Thoughts from a former Christian

reply to post by ddaniel


just let it go. When I encountered people like you who were basically preaching their beliefs, even other varieties of Christianity, I would take up a hardline defensive position and argue against it even long after the person was gone.

I would then return to my prayers and bible reading with even more fanatical fervor because I "knew" I was being persecuted by the devil.

Even now, I still have the mentality of the deeply religious in my mind but I am aware (most of the time) that it is just because of lifelong brainwashing.

Only time can wake the world up when they finally realize no true saviour/Mahdi/messiah is coming for them to deep fry people of other beliefs for all eternity.

reply to post by ddaniel

I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. Growing up, my idea of God was shaped around this mindset, and I tried very hard to adhere to the lifestyle my church promoted. I did everything you were 'supposed' to do - quiet times, prayers, etc, but never seemed to feel the 'personal relationship' with Christ I was so often told about.

That's the sad thing about most so-called Christians these days, they teach in doing works, or acts, like it's something you're supposed to do to stay in line with God and not risk going to Hell.

Truth is, your personal relationship with Christ starts with one thing - belief in him. Then, you simply talk to him and learn more about him, about his love, about his life, about what he did for you. Then go from there. You seriously don't need to do ANYTHING to get to heaven, other than believing. Jesus himself says multiple times, when asked what people must do to do what God wants, and Jesus replies that God wants us to simply believe in Christ. That's the will of God.

How is belief that the Bible (or any other Holy book) is the 'perfect Word of God' anything other than idolatry?

For some people, it is. For me, well, some people believe I have a huge lack of respect for the Bible, considering I'll put a pack of smokes on top of my Bible in my room and someone will go "wtf". It's simply a material book, though. The words inscribed are meaningful and are more spiritually provoking, and reside in your head and heart after reading them. Of course, I wouldn't recommended PURPOSEFULLY degrading any book. But it ain't sending you to hell, if you believe in Christ.

Then again, some people say that worshiping Jesus is idolatry in itself. I'd disagree. An idol is something that "represents" another thing. It is one "lesser" creation serving in place of a "higher" creation, in order to be worshiped. Jesus, however, is not a representation of God. Jesus IS God, so he is not an idol.

Despite my division with organized religion, I still admire Jesus in a way I cannot express. What's funny is, I never really felt I 'knew' Jesus until I stepped away from the Christian indoctrination I was raised to adhere to. To me, the beautiful thing about Jesus was his message of love. When asked what the greatest commandments were, Jesus replied: love The Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Then to say you are a former Christian is incorrect. In fact, you speak as if you are a Christian still. Not in a religious sense, but in the truest sense of the word. You see, I don't go to church. I've been about 4 times this year, 3 times to get at a girl and once with my friend who came to Christ after 20 years of being an atheist. Other than that, it's not necessary for me. What is important, is that you follow Christ's words. And like you said, Jesus said to love. So that's what we do. We love, we serve, we have faith.

God bless, my friend. Hopefully, even if you don't agree with the church, or what other people say, I still hope you believe in the words of Christ and who he is.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by ddaniel


How is belief that the Bible (or any other Holy book) is the 'perfect Word of God' anything other than idolatry?

Despite my division with organized religion, I still admire Jesus in a way I cannot express. What's funny is, I never really felt I 'knew' Jesus until I stepped away from the Christian indoctrination I was raised to adhere to. To me, the beautiful thing about Jesus was his message of love. When asked what the greatest commandments were, Jesus replied: love The Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

You missed the point of the book and it's message and you did not, ever know Jesus. This is your problem. This is also the problem with 99% of all southern Baptists, Catholics and other "Christian" religions.

I'm not sure how any of this relates to what I said, but I can play this game too! You've never known Jesus. This is your problem!

Don't you think it's a bit egotistical and immature to speak on behalf of someone you have never met, and know very little about (i.e. ME)?

