Thoughts from a former Christian

reply to post by OrionsWitness


Love conquors all. precisely the message.

But it makes no compromise and by it's very nature it's an all or nothing proposition which isn't unwilling to contend with the darkest depths of the human heart, which is why I say that there's a deep and very profound joke at the heart of it all capable of driving a person into sanity, and spiritual growth and well being, maybe even a love that knows no bounds in either time and space ie: that transcends mere circumstance and therefore all the trials and tribulations of this world, which is a tad "fallen". But when we can smile in spite of it all, and join the circle of His joy, completing both our joy AND his, then we know, we "grok", and once the mind and heart changes shape it can never go back to it's original configuration, so it is like food, something you integrate, taken in and consumed,and we all have spiritual mouths, eyes and ears, even a hand and a foot, and when we exchange the inauthentic, with the authentic, and step into Christ, with him in us, then even though we may remain a work in progress, at first, our destiny is in God already always, whereby that experience of "koinonia" of "a shared intimate participation", becomes our own experience as well, and that's the very nature of self knowledge and self discovery.

Then after a while pondering and being with this you have an epiphany and you might exclaim "OMG, he IS still alive!" and burst out laughing at the realization that he is also, at the most fundamental level, the very very best part of who we REALLY are and were intended to be in eternity (as children of a loving God), at which point even death then gives way and "loses it's sting" as they say, in the cosmic joke of a lifetime. It's safe though, to get this joke, it won't kill us, but it might very well wrestle with our demons and bring us to tears, first of sorrow, then of joy and utter hilarity, at the expense of all our prior ignorance. In this way it's the hand that wipes away the tears from our eyes at the end of time and history (beginning of eternity).

The kingdom of heaven is STILL close at hand. That's the beauty of it. It didn't go away, and it's even more meaningful and significant and much NEEDED today, that it ever was, imho..

So it's the joke that just keeps on getting funnier once you begin to get it, and which can leave you in a heap of utter sorrow and utter joy and laughter and celebration, for he who DARES to get the joke even as needed at his own expense, like in a duh facepalm moment of absolute epiphany.

When we take it to it's logical and rational if not ultra-rational conclusion, we reintegrate, and see things in a whole new light and behold a new domain of possibility for the soul not unlike a new pasture from which we are free to freely come and go as we please, through the gate or the doorway, of Christ.

It's both incomprehensible and entirely comprehensible both at the same time, and funny, my God Jesus must have been the finniest man alive by helping people to laugh at their own ignorance and absurdity ie: "You strain at (out) a gnat but swallow a camel WHOLE!"


"Religion is a defense against having an authentic spiritual experience."
~ Carl Jung


Therefore the sin of "Churchianity" is that of "Biblioatry" - of using the Bible as a defense against actually having or entering into an authentic experience of the love of God in Jesus Christ - now that's FUNNY! Especially as a real Christian, and even MORESO as a curious non-believer, because in that humor you know him, and precisely what he would have thought of much of modern largely American Christendom, and he would have blasted them with the most cutting humor, and even stern warning?, imaginable, and turned everything upside down and on its head, I'm sure of it.

And they would have thrown him out on his ass..



Me I'm just glad that he's still with us, and in tact, even after everything his damn church has put him through over the centuries - how tragic!

Nothing however can overcome his joyful love, especially when his joy is made complete with us in our shared joy with him, because it was all for US, all the way through and through, with everything shared and nothing withheld from those who love him.

"As the father sent me even so send I you."

I love Jesus Christ!

Makes me both cry and burst out laughing both at the same time.

Or maybe it's just me, but I don't think so, no people are brighter than that, they can't not not get it. I have faith in people too, like Jesus did, he didn't hold back, but strangely, it's taken us over 2000 years to even begin to figure out just what the heck he was really talking about!

reply to post by ddaniel

Nice post.

I also grew up in a fundamentalist household. I was a christian until about 24 years of age or so.

I couldn't honestly confront my parents about it. It actually breaks me heart to even think of doing that. You know, I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for this earth. I feel sorry for every living creature that has to go through this life and be exposed to its dangers and its sufferings. So when the thought of speaking my mind comes to me, I immediately reject it. In fact, a small part of me hopes they're right, even if that means I go to hell. Why? Because there's very likely nothing after death. Everything on this earth recycles. Everything passes away. So even if there's a divine judge casting people into hell and allowing a few others into heaven, at least it preserves the past and gives some purpose to it. At least it gives my parents and others who're suffering through thing in life some hope and something to hold onto. Maybe I feel this way because I feel despair sometimes. I don't want them to be exposed to what I think and feel sometimes. They're too old and unprepared for that. I am not lying when I say that it's a crippling sorrow I feel inside for them and all creatures.

