Thoughts from a former Christian

reply to post by ddaniel


I bagged your OP in an earlier post, but have re read your OP.
So I apologise, as I misunderstood you, I think.
I know God exists and know of what you say.
I remember making beds in a nursing home on a very brief career change.
It was hot sweaty and demeaning in my mind.
I was a recent Born Again Christian, and Jesus Christ spoke into my heart, and told me to continue in his name, in loves name.
I was not offered a permanent job for speaking up in my placement course meeting against the treatment of the residents.
They said I wasn't suitable.
But for a couple of weeks I made beds , took old and sick human beings to the toilet, fed them ect.
Human beings who had lost loved ones, their homes and finally their dignity.
People who do work in Nursing homes are doing Gods work, the treatment they sometimes receive is due to lack of funding, something we should all be ashamed of.
But God is in there, in the carers hearts who work there, and keeping love alive.
Its all as you say..about love.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


God plainly states in His Word:

"Hosea 4:6 King James Version (KJV)
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children."

This one passage tells me I better know what I am believing in if I want to be able to enter in at the narrow gate for wide is the gate that leads to hell and it is big enough to encompass the entire Earth but narrow is the gate that leads to eternal Salvation and few find it.

Peace be unto you. .

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

You didn't understand. If we live in a Multiverse...which is an Infinite System...this means there is a 100% Probability that there is a Divergent Universal Reality where GOD must exist...as well as a 100% Probability a Divergent Universal Reality exists that has no GOD.

In a Infinite System all possibilities MUST exist. This is in fact a reality of an Infinite System.

Split Infinity

ps. This is the MATH talking not guesswork or theory.

and mathematical systems don't always reflect reality. Science always uses the hypothetical in their equations to make sense of things. For example, the frictionless plane. A mathematically calculable reality, but unfound in our physical reality. In the same sense, while equations may work, they don't necessarily reflect physical reality and the multiverse, until there is sufficient proof of it's reality, is simply a math equation that works and beyond that, requires faith that it exists.

reply to post by ddaniel


I know you are sick and tired of what you see as the way people or Christians are going about their beliefs. Unless I have made a mistake...I read a post where you stated that people were lost without Jesus...perhaps you were being sarcastic...if I have read this wrong I apologize.

Split Infinity

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


There has NEVER been an instance in the History of Man where something has been found to exist that the Math had not already dictated that it did.

Split Infinity

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


I was injecting a bit of humour with the quote from the comedian. I guess it went over your head. I am agnostic if you most know. Those thousands of christian denominations all have different ideas look at catholics and protestants in Ireland. Or those beloved westboro church freaks which to your logic have irrelevant issue but are basically the same. What about mormons some consider them christian but go to the planet kolob after death. What about those pentecostals that speak in tongues. Or the lutherian and calvanist who burned and executed witches in the 1800's and before just irrelevant issues. what about Jehovah;s witnesses predicting the end of the world 8 times or Harold Camping predictiing the end of the world too numerous times.
What about Rev Robert Hislop The Two Babylons shows that christianity is pagan. I suppose you have a cross somewhere well it comes from the birth of the unconquered sun or son.Nimrod reborn to a christmas/evergreen tree the god Tammuz which is represented as a capital T. Symbols of christmas are death and rebirth(wreath and christmas tree) The egyptian ankh or cross is a symbol of life. Catholics adopted the cross with the handle or ankh. I will give you mythra for the sake of argument but those symbols and everything else you cant dispute.

Maybe this will get you thinking Jesus didnt come to bring peace.
Do not think that I came to bring peace on Earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. (Matthew 10:34
So I am suppose to love Jesus more than my family. People have been told this for two thousand years for some reward that Jesus promises. In the mean time while I only live a certain number of years I am suppose put Jesus first to the detriment of my daughter/wife/brother/mother/father because they dont believe or they have sinned or whatever.

Doesnt Jesus say he that doesnt love is his brother does not love me so which is it. Jesus is suppose to preach love but he demands it over anything thing else. This is someone I have never seen and only read about who I have no guarantee because no one has seen the other side and no evidence of this promise. Religion divides and I see in my own family and with you. No one knows. There are too many unknows to know for sure of anything ..............

now here is my real read of this verse substitute the name Jesus with your own name. If you dont love yourself first you can not love others and sacrifice yourself and get things back.The kingdom of god is within. Now why did I have to read through the lines and try and decifer this or maybe I have it wrong. Why doesnt god just talk straight and to the point but according to you this might be the point so that makes Jesus a pretty selfish guy whether he existed or not.This story was written 40 or so years after the fact and things get embellished and we as humans tend to do this. Prime example here is mormans they hold Joseph smith as god. His whole history was changed now look at the morman church it is huge but is it based on a lie of a con man. That was over a hundred years ago. Christianity has had two thousand years of being messed with and revised.

Good luck on your faith if it makes you happy. Being in a religion and religious made me miserable.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

There has NEVER been an instance in the History of Man where something has been found to exist that the Math had not already dictated that it did.

Split Infinity

Can math explain consciousness?

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

There has NEVER been an instance in the History of Man where something has been found to exist that the Math had not already dictated that it did.

Split Infinity

Mathematics is that it in itself operates under a certain set of rules. 1+1 always = 2. There is no instance in our universe where this is not true. These parameters must come from somewhere. Are they simply a product of chance? Or could there be an author to these constants and quantities?

Again the main problem is that you cannot prove math. In other words, math presupposes logic. To suggest that math proves logic and therefore logic proves math is a circular argument. The same goes for science. Math and logic are presupposed in order for sciences to operate properly. Do you suggest that man is the author of math and numbers? Because I would suggest that numbers, like language, are human means of describing something that exists eternally beyond our grasp. We can harness it to a degree, but we certainly did not create numbers.

All the denials of Our Lord here, I want to cry. Jesus loves you more than you do yourself~! Can't you
see everything is getting darker, the "grace" of God is off our nation. Please, just ask God for the faith to believe
in His love for you. Turn to Him now...pray...we all can do this, repentance and prayer.

Maybe this current dire message will help. Thou shalt not kill is a Commandment. The fruit of contraception is
legalized abortion. The fruit of abortion is nuclear war.

God bless you all and for our nation Jesus mercy,

~ ~ ~

reply to post by colbe

reply to post by celticdog


I keep saying this, but you seem to think you have it all figured out but most of your argument is what's called a genetic fallacy. In other words, you prescribe Christianity as untrue based on the behaviors and actions of those who adhere to it. Let me ask you this. Stalin was an atheist and killed millions of his own people. Does that mean atheism is not true? No it does not. The truth claim of atheism has nothing to do with the actions of its adherents. It makes your arguments about the Crusades and the Inquisition as a non-sequitur in the conversation about whether Biblical Christianity is true or not.

BTW, Hislop's book "Two Babylons" is one of my favorite books. I know the pagan origins of cultural Christianity. You are assuming that I am some dumb blind cultural sheep. I am not. Like I mentioned, I have looked into these matters quite deeply. It has not shaken my foundational theology.

And as far as Mormons or JW's, they are not Christian in the true sense because their core theology is way off, but I won't get into that here.

As far as Matthew 10:34, you have to get deeper into the text and apply proper hermeneutics and exegesis (look those things up if you don't know what they are)

So your claim is that Jesus didn't come to make peace, but a sword...let's compare that to Matthew 26:52 when He says: ""Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

In this instance, Jesus is talking about a physical sword. But the sword that is mentioned in Matthew 10:34 is not a physical sword. The sword in the allegorical sense is the Word of God. (Ephesians 6:17) We know this for sure because of context. If we continue on Matthew 10, we read all the things about being separated from father-son etc. The point Jesus is making is that His message is exclusive. As uncomfortable as it may be, the Gospel message of Jesus Christ exposes and separates truth from error. His point is that the physical world, our material possession, even our own earthly family are not eternal things...they are temporary. And putting our trust and faith in temporary things will not bring us the eternal promise.

