Thoughts from a former Christian

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

Your entire second paragraph needs to be addressed here. First off, your theology and your definition of God is off. Ever heard the phrase "God is good all the time"? God by definition is good. But you say, how could God be good and order the murder of a nation, wives and kids etc? Here's a link that get's into the details...

Which is why he created the king of evil, right? He created "Satan". Obviously, evil can only come from pure good.

God sees the big picture. He understands that things have to be done that don't make sense at the time for a greater purpose. Ever have a situation in your life that devastated you at the time but later came to realize that it was the best thing that could happen to you? Much of the OT narrative is along these lines...and interestingly enough, the Israelites ALWAYS failed to fulfill what God told them to do. In fact, I would have done the same. I can relate to you and the Israelites who disobeyed God because at the time, it would make no sense.

Yes, but this only makes sense if "God" is omniscient and NOT omnipotent. Otherwise, he could undo it all and reset it with the necessary parameters to avoid all chaos and suffering in a split second.

So why doesn't he? Why does he unleash these evils on the world when he demands that we do the exact opposite?

reply to post by FaceLikeTheSun

"So if you are born gay or intersexed the bible wouldn't be the truth." Straw man argument. We are all created in the image of God. God loves the gay man and the intersexed just as much as He loves you or I. The topic of how the church at large has treated the gay community is tragic...at the same time, the gay community has been just as hostile in return.

It pretty much does right from when they are born no matter what they do they are to be put to death it is in the bible but I guess you gloss over that point

"The bible sets rules some cant conform to because of who they are" Again a straw-man. The Bible does not set rules. