of them... I enjoy surfacing the mystery and researching...

But my major concerns in researching, always lead me to the occult and religion. ALWAYS.
Wish I could discover the secrets, but they are hidden quite well.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by chasingbrahman

 

If Jesus and God are for real, then they must think it's hilarious to demand faith without providing a modicum of proof.

He does provide proof. It's called miracles. I've seen people healed through miracles and some of my church members have seen the dead raised. I'm not talking people who were clinically dead, i'm talking people who were dead 3 days brought back to life completely healed, one such case was in Africa.

It's a shame nobody thought to document something as important as irrefutable proof of God. Perhaps now, with world-wide availability of the smartphone, someone will capture proof the next time it's available.

I don't even see how these experiences would prove the existence of a God. At best, they prove a lack of diagnosic prowess. I found this article about conditions which mimic death to be quite educational. Who knew?

reply to post by Murgatroid


I've never found a church I could tolerate accept for Calvary. Sermon, worship thru Christian rock, guest speaker, call to Jesus, Worship thru christian rock to the end of service. For me it works. Still belong to know affiliation and have loved Jesus Christ since I was eight years old. I've always been happy healthy and never hungry. Even thru some horrible times.



OP come back Bro !

reply to post by resoe26

But how do you accept Salvation?

This is the most important question one can ever ask. I can only tell you how I achieved it. But I implore you, to continue to seek your own answer! You will know when you have succeeded...

The Bible says to, "humble yourself". And seek Him [the Lord] out. And you WILL find Him.
I recall getting "saved" on several occasions as a child in my Mom's church. I even went forward, a few times in those church camps, referenced above. Every time that I would feel ashamed, I would let those who appeared sincerely concerned with my soul, to assist me in walking their path. They would pray with me. And ask me how I felt afterwards. Of course my answer, was what they expected of me. But on the inside, I felt no different. Where was the epiphany, described of Jesus, when John baptized Him? There were no angels, or opening of my eyes, as I expected, each time. Maybe I did it wrong? Maybe I was misled? Maybe none of it was real? I thought, maybe I should just give up. But God would have none of that...

My Salvation came with a simple request. I was in my 30's. I had been going through a lot of personal trials and tribulations. Many of which, had manifested into physical ailments. My body was a wreck. I hadn't eaten in several days, for my inability to keep anything down. The doctors prescribed this and that, as they hurried off to their next payment, I mean patient. Nothing was working. I was literally on death's door. There was no doubt in my mind. It was coming. I began to fear for my soul! Was I prepared to meet my Maker? Had I successfully acquired an entry in the Book of Life?

The following Sunday, I decided to brave the nausea, and forced myself to go to church. I must have looked like death warmed over, based on the responses of those who saw me, there. When the altar call came, I pulled myself up and headed down the aisle. Brother Moffitt, our preacher interrupted his beckoning of the unsaved, and came to my side. I briefly explained my condition and asked to be prayed for. He called on the Elders, and requested a bottle of oil. I could feel every eye that was supposed to be closed, bearing down on me. Pastor annointed me, and all of the Elders layed hands on me, each simultaneously, offering their sincerest prayer in their most powerful voice...
I can't describe fully, the Force, that began surging through my body. I know it was strong enough to diplace every tear that resided in my ducts. I felt, a light that wasn't visible, but seemed to come from within, and filled the entire room. I would not have been surprised to hear everyone say that I was glowing! I felt a strength, that I had NEVER felt, before. It was accompanied, by the most profound calm, that I had ever sensed before, either!
I had finally experienced the Ghost!
This feeling was compounded by my sudden and unexplainable appetite. I couldn't eat much when I returned home, but it was the tastiest can of cold corn, in the world! And with the nourishment, so came my health and physical strength, back.
A few days later, I was sitting on a bench in the yard. Reflecting on the strangeness of recent days. I found myself in prayer, asking God, if what I just came through was real? Was it Him, responding to my humility? Was it REAL? Would He please show me a sign, to confirm that it was His hand, that cradled me, in my time of need?
At that very instant, A small bird flew down, from wherever it was perched and landed right beside me! Literally, inches from my hand. It turned and cocked it's head to look me right in the eye! And I, instantly felt that same feeling that overwhelmed me at the altar, those few days ago!