Yes, I know that religion is stupid and has caused suffering in different ways. But keep in mind that for those who believe, they have a rock hard foundation from which to experience this life. There might be strife and war and disease and loss that confronts them, but their faith protect them.

I can't give purpose to this world. I can't preserve the past. I can't fight nature and win. All I can do is pitifully hope that some people will believe and find some refuge from this living hell.

If there's a God, I hope it forgives us. It doesn't have to give us an eternal life. It's ok if we die. What I ask is that you preserve our memory. Nobody has to look at the memory. Just preserve it. I don't believe there's a God, so these words are childish and stupid. But IF there is...

If I had the keys to the car, so to speak, I'd pause every process in this universe and, one by one, approach each sentient life-form and ask it whether it wants to come with me to a new place where there's no dying and conflict, stay here, or to die and be put into memory. I'd slowly plan the end of this reality, but I'd keep in mind those sentient beings who desire to stay here amidst the hell. I'd ponder what weight their opinion has against the overriding feeling I have that this universe of conflict should not exist. The idea is to be fair and not dictate more than is needed.

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun
I like to think of myself as moral, not objective, but in my heart

Like the OP said (and by OP I mean The Christos).

"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

These are THE most important words! If we, fallen souls, could live this, we would be on our way right now!

EDIT:~ I try my best.

reply to post by ElleLachyme

All we really have to do is to fall in love and receive the love and keep taking it in by believing and receiving. That's the whole of our work!

It's like the ultimate cosmic free lunch, of getting to have one's cake and get to eat it too. It's both too good to be true and it is true.

Love or do not love there is no try (said like Yoda).

So it's ALL GOOD NEWS, that's the gist of the gospel message right there.

It transcends should and shouldn't and the duality of good and bad (the law) where we need not try to be good in order not not to not be bad if you know what I mean, but good for it's own intrinsic reward, loving, of God and Jesus as self, because he's also our neighbor, our brother and our true friend.

reply to post by NewAgeMan
It's all degrees.

I have down here, I believe and am trying to receive.

I say Universal free lunch. I have the cake but no fork!

But that is the down here.

Not only our neighbor but me, you!

reply to post by ElleLachyme

Where are you, in Australia?


Your avatar looks kinda like the bride of Christ in mine, interesting..

P.S. You can use your hands (to eat the cake), it's ok.

reply to post by NewAgeMan
I'me down here silly.

reply to post by ElleLachyme

I think we've gone and killed the thread.


Well folks that's it that's all she wrote.


Open 24 Hours - never closed!

Free cake, come and get it, you can use your hands.

In the good name of Jesus Christ, amen.

reply to post by NewAgeMan
It will be reborn. Don't you worry!

Actually some of what you said hits home more than you can believe. It's (like) I said some of these things already tonight... No really.

No Happenstance!

Originally posted by ddaniel In the true spirit of Christ, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

And here is the root of confusion of pure Christianity compared to what man teaches.

Christ was not born in the dead of Winter but researchers figure more about mid to late September. This entire tradition of men is one huge lie with the tiniest piece of truth put to it to make it look palatable to the masses.

The Bible is meant to be studied subject by subject not read like a normal book.
In order to study this book you should also have several different versions IE:KJV, NIV,etc etc etc Biblegateway.com is a great online Bible reference.
You need a set of encyclopedias.
You need several University Grade Dictionaries.
You need a complete Greek and Hebrew Lexicon.
You need a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance.
Now that we have the internet it makes all of the above so much easier.
Also if you still believe there is a God, Christ Jesus and The Holy Spirit then ask of God that you want to find out what His Word truly says and NOT what man teaches and pray that The Word is opened to you in sincerity and humbling of yourself and begin your study putting out all of the trash man has programmed into your head.

I've been a Biblical Theological student since the age of 8 and I know my personal relationship with the Father,Christ Jesus and The Holy Spirit and IT IS NOT what man teaches at all.