I was about 18 when I started to question my own Southern Baptist upbringing. I saw things written in the Bible the Baptist did not believe in and things that were not in the bible they did teach.
...
You don't have to believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. The Bible is a Book, and we casually call it a Book - you don't have to revere it like some holy relic. That's not important. What is important is the words Jesus spoke because those words have keys to life through the Holy Spirit - that understanding comes only in living those words of Jesus.

I'm a bit confused, because you say you view the Bible as 'just a book', yet use it to justify your beliefs and actions. If you're looking for the teachings of Jesus, have you studied the Gospel of Thomas, or Nag Hammadi texts?

If you live those words, all of them, strive to do that along with an honest mindset ( there is no such thing as the heart, it's the mind.. same word used that has for years been taken out of context) then you can start to see the power of the Christian life show up as something real - in ways you've never dreamed of before. Gone is all the talk and discussion, and here is the practical application of power through Jesus's words. I learned through Jesus's words how to exercise this power.

To heal the sick, cast out demons, speak with new tongues, When you have experienced something as powerful as anointing someones head with oil and placing you hand on their head and praying for them and within seconds see that person healed of sickness and disease and have it verified by a doctor - and then do it again on a consistent basis - you have no doubt that this stuff works, because you did what was required to allow yourself to be used in this manner by God - this point most people never get to. That's the problem.

Forgive me, but i'm doubtful about your ability to perform miracles based on your disposition.

There are siddhas in India who can perform 'miracles' as well, with Jesus having nothing to do with it. I suppose these powers come from the Devil?

My interest is in experiencing divine truth, and lessening the suffering of my fellow man. I couldn't care less about parlor tricks

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
You missed the point of the book and it's message and you did not, ever know Jesus. This is your problem. This is also the problem with 99% of all southern Baptists, Catholics and other "Christian" religions.

There is your missing KEY OP...

You have had an encounter with an IMPOSTER (AKA religion)

You need an encounter with the GENUINE (AKA God)

God and religion have NOTHING in common.

Many of you have simply confused religion with God.

Once a person has experienced a REAL encounter with the Creator of the universe, there is no more doubt.

Here is an example of this :


Ian Clayton Interviews
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here is another example:


CONNECTING with God and our purpose in life should be every ones goal in life
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by ddaniel

Originally posted by ddaniel
There are siddhas in India who can perform 'miracles' as well, with Jesus having nothing to do with it. I suppose these powers come from the Devil?

I highly recommend listening to Ian Clayton, he has seen this from both sides...

"Ian Clayton, a New Zealand prophet and father of four, is a man who found himself seemingly chosen by the demonic realm to become a great occult leader.

At age 12, his growing awareness of God led him to the Bible and he started reading it from the beginning. Halfway through Deuteronomy he decided that it was full of rules and regulations and didn’t want anything to do with it. Just as he shut the Bible he heard a voice say, “Put your hand on top of the table and pick the table up.” Ian put his hand flat on the table top and it rose, sideways off the floor.

“It was an amazing power rush,” Ian explained. “Suddenly, I walked in power.”
Spirits started materializing at night and taught Ian how to do things such as astral travel and psychic healing, pendulum diagnosis, use of herbs in healing and in gaining power, and the power of demons in the spirit world. As the lessons continued, people grew frightened of Ian’s power. Many would talk about the headaches they got after being around him—headaches Ian attributes to the demonic resonance of the spirit force around his life. Meanwhile, signs and wonders manifested in Ian’s life much to his surprise and others’ shock.

“I would put my hand out and it would go into the wall—not up against it,” he said.

Excerpt from Shifting Shadows of Supernatural Power

It was the "christians" themselves that turned me off of christianity.
The self professed christians would do well and would be more christ like if they would throw away the whole bible and just keep this one small part of it:

1 Corinthians 13

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned,[a] but have not love, it profits me nothing.

4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.

13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

On these types of threads, I read a lot of, "The only real problem with Christianity is when it is interpreted wrong or perverted."

That simply isn't true at all.

The very act of believing in something because a book or some authority tells you, is stunting your intellectual growth. And when an entire society does it, you end up with a pretty dumb society.