I'm wondering if learning about occult matters is a bad thing. Not performing them, but learning of them... I enjoy surfacing the mystery and researching...
But my major concerns in researching, always lead me to the occult and religion. ALWAYS.
Wish I could discover the secrets, but they are hidden quite well.

I have a few links for you, outlining one of the experiments, that I and a group of friends, attempted to conduct...I think you will enjoy my story...I'll find them and get them to you...

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
I don't believe you need a church or a denomination to have a relationship with God.

No, you don't "need" a specific building or doctrine. But NEVER underestimate the Power of the Biblical definition of a "church" which is "two or more gathering in My name". Also, there is something to the Power of the spoken word, over the reading of ones that are written...
I believe the Bible references this, as well...?

You're right.
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

Not wise to judge. I'm a "Bible Thumper" and have tattoos.

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt
reply to post by resoe26

 

But how do you accept Salvation?

This is the most important question one can ever ask. I can only tell you how I achieved it. But I implore you, to continue to seek your own answer! You will know when you have succeeded...

The Bible says to, "humble yourself". And seek Him [the Lord] out. And you WILL find Him.
I recall getting "saved" on several occasions as a child in my Mom's church. I even went forward, a few times in those church camps, referenced above. Every time that I would feel ashamed, I would let those who appeared sincerely concerned with my soul, to assist me in walking their path. They would pray with me. And ask me how I felt afterwards. Of course my answer, was what they expected of me. But on the inside, I felt no different. Where was the epiphany, described of Jesus, when John baptized Him? There were no angels, or opening of my eyes, as I expected, each time. Maybe I did it wrong? Maybe I was misled? Maybe none of it was real? I thought, maybe I should just give up. But God would have none of that...

My Salvation came with a simple request. I was in my 30's. I had been going through a lot of personal trials and tribulations. Many of which, had manifested into physical ailments. My body was a wreck. I hadn't eaten in several days, for my inability to keep anything down. The doctors prescribed this and that, as they hurried off to their next payment, I mean patient. Nothing was working. I was literally on death's door. There was no doubt in my mind. It was coming. I began to fear for my soul! Was I prepared to meet my Maker? Had I successfully acquired an entry in the Book of Life?

The following Sunday, I decided to brave the nausea, and forced myself to go to church. I must have looked like death warmed over, based on the responses of those who saw me, there. When the altar call came, I pulled myself up and headed down the aisle. Brother Moffitt, our preacher interrupted his beckoning of the unsaved, and came to my side. I briefly explained my condition and asked to be prayed for. He called on the Elders, and requested a bottle of oil. I could feel every eye that was supposed to be closed, bearing down on me. Pastor annointed me, and all of the Elders layed hands on me, each simultaneously, offering their sincerest prayer in their most powerful voice...
I can't describe fully, the Force, that began surging through my body. I know it was strong enough to diplace every tear that resided in my ducts. I felt, a light that wasn't visible, but seemed to come from within, and filled the entire room. I would not have been surprised to hear everyone say that I was glowing! I felt a strength, that I had NEVER felt, before. It was accompanied, by the most profound calm, that I had ever sensed before, either!
I had finally experienced the Ghost!
This feeling was compounded by my sudden and unexplainable appetite. I couldn't eat much when I returned home, but it was the tastiest can of cold corn, in the world! And with the nourishment, so came my health and physical strength, back.
A few days later, I was sitting on a bench in the yard. Reflecting on the strangeness of recent days. I found myself in prayer, asking God, if what I just came through was real? Was it Him, responding to my humility? Was it REAL? Would He please show me a sign, to confirm that it was His hand, that cradled me, in my time of need?
At that very instant, A small bird flew down, from wherever it was perched and landed right beside me! Literally, inches from my hand. It turned and cocked it's head to look me right in the eye! And I, instantly felt that same feeling that overwhelmed me at the altar, those few days ago!