Two key piece/passages of scripture to keep in mind. One out of the Old Testament with God speaking through the Prophet Isaiah and one out of the New Testament with God In The Flesh speaking to us directly. Mirror passages saying the same message.

God speaking through the Prophet: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Isaiah 8:20)

God in The Flesh speaking to us directly: Mathew ch 5 vs 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Last I checked Heaven and Earth have not passed away so God's Word and Law is still in place no matter what man tries to tell you.

Here is my belief to be able to post as I do with the surety I do and in the Faith I do:

I am a Child of God given Liberty through the Final and Ultimate Blood Sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of God to proclaim the true and pure Word of God and to proclaim His Word and His Word alone. God's Word plainly states: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." — Galatians 3:28 I would rather be judged by God's Law than the precepts of men.

I pray you find your way. Peace be unto you. Remember God's Word is Spiritual while man's thoughts, ways and traditions are carnal and the two are enmity against each other but the closer we come into the understanding of God's Word the less carnal we become and the more spiritual we become.

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." - Romans 8:6

The natural man(Carnally Minded) does not accept the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness to him. And he cannot understand them because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14)

Peace be unto you Daniel. God knew you before you were born. Do you think you got your name by random chance. I pray you find your path. Once again Peace Unto You.

reply to post by jonnywhite


Religion is crafted by man with out God while Spiritualism is God given from with in.

reply to post by ddaniel


Danial the same reasons I disavowed relgious beliefs were the same ones you refered to in your post! I wish our world would see things as they are and not how we are supposed to be indoctrined to believe! I really hope these things do not push you away from a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ! We need to follow that which we know to be right within our hearts! Just because you now deny the many heirarchies of catholocism does not make all the teachings false! maybe it's just a matter of where to look! I was a catholic up until me teens when i disavowed the church but my mistake was I disavowed all belief in God as well! This lead me down a
destructive path though I can't say this will happen to you! For some reason my lack of faith in God did not leave me without some kind of protection from harm! the honest truth is I should be dead or in prison right now but am not! The only way I can explain this would be if I was either very lucky or that the lord was looking out for me, and Danial I have never been lucky! Well I slowly came to believe in God once again because of these and other things I wont go into but I will never again believe in the Heirarchy that made me sway from my faith in the first place! I have seen the truth in most everything you say but in my experience there is more to life then just this world, there is also some truth to even the holy scriptures! I believe that there is a God! Now I can't prove this to you! Actually I can barely prove this to myself! Please don't take any of this the wrong way cause I'm not trying to convert you back! We all have to follow our own path and there is no rush for you to do any of these things I'm suggesting to you! I suggest you look into yourself to find a connection between you and the almighty! I also suggest you look into the Gnostic books also called the dead sea scrolls! I believe myself to be of the Gnostic faith now! I don't know if you know this but gnosticism, Plain and simple…means rebelling against and breaking free of the conformity set forth to us by religious dogma.
Though I have not attended any churches Gnostic or otherwise and don't intend to, unless of coarse there is a wedding or funeral that I must attend! I Wish you goodluck Danial and I will prey that the Lord will reveal himself to you as he has for many others! I hope whatever you decide, you maintain, in your heart, a belief in rightousness! I believe this is what the bible is refering to, when it says "the only way to heaven is through a belief in Jesus Christ"!
Just another mistaken translation in the Holy bible that we take Christ to mean the embodyment of a man instead of the ideology behind his beliefs! Good Luck my friend.

You may want to look at the words of Jesus translated from the original language without layers of western thought covering it up.
Jesus was essentially eastern, reading a translation unencumbered by western thought is like seeing it through a Crystal clear window after trying to read it through one with several layers of paint on it.

Much of it made no sense the way it was translated... "Blessed are the poor in spirit?" really?!... the Aramaic words didn't really translate to that.. but the western translators had no clue. That's a very minor example... take a look at works by Neil Douglas-Klotz especially in "The Hidden Gospel" or "Prayers of the Cosmos" to start at:

www.amazon.com...