Look around you. Most people don't think for themselves or produce for themselves. They need someone to do it for them or give them the answer. And, IMO, a lot of that is because of religion. Not because of some perverted interpretation of the religion, but because of the fundamental aspect to ALL religions.. Blind faith. Accepting an answer without using scientific reasoning and critical thinking.

It's OK to NOT KNOW. The minute you accept something as "just the way it is," is the moment curiosity dies and intellectual growth stops. Curiosity is what intelligence is based on. Without it, you aren't much more than a robot... Or sheep.

When Einstein was asked what it was like to be so much smarter than everyone he said, "I'm not smarter than everyone else, just more curious."

And this is why it's so easy to believe that the powers that be use, or at least take advantage of, religion as a tool to control people. It teaches submission and dependence. The last thing corporations and their government puppets want is for people to be critical thinkers and self sufficient. You can't make much of a profit off of a self sufficient, intelligent society.

Originally posted by Reflection
The very act of believing in something because a book or some authority tells you, is stunting your intellectual growth. And when an entire society does it, you end up with a pretty dumb society.

I don't believe in Jesus because a book...

I believe because I have personally MET Him...

Just like the videos I just posted above.

You are confusing religion with TRUTH.

There IS a HUGE difference....

Originally posted by ddaniel

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix

Originally posted by ddaniel


How is belief that the Bible (or any other Holy book) is the 'perfect Word of God' anything other than idolatry?

Despite my division with organized religion, I still admire Jesus in a way I cannot express. What's funny is, I never really felt I 'knew' Jesus until I stepped away from the Christian indoctrination I was raised to adhere to. To me, the beautiful thing about Jesus was his message of love. When asked what the greatest commandments were, Jesus replied: love The Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

You missed the point of the book and it's message and you did not, ever know Jesus. This is your problem. This is also the problem with 99% of all southern Baptists, Catholics and other "Christian" religions.

I'm not sure how any of this relates to what I said, but I can play this game too! You've never known Jesus. This is your problem!

Don't you think it's a bit egotistical and immature to speak on behalf of someone you have never met, and know very little about (i.e. ME)?

I was about 18 when I started to question my own Southern Baptist upbringing. I saw things written in the Bible the Baptist did not believe in and things that were not in the bible they did teach.
...
You don't have to believe the Bible is the perfect word of God. The Bible is a Book, and we casually call it a Book - you don't have to revere it like some holy relic. That's not important. What is important is the words Jesus spoke because those words have keys to life through the Holy Spirit - that understanding comes only in living those words of Jesus.

I'm a bit confused, because you say you view the Bible as 'just a book', yet use it to justify your beliefs and actions. If you're looking for the teachings of Jesus, have you studied the Gospel of Thomas, or Nag Hammadi texts?

If you live those words, all of them, strive to do that along with an honest mindset ( there is no such thing as the heart, it's the mind.. same word used that has for years been taken out of context) then you can start to see the power of the Christian life show up as something real - in ways you've never dreamed of before. Gone is all the talk and discussion, and here is the practical application of power through Jesus's words. I learned through Jesus's words how to exercise this power.

To heal the sick, cast out demons, speak with new tongues, When you have experienced something as powerful as anointing someones head with oil and placing you hand on their head and praying for them and within seconds see that person healed of sickness and disease and have it verified by a doctor - and then do it again on a consistent basis - you have no doubt that this stuff works, because you did what was required to allow yourself to be used in this manner by God - this point most people never get to. That's the problem.

Forgive me, but i'm doubtful about your ability to perform miracles based on your disposition.

There are siddhas in India who can perform 'miracles' as well, with Jesus having nothing to do with it. I suppose these powers come from the Devil?

