Thoughts from a former Christian

Originally posted by celticdog
I kind of went through what the OP did but with one exception I now dont believe in the bible or any kind of religion.
We are taught to wait on god and wait for armegedon and wait,wait wait on the second coming of Jesus. Also fear god fear of not being worthy, hatred of the world ,hatred of nonbelievers because they are going to die or going to hell.Looking back yea non believers are stupid and deserve what they get. Every religion based on the bible do this which calls into question what the bible really does for people. Even if you read it yourself there is nothing up building about it and you are nothing but a lowly sinner. If you own father kept saying you were no good you and others wouldn't think much of him.
Religion and believing in an outward source that judges you is one step away from an angry god in a volcano that you have to sacrifice too and appease. Religion doesn't cause harmony and it never will but if you are in harmony with yourself you are in harmony with others

You obviously haven't read the entirety of the Bible because while we are fallen, we are created in God's image. Our bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus. Our true citizenship is not of this world but of heaven. We are the sons of God, children of His promise for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

And all of this NOT because we do anything in particular, rituals, worship or any of that. It's simply a free gift from God that we can accept or reject. It's as simple as that. Those who preach "do this or you'll go to hell...do that or you won't go to heaven" are simply man made religiosity.

Hell or the thought of eternal damnation makes me roll my eyes.


A source of all that IS of the Universe and beyond, that is a source of pure unconditional love, and that is compassionate and freely providing to all that allow it to be their provider.... sends people to hell.


Methinks that was sketched in the books somewhere a little later on by, oh, let's say humans in power at the time. When I think of Creator, and the loving energy my body feels (right freaking now), hell is purely a 3D duality concept. I DO think people create their own hell if they want one, either here on Earth or in some other plane. Such is the free-will choice of eternal life.

For me, I will embrace the pure love that I feel, radiate it outward as much as I can, and leave this duality damnation stuff in the dust.

Originally posted by fourthmeal
Hell or the thought of eternal damnation makes me roll my eyes.


A source of all that IS of the Universe and beyond, that is a source of pure unconditional love, and that is compassionate and freely providing to all that allow it to be their provider.... sends people to hell.


Methinks that was sketched in the books somewhere a little later on by, oh, let's say humans in power at the time. When I think of Creator, and the loving energy my body feels (right freaking now), hell is purely a 3D duality concept. I DO think people create their own hell if they want one, either here on Earth or in some other plane. Such is the free-will choice of eternal life.

For me, I will embrace the pure love that I feel, radiate it outward as much as I can, and leave this duality damnation stuff in the dust.

This is a common thought process of many. But you miss one important factor. Justice. Love without justice is no love at all. Your premise of hell is wrong. God doesn't go "oh no...you didn't follow my orders, thus I will throw you in hell."....no no no. That's not how it works.

Remember that hell was not made for man, but for the fallen cherub and his angels. In other words, Satan and those who followed him. Humans who will end up in the lake of fire are those who out right reject God. It's the consequence of free will. You have a choice. Reject God and His offer of eternal life through Christ Jesus, and you will send yourself to hell. Simple as that. But remember it's between the individual and God. I have no right saying who will and who won't end up in hell. That would be playing God and I know I am not God.

And BTW, accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior doesn't mean you have to join a church, associate with a denomination, etc etc etc. It's simply a spiritual admission that Jesus came and died for your sins, and rose again.

I don't know about you, but sounds like a good deal to me. Believe and be given immortal, incorruptible bodies. Sounds pretty sweet.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


yes and so does Leeds have seven hills. Your point eluded me. you also seem to have ignored the wholenature of the misunderstanding promulgated by the Churchians. The entire current Xtian cult seems to have made people unquestionning.

I agree that religion is corrupt as a whole. However, I cannot say that ALL churches are bad. I have never been a strict Christian. In fact, I turned my back on church altogether for about 25 years because of a corrupt place. However, after a very trying time in my life, and unexplainable cause and effects, I wanted to delve a little deeper into it.
Some of the churches I found were such big crocks, that I literally got up and walked out. However, I found one that I really enjoy going to each Sunday. They aren't judgemental, they do not press their thoughts/opinions on people, they respect everyone, and are personable. They dont press their agenda on anyone, on Sundays, our Pastor takes a passage out of the bible and puts it into modern day examples.

Anyway, the point of my post is just to day that not ALL places are bad. Sadly however, most of them are. I think spirituality is different for everyone. Some people may need the mass religion, others dont need to be part of a group. I have found a happy medium that works for me. To each their own.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I wish I knew that before I allowed it to drive me insane.

You're not insane NAM ! You're just a total zealot and massive hypocrite like me.

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

You obviously haven't read the entirety of the Bible because while we are fallen, we are created in God's image. Our bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus. Our true citizenship is not of this world but of heaven. We are the sons of God, children of His promise for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

And all of this NOT because we do anything in particular, rituals, worship or any of that. It's simply a free gift from God that we can accept or reject. It's as simple as that. Those who preach "do this or you'll go to hell...do that or you won't go to heaven" are simply man made religiosity.

Christianity tends to make some flaws better by making other flaws worse. It lays down a philosophy that offers as many pitfalls as it does victories, eventually redirecting our worst aspects at very particular ideas that can be beneficial. It teaches us that we are not meant to command ourselves, so that we won't try. It teaches us that we are different, so we will hate our brothers. It teaches us that we are separate from divinity, so we never realize the power within us.

The movie "I Robot" has exemplified our habit of perfecting our control of life to eliminate the fear of risk by placing it in external forces. What do you think we're doing now? Taking all the risk out of life. That's the point of it, you know? Religion and all that. It's supposed to remove spiritual reliance on ourselves so that we will forever remain on the ground. Safer that way, right? Over protective leaders of the religious world don't trust mankind to earn its wings.

And eventually, the more politically minded utilize the control of religion to garner a little extra on the side. They deserve it. Of course they do. They can't possibly serve the people without a four story mansion, an indoor pool, and golden candle holders! And when they begin taking more and more, their political web gathering spider after spider, the little guys have to fight each other to get less and less.

That's when the capitalist system becomes really useful. Find every excuse you can to get the money out of consumer hands and into your pocket. But don't make them suspicious. Anyway, that's a topic for another time. Just pointing out how other aspects of society have strange similarities to religious tactics.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

You obviously haven't read the entirety of the Bible because while we are fallen, we are created in God's image. Our bodies are a temple for the Holy Spirit. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus. Our true citizenship is not of this world but of heaven. We are the sons of God, children of His promise for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

And all of this NOT because we do anything in particular, rituals, worship or any of that. It's simply a free gift from God that we can accept or reject. It's as simple as that. Those who preach "do this or you'll go to hell...do that or you won't go to heaven" are simply man made religiosity.

Christianity tends to make some flaws better by making other flaws worse. It lays down a philosophy that offers as many pitfalls as it does victories, eventually redirecting our worst aspects at very particular ideas that can be beneficial. It teaches us that we are not meant to command ourselves, so that we won't try. It teaches us that we are different, so we will hate our brothers. It teaches us that we are separate from divinity, so we never realize the power within us.

The movie "I Robot" has exemplified our habit of perfecting our control of life to eliminate the fear of risk by placing it in external forces. What do you think we're doing now? Taking all the risk out of life. That's the point of it, you know? Religion and all that. It's supposed to remove spiritual reliance on ourselves so that we will forever remain on the ground. Safer that way, right? Over protective leaders of the religious world don't trust mankind to earn its wings.

And eventually, the more politically minded utilize the control of religion to garner a little extra on the side. They deserve it. Of course they do. They can't possibly serve the people without a four story mansion, an indoor pool, and golden candle holders! And when they begin taking more and more, their political web gathering spider after spider, the little guys have to fight each other to get less and less.