Don't let any church "spoil" Jesus for you, at least until you look at what he really said...

reply to post by ddaniel


Have you ever made a mistake before? Then you could be making another, and, in fact, you've made some serious mistakes. You were never a "Christian," only a subscriber to the religion (aka faith). A real "Christian" in the born again sense is someone who has literally met Christ in a most profound, undeniable, and permanent way, and since then has had Jesus literally take up residence within. After that, there may be problems interpreting the Bible, but the experience is so profound that the receiver cannot doubt that the Bible is indeed sanctioned by God the Father. Also, although all three personages are as God, they are still distinct, and very literal, persons in spirit form, the Spirit, the Father, and Jesus. Sure, that seems odd to some people, and most fail to turn to God at the right time and thus never answer the call, never meet Jesus in the real. Millions of us have done that, and, while God's presence may wax and wane afterward, we know for a fact that Jesus is real, the "faith" part is just perservering until the end and waiting for an eternal life in a very vivid and real Heaven. Did you not study your Bible and listen to sermons carefully enough to hear that Jesus did not really die? He's here right now and knows your every thought. Perhaps your self styled philosophy will serve you well enough, but I encourage you to re-examine it from time to time and perhaps the truth will win, and you'll meet Jesus personally, an experience that you'll never forget.

Originally posted by poundpuppy

Originally posted by ddaniel In the true spirit of Christ, I wish you all a Merry Christmas.

The Bible is meant to be studied subject by subject not read like a normal book.
In order to study this book you should also have several different versions IE:KJV, NIV,etc etc etc Biblegateway.com is a great online Bible reference.
You need a set of encyclopedias.
You need several University Grade Dictionaries.
You need a complete Greek and Hebrew Lexicon.
You need a Strongs Exhaustive Concordance.

I don't mean to negate anything you're saying, but I humbly disagree.

All people need bring to the inquiry is themselves, and an open mind and a willing heart, nothing more.

Whoever knows him hears his voice, and if they're drawn, they'll find their way, but maybe not to the same kind of Christianity that is often taught and preached, requiring absolute submission, even of the mind, to the "right" and "proper" reading of "the word".

I've seen "sheepish" Christians, very outwardly pious, who are in truth the most unpleasant people you'll ever encounter, they're not even real some of them, and others are faking it while employing their mastery of the bible to hide the fact that they aren't really in a love relationship with the spirit of the Lord to begin with and never really were. Although they say they can see, they are like the blind leading the blind even into a pit of darkness (ignorance).

That's the problem today or one of them, as a Christian, is in finding authentic Christian fellowship which isn't trying to beat you about the head with the Bible, and heaping upon you a responsibility that Jesus did not charge us with.

Christianity ought to be about liberation, transformation and free self expression and inquiry, not as a rule book, but like a very intriguing inquiry into the true nature of God and man and of man's relationship with God through Jesus Christ through whom God's love became transparent.

They will hear his voice, know his person and character, his genius and his charm, just by looking for him with an open mind and a willing heart. It doesn't saddle us with a whole bunch of additional loads when we cannot even carry what we have on our backs to begin with, it doesn't work that way and cannot - not as a should, or a shouldn't, and that's my problem with a lot of Christians today, strict adherence to their church's interpretation of the word and how everything "should" be done, without the love at the heart of it. Jesus Christ isn't like a disciplinarian style teacher with a long ruler ready to hit you at the first instant of rebellion or incomprehension, he isn't trying to "tame" us, only re-organize or realign our passions with an aim towards the only thing that truly satisfies the human heart and is capable of putting a lasting smile upon our face, his love for us.

Our cup overflows.

Who is Jesus?



And that's just to begin with!