In historical context, the Jews expected the Savior to bring peace in the world. Jesus will bring peace eventually in His second coming, but this peace CANNOT come with JUSTICE. Think about it. If a judge let's a murderer go free because it's the loving thing to do, justice would not be served. Or what about a child who wants something? If you gave them everything they wanted, what kind of child would they become? Sometimes, the most loving thing to do is to NOT give them what they want.

Going deeper here in Matthew 10, there is a cost for being a follower of Jesus Christ. It's not all flowers and pickles. In fact, your accusations to me that my beliefs are wrong is an example of what Jesus was talking about here. His message would shake things up. His message will divide men. Has it? Sure has. Does it mean it's ok to go out and kill people and force people to believe in Jesus? No. The duty of a Christian is to spread the good news...that this world is not all there is. That through this guy Jesus, you can have eternal life.

Isn't it interesting that most of us humans all understand and know there is something wrong with the world? We all long for something "better" do we not? Some seek it with money, fame, status, etc. But do those things satisfy? You tell me. Does being rich mean you're happy? What about peace on earth? We all want it. We all desire it. But so far humanity doesn't have a very good track record. TPTB have all the control/money etc they could ever have...are they satisfied? No. Why do they continue to push for a One World Government etc? And what if they get it? Do they sit back and drink lemonade and say "we did it"?

What I am getting at is that Jesus in Matthew 10 is saying that His message of truth is not going to be accepted by all. It's going to cause strife and division. And if we remain bound to the things that will never satisfy the deepest longing in our human hearts, we will miss the free gift of freedom that Jesus provides.

The bible say the truth will set you free. Do you believe that?

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


You cannot prove Math? What the Hell does that mean? The entire purpose of Math is to derive a proof for the Physical. As far as numbers...we have devised a base Ten numerical system basically because we have 10 digits on our two hands and two feet. If we had say 12 we would be using a base 12 numerical system so YES...we have created the numbers to represent numerical quantities.

Math is simply a way to quantify the Universe or Multiverse. Even we can be represented with Math and if one were capable of knowing and thus assigning a numerical representation for all Particle/Wave/Forms in the Universe as well as for their position...one could accurately predict the future actions of anything anywhere in the Universe.

Split Infinity

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

You cannot prove Math? What the Hell does that mean? The entire purpose of Math is to derive a proof for the Physical. As far as numbers...we have devised a base Ten numerical system basically because we have 10 digits on our two hands and two feet. If we had say 12 we would be using a base 12 numerical system so YES...we have created the numbers to represent numerical quantities.

Math is simply a way to quantify the Universe or Multiverse. Even we can be represented with Math and if one were capable of knowing and thus assigning a numerical representation for all Particle/Wave/Forms in the Universe as well as for their position...one could accurately predict the future actions of anything anywhere in the Universe.

Split Infinity

dude...numbers don't exist in the physical world. The number 2 doesn't exist anywhere in the universe. There are two objects...two fingers etc. But the number itself is a non-physical...you can say metaphysical proposition.

Are you saying numbers didn't exist before the mind did? That's irrational. 1+1=2 was true before we figured it out. Do you not agree? Are you saying that only after we learned how to count our fingers was this equation true? That makes no sense.

reply to post by ddaniel


Not sure if this reply will get read, but this post has encouraged me.

I have an uncle, who is a Baptist preacher. I have another uncle (his brother) who is a gay man. The division this has caused is colossal and it's taken a toll on the family for many years, on many different occasions.
After a lot of time studying, learning, praying, *living* in this world i can't help but think...
the problem isn't the fact that my uncle's gay, it's the fact that his brother won't accept him.

At any rate, I love the way this post is worded, it deserves to be seen.
S&F

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

His point is that the physical world, our material possession, even our own earthly family are not eternal things...they are temporary. And putting our trust and faith in temporary things will not bring us the eternal promise.