That's when the capitalist system becomes really useful. Find every excuse you can to get the money out of consumer hands and into your pocket. But don't make them suspicious. Anyway, that's a topic for another time. Just pointing out how other aspects of society have strange similarities to religious tactics.

TPTB definitely use religions to their benefit. I get that. I see how the social construct of our world are predicated on the have and have nots and that something like Capitalism can be useful in terms of "getting your own". Of course the problem is stepping on others to get there. But yes, that is a different topic all together.

I don't think the Christian message in particular is one that says, "be safe and grounded and don't rely on yourself." I actually think it's the opposite. Once we are free from the bondage of the world system whether it be political, economic, or spiritual, we are free and we can be the hands and feet of the loving Creator. It all comes down to whether we do things to benefit ourselves, or benefit others. Think about the entire narrative of Jesus Christ and the death and resurrection. It was an all powerful, all knowing, all loving God being as humble as to become a fragile human and even getting killed. And for what? To release the rest of humanity from spiritual bondage.

TPTB, the Illuminists, the NWO types allow the growth of false spirituality, even under the Christian banner because it keeps us blind. But I think many of us give TPTB too much credit. They themselves are under a deception that they are the key holders to free humanity. Think of the transhumanist movement. Or even the entire narrative of the esoteric types. It's all about man becoming god. The same lie from the garden of eden. And the answer is, YES we will become like God, immortal, eternal etc. But it's not going to be due to the works of our own hands. It all comes down to where one places his or her faith. Humanity, or the Creator of the universe, which we can't know everything about, but certainly enough to enstill trust in Him.

reply to post by ddaniel


ddaniel,

Continue to have faith in the things you know in your heart are true and right. Many of us have had similar experiences that you have had and we have moved on.

I personally battled similar doubts and questions you have raised. But I moved on and try to express my love and understanding of things and people with quiet compassion and reserve. Use the lesson of Love that Christ taught and exemplified and you'll continue on the correct course. Like all the true prophets Christ taught love and acceptance of the rightous and those that weren't. Just remember that some souls will not or cannot be salvadged or saved, just love them anyway.


Happy New Year!


Merry Christmas!!

I appreciate everyone's participation in my thread. I have been traveling, but will try to address some points tonight.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by ddaniel

 

I didn't notice what you felt was the conspiracy in this.

The conspiracy as I see it is this: a movement of love (the message if Jesus) got hijacked by corrupt institutions (see: the posts by JackMack early in the thread, the history of the Church, the crusades, etc), transforming an empowering, beautiful message (the father and I are One, 1 corinthians 13, etc) into one of self-worthlessness (born into sin, the need for an external savior), divisiveness (our God is the only true God) and fear (turn or burn).

This is NOT the message of Christ, and the modern Church (of most all mainstream faiths) has become an abomination.

Christians have turned the Bible into God, and until religion is transformed or destroyed, we are INCAPABLE of moving forward as a species, but VERY CAPABLE of destroying everything we have built in the name of a God very few seem to actually know anything about.

Flame away

Ever watch "I, Pet Goat II"?

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel.

At the end part:
Christ Consciousness flows through and changes everything, religion crumbles, and what stands is a totally new thing.

And if you haven't watched it yet, forget about what I just said and just watch it, and draw your own conclusions. Every single frame of this movie has meaning and room for interpretation, like a dance. And it is beautiful to the point of drawing tears to my eyes. And I'm a dude.

reply to post by ddaniel


No flaming here. I agree with you completely. You put it very well - self-degradation, division, and intimidation. These are the tools used to corrupt the spirit. And the churches have done a marvelous job of it. The damage might be irreparable by now, for all we know.