My interest is in experiencing divine truth, and lessening the suffering of my fellow man. I couldn't care less about parlor tricks

edit on 26-12-2012 by ddaniel because: typo

And thus you proved my point. Not trying to be egotistical but the facts are if you would have experienced such things as I did you would KNOW there was something real to this stuff. Since you do not KNOW that enough to stick with it, that shows you really didn't know at all - once you really see it like I did there is no way you can deny it - you would not be as you claim - a former Christian - there is no way you could walk away from Christianity once you experienced these things in these very real ways.

Yes, I have read other books like the Gospel of Thomas Should they have been canonized? That's not for me to say, do they contain any truth? Depends.. if the words of Jesus in those books do not contradict other things Jesus has said then you can assume at least the reporting of Jesus's words are valid. Do the powers others have through other religions come from the devil? I don't know though thats certainly possible as is the powers of Catholic Priests casting out demons can come from the devil when those priests don't even try to live up to Jesus's teachings at all. They could receive nothing from God according to the book.

The thing is we are talking about Christianity and putting this dispensation to the test. To find out if there is anything real about it for people personally, something practical and tangible that goes beyond the hype for the purposes of " experiencing divine truth, and lessening the suffering of my fellow man" as you put it.

reply to post by Murgatroid


I'm not confusing religion with truth at all.

Truth just is and religion is an attempt to deal with existential fear and explain the unknown.

Science is an attempt to explain the unknown too, but it uses questioning, testing, reasoning and critical thinking, not superstition, old, passed down stories and dogma.

In your case, your belief in Jesus, having met him, is based on observation, which would be somewhat scientific if it was testable.

Originally posted by ddaniel

Faith is inherently a personal thing, so how can adopting the views of others (the Church) equate to being a 'faithful servant of God'? After all, if we all possess the Holy Spirit, isn't the best way to discover God's heart to look within?

The basic idea of the sermon was, in a nutshell, this: the world is fallen, and will remain a horrible place until Jesus returns. The pastor quoted verses from Isaiah and Daniel, and spoke often of the 'miracle' of prophecy in the Bible. This may sound like the extremist views of a small church in the middle of nowhere, but that is far from the truth. The service we attended was one of 6 delivered that day, each to an audience of over 5000 people. The pastor was formerly the leader of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the attendees were predominantly members of affluent, educated families.

Despite my division with organized religion, I still admire Jesus in a way I cannot express. What's funny is, I never really felt I 'knew' Jesus until I stepped away from the Christian indoctrination I was raised to adhere to. To me, the beautiful thing about Jesus was his message of love. When asked what the greatest commandments were, Jesus replied: love The Lord your God, and love your neighbor as yourself.

First off (as a Christian) I agree that faith is a personal thing. Don't be trapped into a certain denomination/theological view and mistake it for Christianity (and please, don't assume that all Christians are like the ones you are describing.) Don't be afraid to follow Christ on your own, because the beautiful thing about Christianity is that it is (supposed to be) a relationship (with Christ) rather than a religion (of men.)

Secondly, I'm afraid I tend to agree with the basic premise that the world is a horrible place, and will remain so. A quick look at history reveals that mankind is capable of incredibly beautiful and good things--but also incredibly evil and destructive things. In fact, people who have ignored man's fallen nature and instead tried to make a utopia have often done more harm than good. Here's a few people who's utopian ideals didn't work out so well:
-Rousseau (philosopher who provided a lot of ideological ammunition for the French revolution)
-Our good friends, the Nazis (they were aiming for a kind of an Aryan utopia, and for a sort of a super-human advanced race)
-Our other good friends, the Communists/Socialists (ignored the reality of human greed by attempting to create an economic system that operated on state-enforced altruism)
Please don't misunderstand me--I am not calling you a Nazi/Communist/French Revolutionary/whatever. I'm not saying people arguing for a forward advancement of the species are all mass-murderers (though I do think they are in for disappointment.) I am merely stating that human evil is a reality, and oftentimes ignoring that reality has horrific consequences. We have great potential as humans, and I do not think we should be defeatist and sit around and let the world go to pot. But it's a pretty messed up place, and thinking humans can be angels is dangerous.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
And thus you proved my point. Not trying to be egotistical but the facts are if you would have experienced such things as I did you would KNOW there was something real to this stuff. Since you do not KNOW that enough to stick with it, that shows you really didn't know at all - once you really see it like I did there is no way you can deny it - you would not be as you claim - a former Christian - there is no way you could walk away from Christianity once you experienced these things in these very real ways.