Indeed. Instead, let us put our faith and our dependence in something that has, up to this day, failed to save billions and billions of lives. All it really does is give us hope to move forward. But what if we only THINK we can move forward in such a fashion?

"There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope." - Bane, The Dark Knight Rises

What if Christianity is simply a disguise for something more stark and terrible than anything we could have guessed? What if it is not a religion of peace and love, but rather an illusion to provide hope for a hopeless race, a race that chooses to shackle itself to its flaws because it is too weak to stand up and embrace that which makes it imperfect? Too weak to shake hands with its inner demons and learn from them?

That is what makes us weak. That is why we need the illusion. And that is why we despair, why we turn to a mythical being to deliver us from ourselves. Because we refuse to accept who we are.

Originally posted by TearThePod
reply to post by ddaniel

 

I have an uncle, who is a Baptist preacher. I have another uncle (his brother) who is a gay man. The division this has caused is colossal and it's taken a toll on the family for many years, on many different occasions.
After a lot of time studying, learning, praying, *living* in this world i can't help but think...
the problem isn't the fact that my uncle's gay, it's the fact that his brother won't accept him.

Well said, and directly relevant to the point of this thread. Christian doctrine systematically denies love to an entire subset of the population, going directly against the most prevalent teachings of the Bible, and every other religion: Love is what it's all about.

It is the modern equivalent of forbidding interracial relationships.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

His point is that the physical world, our material possession, even our own earthly family are not eternal things...they are temporary. And putting our trust and faith in temporary things will not bring us the eternal promise.

Indeed. Instead, let us put our faith and our dependence in something that has, up to this day, failed to save billions and billions of lives. All it really does is give us hope to move forward. But what if we only THINK we can move forward in such a fashion?

"There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope." - Bane, The Dark Knight Rises

What if Christianity is simply a disguise for something more stark and terrible than anything we could have guessed? What if it is not a religion of peace and love, but rather an illusion to provide hope for a hopeless race, a race that chooses to shackle itself to its flaws because it is too weak to stand up and embrace that which makes it imperfect? Too weak to shake hands with its inner demons and learn from them?

That is what makes us weak. That is why we need the illusion. And that is why we despair, why we turn to a mythical being to deliver us from ourselves. Because we refuse to accept who we are.

Quoted for emphasis. Bravo, sir

Originally posted by ddaniel
I drifted from the Church to follow my own heart, and in doing so began to question many of the things I had been taught growing up. This is easy to write, but it was probably the hardest thing I have ever done. To go against everything my family and respected friends told me was no easy thing, especially when I held a deeply ingrained belief of eternal punishment for going 'against the Word of God'.

Thank you much for posting about the one thing that drives me to sadness. "The deification of a book”, and disregarding the content, which is often very life affirming. I too went through a similar process as you. I tried for 3 years to fit into and twist myself out of the Gay cloistering I was raised in, (lol). Anyhow I went to work one night and I saw one of the pastors of the church that was trying to cast out the particular "Gay Demon" sitting in this restaurant I worked in. He said hello, when I came by to acknowledge him. He then placed his hands in very inappropriate areas of my body. I left the church crying. I had called my Brother (a Pagan) in San Francisco and told him what had happened. He invited me to come stay with him till the shock of it al was over, I went. I arrived at the Summer Solstice celebration and the first thing I realized was that these people far more true to there religion than any Christian I had met (Including the pastor that grabbed me by the). (He had a thorn in his side I guess).

Anyhow I too came to find more meaning in the teachings of Jesus and nurturing the Christ within (and greater things shall you do), which I think refers to the fact that by doing greater things increases ones relationship with the whole of the sum of all things.

Just wanted to let you know how much I appreciated reading your post as I have felt like an oddity for a long time and rarely find people who confess there doubts of what they are force fed. I was particularly touched by the simplicity in which you describe the quoted

I am glad that I went back to the Book and read from cover to cover as it has a whole new meaning to me now which is private and should be.