The Bible is result of over Six thousand years history of mans thoughtfulness and deliberation consolidating into a single assembled work of literature. This is really the starting point, researching the forces that created the Bible, and understanding them. From their beginnings in Ancient Sumer and Egypt, Persia, Babylon and Akkadia, the Indus Valley and Africa right on through the middle ages and enlightenment until today. It is a violent and divine path.

The Old testament is result of Zoroastrian teachings, Babylonian Astro-theology, heavily weighted with Phoenician theology, influenced by Indus Valley and ancient mystery religions, African religions, and every culture the Hebrew nation touched influenced the evolving Old testament. We can trace this throughout History and read Cyrus the Great liberating the Jewish people from Babylon...Cyrus was King of Persia (Iran) , he freed Israel from captivity. During their captivity in Babylon is where the old testament becomes mono theistic, angels and Satan are woven into Hebrew teachings, and evolves into a what we are accustomed today. It was and still is a theology that changes and evolves with the time period.

Into this background came Jesus. And here is where theology turns upside down and contradictions are conveniently set aside and ignored, lest we anger the gods. Jesus is not new to anyone living at that time, he came in many forms for thousands of years ; Nimrod, Horus (Amen- Ra), etc...all died and resurrected to provide Humanity a path to heaven. The sacrifice of an individual for the rest of Humanity individual in theology occurs with regularity throughout History, but in this case the Empire of Rome decides to support this particular branch of belief around 330 A.D.
There were dozens of competing branches promoting their own brand of Christianity; reincarnation was very popular, the idea Jesus is Divine was not popularly accepted at the time, he was a man like Enoch, swept up to heaven. There were Gnostics that believed esoteric knowledge was the goal, others that felt Jesus was god in human form. They fought with each other, sometimes murdering those that did not agree with their brand of salvation, and they all fought with religions that were not Judeo- Christian. The fighting became so bad it threatened to divide the Empire.
As a result in 330 AD emperor Constantine brought together scribes and scholars and they compromised on prototype of the Bible and Empire of Rome granted this new religion state sponsorship. Over the next hundreds of years the organized Church went on campaign of oppression and murder to stamp out competitive texts, or source materials that conflicted or caused issue to the new State Religion.

What Jesus taught is valid, and tends to summarize many religious beliefs from Eastern, African, and other regions. It is humanity that corrupted his teachings, and that is our loss. It is also why we question our faith, because it makes no sense until we place source of what we believe within Historical context and understand human nature created conflicts we feel.

It is no accident we are asked to search for the Divine ourselves, ( Know Thyself) and find what Jesus meant when he said the Kingdom of God is within you.

Originally posted by fourthmeal
Ever watch "I, Pet Goat II"?

Yeah, that's pretty much how I feel.

At the end part:
Christ Consciousness flows through and changes everything, religion crumbles, and what stands is a totally new thing.

And if you haven't watched it yet, forget about what I just said and just watch it, and draw your own conclusions. Every single frame of this movie has meaning and room for interpretation, like a dance. And it is beautiful to the point of drawing tears to my eyes. And I'm a dude.

Just watched it. Very interesting video.

Also interesting is that on Heliofant's website, one of the two articles linked for commentary is an ATS thread: Link

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


Maybe you havent read your bible.In the old testament alone if the jews didnt obey they were killed. Moses came down from with the 10 commandments and isnt one of those thou shall not kill. Moses and others kills thousands because they were having a party with a golden calf. God and Moses didnt take long to break that commandment. Obey or be killed all throughout the old testament.A guy gets killed for spreading his sead on the ground.Women and children killed of the enemies oh you left someone alive killed for that. The new testament is not much better( you can make a case for the gospels but that is about it) because the book of revelation if you are not on the right side you die in armegeddon.Even after armegeddon satan is let loose again. It is all fear mongering but you are blinded by belief and it sounds good. I use to be like you and I am going to be saved not the guy next door. Then I woke up and realized the bible is just a book and not a very nice one and supposedly god wrote this through men. It wasn't from god at all and if it was he sure painted himself in a bad light and he is not the lovable guy in the sky.
There maybe a time when you will see this or you may never see it all. I bet you see the Quran as a bad book. Well apply what you think about the Quran and put the bible in its place. Why do muslims think it is a holy book?Maybe the bible is in the same catergory. You have been brainwashed to think of it as a holy book. What if you were born in the middle east? Your belief is handed down to you from parents and so on. There is some guy in the middle east that is thinking the same way you are about him.