I'm wondering if learning about occult matters is a bad thing. Not performing them, but learning of them... I enjoy surfacing the mystery and researching...
But my major concerns in researching, always lead me to the occult and religion. ALWAYS.
Wish I could discover the secrets, but they are hidden quite well.

I have a few links for you, outlining one of the experiments, that I and a group of friends, attempted to conduct...I think you will enjoy my story...I'll find them and get them to you...

Thanks for your response! Beautifully written and deep in meaning. I can tell that came from the heart. Thank you.
I tend to find myself talking to Him, without a response... (well I don't expect to hear a voice in my head)... But I wish to know what you do, that you are in His hands. I'm not so sure I am... Or maybe I am and he is just waiting for my wakeup.

Thanks though once more!!!

Originally posted by Tiger5

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by poundpuppy

 

Nice post but is this the way foir the average Churchian? Most need churchians seem to need pre-digested pap. Not disrespect to them but those who believe that the bible is the word of GOd miss a lot. I cringe when people quote revelation as that and leviticus are probably the most missunderstood books in the Bible. Revelation relates to the time of constantine and NOT to the modern era.

Tiger5

Christ returned and judged the nations during the time of Constantine? That's remarkable, also what temple was standing in Jerusalem during Constantine's reign?

Have you ever read a bible? If you read closely you will see that revelation actually refers to the time of Constantine. Do not blame me for that. Even the original Greek versions of the bible give the number of the beast as 616 in Greek numerology, which actually matches that of Constantine the Dragon with the 7 heads relate to rome with its 7 hills.

Pleae read your Revelation carefully and spend more time researching it than simply swallowing what is given but idiotic and uneducated priests.

No Christ did not return to earth in the time of constantine, if he had revelation would have mentioned it. Also the Churchians would have killed him!

edit on 27-12-2012 by Tiger5 because: typos

I've been studying Eschaetology for a very long time. And many things don't align with your theory. There was no temple in the holy land during his reign.

And btw, Mecca also has 7 hills.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
I don't believe you need a church or a denomination to have a relationship with God.

No, you don't "need" a specific building or doctrine. But NEVER underestimate the Power of the Biblical definition of a "church" which is "two or more gathering in My name". Also, there is something to the Power of the spoken word, over the reading of ones that are written...
I believe the Bible references this, as well...?

You're right.
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

Not wise to judge. I'm a "Bible Thumper" and have tattoos.

Let me rephrase then, I was judged that day because of my tattoos. Clearly.
I don't believe all Bible thumpers are this way. I know they aren't. I was simply writing about that one specific instance in my life. My apologies if I had offended you.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
I don't believe you need a church or a denomination to have a relationship with God.

No, you don't "need" a specific building or doctrine. But NEVER underestimate the Power of the Biblical definition of a "church" which is "two or more gathering in My name". Also, there is something to the Power of the spoken word, over the reading of ones that are written...
I believe the Bible references this, as well...?

You're right.
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

Not wise to judge. I'm a "Bible Thumper" and have tattoos.

Yes. Whether it's ink in your skin, or dogma in your heart, we all have reminders of a time gone by. The past does not define us!
Or better said, "Judge NOT, lest ye be judged!" ~the Christ~

reply to post by resoe26

Let me rephrase then, I was judged that day because of my tattoos. Clearly.

I once went to a church called Cornerstone. With my girlfriend. At the end of the service, the pastuer had me to his chambers. He said he didn't want to see me go to hell because I wasn't yet married to the girl I was with. I told him I was only there at her request. And asked him if he immediatrly judged everyone who came thru his church doors this way ? Before he could answer I said, " You know what ? Never mind. It's very obvious that you do And that's why you have a very small congregation. You as a pastuer should have far more faith in the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. I stood up and walked and niether of us ever returned. Even tho he had plenty of time to retort. He just sat there. I know he didn't even suspect that he was talking to someone who was already saved.