Thanks.

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


The truth will set you free but what truth that is the question. So if you are born gay or intersexed the bible wouldn't be the truth. Know yourself accept yourself sets you free. The bible sets rules some cant conform to because of who they are. They have to deny who they are and hide it from everyone. There has been many who have committed suicide because they are forced to hate who they are because of god/Jesus/bible.

Is something good because God commands it so or does God command it so because it is good?
God would never command immoral acts right.
God does command rape and murder several times in the Old Testament. For example, in Numbers 31:1-54 God commands Moses and his army to "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." The army comes back with 32,000 virgins after doing God's will.
This causes cognitive dissonance.Doing something you know is wrong but it is ok because god commands it.
Being true to yourself causes consonance a balance.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

His point is that the physical world, our material possession, even our own earthly family are not eternal things...they are temporary. And putting our trust and faith in temporary things will not bring us the eternal promise.

Indeed. Instead, let us put our faith and our dependence in something that has, up to this day, failed to save billions and billions of lives. All it really does is give us hope to move forward. But what if we only THINK we can move forward in such a fashion?

"There's a reason why this prison is the worst hell on earth... Hope. Every man who has ventured here over the centuries has looked up to the light and imagined climbing to freedom. So easy... So simple... And like shipwrecked men turning to sea water from uncontrollable thirst, many have died trying. I learned here that there can be no true despair without hope." - Bane, The Dark Knight Rises

What if Christianity is simply a disguise for something more stark and terrible than anything we could have guessed? What if it is not a religion of peace and love, but rather an illusion to provide hope for a hopeless race, a race that chooses to shackle itself to its flaws because it is too weak to stand up and embrace that which makes it imperfect? Too weak to shake hands with its inner demons and learn from them?

That is what makes us weak. That is why we need the illusion. And that is why we despair, why we turn to a mythical being to deliver us from ourselves. Because we refuse to accept who we are.

"...failed to save billions and billions of lives..." isn't this very thing guilty of what I stated? Holding onto the finite world? I understand where you're coming from if you believe that this is it. This world is all we got and when you die, you're done. Nothing else. But if that really is the case, then isn't the "purpose" and reason for living at all purely a delusion? Importance of this life is merely something that you occupy for a short while and then you're gone?

So define for me what you means by "save" because again, none of us live forever on this earth.

And Christianity never claims to be a "religion of peace and love". Peace and love are major parts of the effect of true Biblical Christianity, but it's not central doctrine. The change of heart (repentance) is what causes peace and love. It's not a mandate to be saved. That's a straw man that get's built up and torn down a lot and it's inaccurate. Like I mentioned in my post, Jesus even declared that His message would divide people.

TRUTH by definition is an exclusive claim.

"Because we refuse to accept who we are." So who are we according to you? And again you built a straw-man here. Christianity is NOT saying, "look how inadequate we are, we need a mythical being to save us." Rather it is saying, we are beautiful creatures of God who belong in a world that encompasses perfect peace and perfect love. This is a fact and it's proof is based on your desire to live in a world that is peaceful and loving. While we can reflect God's love and peace to others around us (which is a huge part of the Christian message...being salt and light unto the world), we will not regain Eden on our own. Why? Because we as humanity are fallen.

The ideology of the NWO and the Illuminati and even many occultists etc is to create a utopia. The people we point the finger at, the political leaders, the bankers etc, I am willing to bet many of them believe they are doing what they can to make the world a better place. But what happens is that when we fixate on this ideal, we begin to think in terms of things like de-population (Gorgia Guidestones...we have to kill off 90% of humanity to sustain balance between humanity and nature) etc. We get people like Hitler (we must kill off parts of humanity to create a master race) etc.

Do you at least see where I am coming from? People don't wake up and think "Let's see...what evil can I do today?" In fact, I bet you Hitler believed that he was doing humanity good by killing millions.