reply to post by ddaniel


Yes you have come closer to Christ by leaving the church. The message they teach is wrong and damaging. Christ taught that we were on a journey towards righteousness. That we could overcome our sin through him. Christ did not teach us we were defeated, he told us we win.

The true meaning of the bible has been destroyed by the Christian church, in my opinion.

reply to post by JackMack


I find it absolutely astonishing that you were able to uncover, translate and piece together all of those ancient texts and information, much of which was written in a now defunct and forgotten language, and are able to draw such an absolute and incontrovertible factual happenstance, from it!

Amazing....

Originally posted by ddaniel
You're correct that this is not the teaching of Jesus, but is currently the teaching of the Church. We are 'born into sin', and helpless without a savior. Fundamentalists believe the world will not be 'cleansed of evil' until the end times and e second coming: that is by definition a defeatist attitude!

that is not a "defeatist" attitude as such, but rather a realistic one- as long as man exists there will always be evil deeds carried out, this is true regardless of what faith you hold or whether you believe in a pure animal, coincidental existence

Originally posted by celticdog
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

Maybe you havent read your bible.In the old testament alone if the jews didnt obey they were killed. Moses came down from with the 10 commandments and isnt one of those thou shall not kill. Moses and others kills thousands because they were having a party with a golden calf. God and Moses didnt take long to break that commandment. Obey or be killed all throughout the old testament.A guy gets killed for spreading his sead on the ground.Women and children killed of the enemies oh you left someone alive killed for that. The new testament is not much better( you can make a case for the gospels but that is about it) because the book of revelation if you are not on the right side you die in armegeddon.Even after armegeddon satan is let loose again. It is all fear mongering but you are blinded by belief and it sounds good. I use to be like you and I am going to be saved not the guy next door. Then I woke up and realized the bible is just a book and not a very nice one and supposedly god wrote this through men. It wasn't from god at all and if it was he sure painted himself in a bad light and he is not the lovable guy in the sky.
There maybe a time when you will see this or you may never see it all. I bet you see the Quran as a bad book. Well apply what you think about the Quran and put the bible in its place. Why do muslims think it is a holy book?Maybe the bible is in the same catergory. You have been brainwashed to think of it as a holy book. What if you were born in the middle east? Your belief is handed down to you from parents and so on. There is some guy in the middle east that is thinking the same way you are about him.

Actually, i grew up in an atheistic home. Didn't really start questioning things until i was in college. Then accepted the Lord Jesus Christ when I was 24. I am 29 now.

And your handling of the OT and the NT is pretty poor. But that's not your fault. A study of the Bible is a life long thing. I'm not going to get into all of the false representations you made in your little rant there, but I will say that your presupposition is wrong. If the 10 commandments were simply "rules to get into heaven" or something like that, then you would be correct. But that's NOT what they were. The entire narrative of the OT is the protection of the messianic line. The NT is all about the fulfillment of that. The book of Revelation is a book of things to come.

God is not a "guy in the sky" etc. I have not been brainwashed to think it's a holy book. The Bible is inerrant. And if you study the original languages, Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, as well as the cultural context, you will discover that the Bible is so amazingly coherent that there is no way 40 people over a span of 1500 years in 3 languages were able to keep its consistency. But all of this you will not know until you test it for yourself.

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

Not ONLY is it inerrant, the science of probability shows we are dealing with the miraculous...

A man made Bible has a ZERO probability of ever happening.

In other words it is scientifically impossible for the Bible to be a construction of man.