Very well put. Here's a few other reasons to be an ex-Christian. 1. The "Savior" doctrine. Acording to Scriptural prophecy a few BILLION people have to die in order for the Savior to return. Its actually a requirement that HAS to happen BEFORE He comes back. 4-5 BILLION people must be slaughtered for the Savior to arrive and save us. What??? Look it up, its in prophecy. How in the world can a "Savior" be a Savior if that many people have to die (not be saved), in order for the "Savior" to return to do any saving? As you folks on ATS know the world is run by relatively few people. If the Savior had any real power at all it would be a snap for Him to knock off the "elites" which would allow the rest of us to live in peace. The elites number in the thousands NOT billions. The billions they plan to get rid of. There you go Jesus, you want to save us? Want to prevent 4-5 billion of your children from being knocked off? Get rid of the people that want to knock us off. If you allow "them" to knock us off seems to me you're working for them - Not us.
AND, what kind of "rule" would He set up to govern the whole show? You sure as hell couldn't trust it. Look at all the people that had to die for Him to get here. Impossible to see how He cared for any of them. 4-5 billion people gone and you're gone to tell me He's all about love. I don't think so. Plus look at the billions of people that have already died throughout history waiting on this "Savior".
2. Christianity doesn't work. For 17 years I did everything "Christian" there is to do to get my health back and none of it worked. None of it. It was only after turning my back on the whole Christian "Fable" that my health returned. What does that say? Personal responsibility is valid. Saviors and Dogma is not.
3. Take a close look at the historical documents of Constantine when he literally created Jesus Christ by combining two gods. The God Hesus from northern Europe and the God Christna from the East. It was passed by a majority vote just like any majority vote in Congress passes. Didn't take long for that Hesus Christna to morph into Jesus Christ. Beside that, one of the Popes even admitted Christinity was a fable.
I could give you the references but I won't, look it up yourself.
Lots of good truth and wisdom in the Bible and many of the other religions books. That's how you sell a lie. Mix a little truth in there. Keeps you on your toes.
Toss "Belief" - go with truth...
Doc

You all, imagine, people thinking 2000 years later, they would know better than those who knew Christ personally. Nick at catholicnick.blogspot.com... gives two powerful reasons why we know Our Lord was born on December 25th.

I share a third, a mother would know. And Mary was acquainted with the Apostles, she lived with one, beloved John. She would share the date of Our Lord's birth with them. It's an important date!! The Apostles would pass it down via oral tradition.

Speak to Mary in prayer, she is everyone's mother, she will strengthen your faith. We're now in the Great Tribulation, do it. Pray her rosary, there's so much grace given in praying the rosary, you do not have to be
Catholic to pray the rosary. It takes 17 minutes to pray one rosary (one mystery). It is a prayer of meditation.
You repeat three main prayers, one is the Our Father, while you contemplate Our Lord's life and His mother with
Him. She was at every major event of Our Lord's life for 33 years, less two that I can think of... You can pray
the rosary when you walk or drive. Pray it every day, you will experience a change of heart, it's God's grace
coming down.

colbe

~ ~ ~

Thanks Nick...

an excerpt... The first good reason to accept December 25 is because of March 25. Traditionally, the Feast of the Annunciation was held in higher regard than the Nativity, since the Annunciation is when The Word first became Incarnate. Naturally, this would mean that 9 months later the Nativity would take place. Thus, December 25 comes about by the simple fact that the Annunciation was the anchor point. Great minds (such as our current Holy Father) have pointed out that March 25 carries its own significance, with it being a date that Passover has fallen on as well the date in which some Jews consider the first day of Creation.


The second good reason to accept December 25 is a bit more involved to explain, but I'll do my best. The basic argument looks something like this: We know that Jesus had a public ministry of 3.5 years and that He died on the 15th of the Jewish month of Nisan (basically late March). If you count backwards the 3.5 years, which are 42 Jewish months, this puts you at November 8. In Luke 3 we are told that Jesus was baptized on the cusp of turning 30, which is when a Jew became a 'man' and could teach. Since His Baptism was followed by 40 days in the desert and 7 days of temptation, then adding 47 days to November 8 puts us at December 25, which makes sense because it means Jesus had no further 'prerequisites' stopping Him from immediately beginning His public work (e.g. calling the Apostles) the moment He became of age.

reply to post by Healthlaws

What if he were to knock the hats of the top 1000 and drive them to their knees in repentance instead, would that work for ya?

There are different ways of interpreting Revelation you know. I've found it's best to start at the last page and work your way backwards, then you find all the snares and all the traps springing them as you go.

Some things might have been meant to "goad" us.. to test our mettle and see what we're really made of, and on that score most "Christians" fail according to their "biblioatry" and so you have millions praying for the end of the world, and, for their own deliverance from the "tribulation" when all the while it's our own tribulation that precedes our deliverance from it, and thus our entry into the new creation where/when "the spirit and the bride say come, and let all who hear say come, and freely drink the living water" (flow of eternal life). The end.

A major sign....

For the first time in 31 years Our Lord spoke in the December 25th apparition at Medjugorje. Our Lord appeared
as an infant, the child Jesus on His mother's arm. Mary remained quiet. Our Lord's words:

December 25, 2012

"I am your peace, keep My Commandments."



www.spiritdaily.com...