The Gospel message is that we don't have to burden ourselves with this quest because God will restore. In the meantime, we are to be salt (prevent decay) and light unto the world. We are to love our neighbor. We are to help the poor, the needy, the forgotten, the marginalized etc. Do we do it perfectly? Heck no. But that's exactly why Christians are seen as hypocrites. Because our mission is clear, but we fail to attain it. And don't even try to tell me you have the grand solution because you don't. We all fail at this. If you are suggesting you don't then you are just as big of a hypocrite.

Originally posted by celticdog
reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

 

The truth will set you free but what truth that is the question. So if you are born gay or intersexed the bible wouldn't be the truth. Know yourself accept yourself sets you free. The bible sets rules some cant conform to because of who they are. They have to deny who they are and hide it from everyone. There has been many who have committed suicide because they are forced to hate who they are because of god/Jesus/bible.

Is something good because God commands it so or does God command it so because it is good?
God would never command immoral acts right.
God does command rape and murder several times in the Old Testament. For example, in Numbers 31:1-54 God commands Moses and his army to "Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." The army comes back with 32,000 virgins after doing God's will.
This causes cognitive dissonance.Doing something you know is wrong but it is ok because god commands it.
Being true to yourself causes consonance a balance.

"So if you are born gay or intersexed the bible wouldn't be the truth." Straw man argument. We are all created in the image of God. God loves the gay man and the intersexed just as much as He loves you or I. The topic of how the church at large has treated the gay community is tragic...at the same time, the gay community has been just as hostile in return.

"The bible sets rules some cant conform to because of who they are" Again a straw-man. The Bible does not set rules. Men set rules. God gives us what we ought to do. They are not mandates to "get into heaven" etc. And the point of something like the 10 commandments is to show that man is incapable of following such standards. I mean who really has lived a life fulfilling the 10 commandments perfectly? Only one person has done it in all of human history and that was the point.

"There has been many who have committed suicide because they are forced to hate who they are because of god/Jesus/bible." Genetic fallacy. Does this mean Christianity is not true? We all have free will. Keep in mind I am not trying to defend people's actions just because they call themselves "Christian". Folks like Westboro Baptist Church are so off on their theology it's quite sad. It's not to point a finger and single them out because non-Christians are just as bad. How many atheists call "fundamental Christians" "bigots" etc? I've been called a bigot. I've been called an ignorant Bible thumper etc.

Your entire second paragraph needs to be addressed here. First off, your theology and your definition of God is off. Ever heard the phrase "God is good all the time"? God by definition is good. But you say, how could God be good and order the murder of a nation, wives and kids etc? Here's a link that get's into the details...

www.apologeticspress.org...

In a nutshell, the nation of Canaan was so evil, that the only way to preserve the messianic line was to destroy the nation that was trying to destroy them. Remember that things were different 4 millennia ago. It was literally kill or be killed. Hypothetical situation...let's say you were part of a 100 person tribe and there was another tribe that was 1000 strong who was evil and all they wanted to do was destroy your tribe. You could kill the warriors of that tribe, but the children born into the tribe were going to be bred to be murderers and killers going after your tribe in the future. What would you do? Let the so called innocent live and grow up to be future enemies? This is a tough one and doesn't have a clear cut answer. But it's the situation the Israelites found themselves in and the kind of dilemma that God addresses.

God sees the big picture. He understands that things have to be done that don't make sense at the time for a greater purpose. Ever have a situation in your life that devastated you at the time but later came to realize that it was the best thing that could happen to you? Much of the OT narrative is along these lines...and interestingly enough, the Israelites ALWAYS failed to fulfill what God told them to do. In fact, I would have done the same. I can relate to you and the Israelites who disobeyed God because at the time, it would make no sense.

But there is a deeper moral issue here. You are suggesting that there is an objective moral standard of which is violated by God himself are you not? Where does this objective standard come from? If good and bad are only defined by each individual, then the very things "good and bad" become obsolete and meaningless.

There is also the Nephilim factor that I will get into if you would like. This topic is so vital in understanding the OT, but even many Christians are uncomfortable with the premise.