You are still making assumptions. Just because others have experiences that differ from your own does not mean these experiences are any less valid.

The truth is, I have experienced the divine in a very personal way.

I don't see any purpose of mentioning these experiences, however, as only those with similar experiences would have any idea of what I was talking about. To anyone who hasn't had the same experiences, my words would be nothing but that: words, much in the same way your claims of divine feats, whether they are true or not, are useless for the purposes of this discussion.

...

The thing is we are talking about Christianity and putting this dispensation to the test. To find out if there is anything real about it for people personally, something practical and tangible that goes beyond the hype for the purposes of " experiencing divine truth, and lessening the suffering of my fellow man" as you put it.

I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here? I consider myself a Christian because I try to be like Christ, but I think the Church has strayed far from how he lived his life. Thus, my reason for making this thread.

reply to post by ddaniel

It's obvious to me that you still love and admire Jesus. Therefore you're still a Christian, just not of the literalist, fundamentalist, conservative evangelical variety, and to have had the courage to break away from that, based on an adherence to reason, and a spirit of hope and optimism, is probably (no, certainly) more in line what the spirit of Jesus' teaching than that which you were indoctrinated into to begin with. Good for you!

Jesus in spirit is always coming, as the one who was, who is and who is to come, and the kingdom of heaven is to be realized in this life, by becoming as little children ie: to be fresh and new and authentic and to experience life enthusiastically with wonderment and awe-inspired. It is always at hand, and near in the spirit of Christ.

You've just become a new kind of Christian is all (a more authentic kind ie: more true to self), at least that's what I see.

There's no need to call yourself a "former" Christian, and walk away from the center and source of love who is the same One always and forever.

Just keep in mind what Jesus thought of the religious indoctrination and formalism of his time, and how that stance even brought about his clash with and triumph over, a false-temple corrupted by excessive religiosity and the bloodsucking greed and domination of an evil empire.. (sound familiar to anyone?)

I pray that in recognition and realization, you will come to laugh with me at the absolute absurdity of it all due to the contamination of Jesus' true message and being, by simple human ignorance, which is not dissimilar to that which he had to contend with, was crucified relative to, and triumphed over in absolute liberation!

reply to post by ddaniel
The world will remain a horrible place until WE make it better. No saviour is going to save us because we said I accept that he died for my sins so I can live a life of corruption and everything is "okay" on Monday, now get out your check book. If that is the attitude then we don't deserve saving.

The ancient Mystery Schools, by the way of which Jesus was an initiate of, were built on integrity, discrimination (questioning), piety and actually practicing what you "preach".

Until you lived these things you were not even considered.

I guess I would be what some would call a heretic because I question things.

reply to post by ddaniel


Interesting post. I come from the other side. In other words, i grew up in a secular home, atheistic really. Non practicing buddhist but might as well be atheist in our views. I struggled to see any kind of hope in the world and it was the message of Jesus Christ that provided answers. The world around my seemed to be in decay and the message of "human hope" seemed utterly tragic. I mean take a look at history.

The struggle was to shake and parse out what the TRUTH was regarding Jesus Christ and what the fabricated religious aspects of it were. Religion is a human construct. We make rules and doctrine to control the minds of the masses. Many folks can agree to that. At the same time, true followers of Jesus don't fall into this category IMHO. And in fact, many people who are devout "Christians" aren't the so called "bigoted, narrow minded, negative" people.

The bottom line that I came to grips with was that TRUTH was the TRUTH regardless of what I think it should be, or what you think it should be. Regardless of what people act or do in the name of this religion or that, there is a truth out there. I believe that this truth is found in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And is that just blind faith? No. It's not. There is enough historical evidence to back up this event with enough room for people to make up their own minds on the matter.