I didn't want to see him go to hell either. The point is it had no effect on my love for my Heavenly Father.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by resoe26

 

Let me rephrase then, I was judged that day because of my tattoos. Clearly.

I once went to a church called Cornerstone. With my girlfriend. At the end of the service, the pastuer had me to his chambers. He said he didn't want to see me go to hell because I wasn't yet married to the girl I was with. I told him I was only there at her request. And asked him if he immediatrly judged everyone who came thru his church doors this way ? Before he could answer I said, " You know what ? Never mind. It's very obvious that you do And that's why you have a very small congregation. You as a pastuer should have far more faith in the power of the blood of Jesus Christ. I stood up and walked and niether of us ever returned. Even tho he had plenty of time to retort. He just sat there. I know he didn't even suspect that he was talking to someone who was already saved.

I didn't want to see him go to hell either.

The point is it had no effect on my love for my Heavenly Father.

That's awesome.
I bet that humbled him quite well!

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
I don't believe you need a church or a denomination to have a relationship with God.

No, you don't "need" a specific building or doctrine. But NEVER underestimate the Power of the Biblical definition of a "church" which is "two or more gathering in My name". Also, there is something to the Power of the spoken word, over the reading of ones that are written...
I believe the Bible references this, as well...?

You're right.
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

Not wise to judge. I'm a "Bible Thumper" and have tattoos.

Let me rephrase then, I was judged that day because of my tattoos. Clearly.
I don't believe all Bible thumpers are this way. I know they aren't. I was simply writing about that one specific instance in my life. My apologies if I had offended you.

Your story is a perfect example of what can happen to the mind of the religiously soaked. In other words, people who rely on institutionalized dogma rather than a genuine study of the word of God. This pastor was no better than the religious pharisees that Jesus condemned during His walk.

I don't think it's for us to determine whether someone goes to hell or not. That's something between the individual and God. The Bible never tells us to go around saying who will and who won't go to hell...this is the fallenness of man though..."ye shall be as gods" we still believe it.

Originally posted by JackMack
The Book of Revelations must be read within its own History. It was included as political compromise to attract millions upon millions in Rome that followed the sibylline books also known as Sibylline oracles.

The Sibylline books evolved over hundreds of years early in Roman History, beginning approximately 400 BCE through the end of the Western Roman Empire. These were the most popular books in Rome for hundreds of years and followed by majority of upper and learned classes long before Jesus was born. The book of revelations is based upon the Sibylline oracles, which preceded Revelations by several hundred years. A comparison of the two books will reveal many similarities.

When Constantine wanted to consolidate what we call the Bible circa 350 AD, the inclusion of revelations was fought by many fundamental factions that saw no value in the book, it was not part of accepted teachings and frankly known to be derived and compete with Sybil writings. Political compromise won over pragmatism, and revelations made its way into the Bible over the next hundred years as various factions fought for and against its inclusion.

Many early theologians refused comment on the book, knowing its inclusion was political compromise. The fact it is included in the Bible is a reflection of man's folly, not God's

I wish I knew that before I allowed it to drive me insane.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by OrionsWitness

 

Love conquors all. precisely the message.

But it makes no compromise and by it's very nature it's an all or nothing proposition which isn't unwilling to contend with the darkest depths of the human heart, which is why I say that there's a deep and very profound joke at the heart of it all capable of driving a person into sanity, and spiritual growth and well being, maybe even a love that knows no bounds in either time and space ie: that transcends mere circumstance and therefore all the trials and tribulations of this world, which is a tad "fallen". But when we can smile in spite of it all, and join the circle of His joy, completing both our joy AND his, then we know, we "grok", and once the mind and heart changes shape it can never go back to it's original configuration, so it is like food, something you integrate, taken in and consumed,and we all have spiritual mouths, eyes and ears, even a hand and a foot, and when we exchange the inauthentic, with the authentic, and step into Christ, with him in us, then even though we may remain a work in progress, at first, our destiny is in God already always, whereby that experience of "koinonia" of "a shared intimate participation", becomes our own experience as well, and that's the very nature of self knowledge and self discovery.

Then after a while pondering and being with this you have an epiphany and you might exclaim "OMG, he IS still alive!" and burst out laughing at the realization that he is also, at the most fundamental level, the very very best part of who we REALLY are and were intended to be in eternity (as children of a loving God), at which point even death then gives way and "loses it's sting" as they say, in the cosmic joke of a lifetime. It's safe though, to get this joke, it won't kill us, but it might very well wrestle with our demons and bring us to tears, first of sorrow, then of joy and utter hilarity, at the expense of all our prior ignorance. In this way it's the hand that wipes away the tears from our eyes at the end of time and history (beginning of eternity).

The kingdom of heaven is STILL close at hand. That's the beauty of it. It didn't go away, and it's even more meaningful and significant and much NEEDED today, that it ever was, imho..

So it's the joke that just keeps on getting funnier once you begin to get it, and which can leave you in a heap of utter sorrow and utter joy and laughter and celebration, for he who DARES to get the joke even as needed at his own expense, like in a duh facepalm moment of absolute epiphany.

When we take it to it's logical and rational if not ultra-rational conclusion, we reintegrate, and see things in a whole new light and behold a new domain of possibility for the soul not unlike a new pasture from which we are free to freely come and go as we please, through the gate or the doorway, of Christ.

It's both incomprehensible and entirely comprehensible both at the same time, and funny, my God Jesus must have been the finniest man alive by helping people to laugh at their own ignorance and absurdity ie: "You strain at (out) a gnat but swallow a camel WHOLE!"


"Religion is a defense against having an authentic spiritual experience."
~ Carl Jung


Therefore the sin of "Churchianity" is that of "Biblioatry" - of using the Bible as a defense against actually having or entering into an authentic experience of the love of God in Jesus Christ - now that's FUNNY! Especially as a real Christian, and even MORESO as a curious non-believer, because in that humor you know him, and precisely what he would have thought of much of modern largely American Christendom, and he would have blasted them with the most cutting humor, and even stern warning?, imaginable, and turned everything upside down and on its head, I'm sure of it.

And they would have thrown him out on his ass..

Me I'm just glad that he's still with us, and in tact, even after everything his damn church has put him through over the centuries - how tragic!

Nothing however can overcome his joyful love, especially when his joy is made complete with us in our shared joy with him, because it was all for US, all the way through and through, with everything shared and nothing withheld from those who love him.

"As the father sent me even so send I you."

I love Jesus Christ!

Makes me both cry and burst out laughing both at the same time.

Or maybe it's just me, but I don't think so, no people are brighter than that, they can't not not get it. I have faith in people too, like Jesus did, he didn't hold back, but strangely, it's taken us over 2000 years to even begin to figure out just what the heck he was really talking about!

I'm bumping this because it's one of the best and more important things that I've ever posted at ATS and I think it describes the true nature of the love at the heart of Christianity very well.

I kind of went through what the OP did but with one exception I now dont believe in the bible or any kind of religion.
We are taught to wait on god and wait for armegedon and wait,wait wait on the second coming of Jesus. Also fear god fear of not being worthy, hatred of the world ,hatred of nonbelievers because they are going to die or going to hell.Looking back yea non believers are stupid and deserve what they get. Every religion based on the bible do this which calls into question what the bible really does for people. Even if you read it yourself there is nothing up building about it and you are nothing but a lowly sinner. If you own father kept saying you were no good you and others wouldn't think much of him.
Religion and believing in an outward source that judges you is one step away from an angry god in a volcano that you have to sacrifice too and appease. Religion doesn't cause harmony and it never will but if you are in harmony with yourself you are in harmony with others