Take for example a guy like Bart Ehrman who has made millions selling books denouncing the Biblical account. The man believes that Jesus walked the earth. He also believes in the resurrection accounts as far as historians allow which are basically that something happened to make those people in the first century believe that Jesus rose form the dead. His rejection of Christianity is based on philosophical reasoning, not historical. He simply cannot accept that there would be a God who would become a man, die and rise again etc.

I respect your journey for truth and understand where you're coming from. But just keep in mind that your rejection of Christianity, at least as far as I can tell from your post, should not be based on what other people say who Jesus is, or how others behave in the name of Jesus or Christianity.

Just don't commit the genetic fallacy.

Originally posted by ElleLachyme
reply to post by ddaniel

 

The world will remain a horrible place until WE make it better. No saviour is going to save us because we said I accept that he died for my sins so I can live a life of corruption and everything is "okay" on Monday, now get out your check book. If that is the attitude then we don't deserve saving.

The ancient Mystery Schools, by the way of which Jesus was an initiate of, were built on integrity, discrimination (questioning), piety and actually practicing what you "preach".

Until you lived these things you were not even considered.

I guess I would be what some would call a heretic because I question things.

There is nothing wrong with questioning things. In fact, the Bible encourages it. It's people who call themselves "Christians" who don't. It was my questioning that brought me into the faith of Christianity. But I hate to use that title since it has so much baggage.

1 John 4:1 and Matthew 7:15-20 are good places to start. The Bible actually teaches to watch out for false prophets, false spirits, false teachings etc. The problem is, without a grounded foundation to measure whether or not something is true, you will always be wandering, trying different things on for size and then moving on when it falls apart.

What I've learned from Christianity is this:

Absolute love and forgiveness = absolute freedom/liberation.

Through him and his work, we are set free for the sake of freedom, to freely love as we are loved, and nothing and no one and no power or principality can stop it, and only be put to shame trying to do so.

It's an inconquerable love, without for a moment divorcing itself from reason and logic (the logos).

Whoever can access it's domain can access it's infinitely intelligent practical necessity, and God help those who call it ignorance (oh that's so funny lol).

1 John 4:1 and Matthew 7:15-20 are good places to start. The Bible actually teaches to watch out for false prophets, false spirits, false teachings etc. The problem is, without a grounded foundation to measure whether or not something is true, you will always be wandering, trying different things on for size and then moving on when it falls apart.

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun


I consider myself a student of comparative religion. I think there is inherent good in all but most have been corrupted from their original. I take bits and pieces of the good, make a discriminatory decision of what I read and feel is right.

Not moving from one to one but trying to understand what is not movable, or maybe the right term, indescribable.

I just don't believe that accepting that we are fundamentally bad is what it is all about. We are all born with that divine spark and and to say that is a defamation of that spark. It is up to us to make things right, as much as we are capable of anyway, for the good of our growing.

reply to post by ddaniel

I have a thread asking why are anti Christian Threads allowed to be offensive but no offensive threads against Judaism or Islam espescially during their religious holidays.
Yours is just another thread , that starts out reasonable albeit, then just denegrates fundamentalist Christians.

I have known fundamentalist Christian life also...and I have experienced things that have proved to me that there are unseen things all around us all.

Love is in everything and everyone , the degree depends upon our will, and heart.
Be very careful before you denegrate Christs teachings.
Understand them , do not judge them until you do, lest you turn others against him , without cause.
There are hypocrites amongst every religious gathering, but within a hypocrites heart is also love and purity.
The basic message of Christianity is through love , we can all be redeemed.
Redemption ...is now.
By acceptance.

reply to post by ElleLachyme


That's not inconsistent with the Bible...think about it...we are created in God's image...but we have fallen...

this fits reality to me. I mean look around. We all have what you call "the divine spark" but none of us are free from things like pride, greed, etc.

Also, do you believe morality is objective? Because if you don't, then when you say things like, "what I feel is right" has no real weight.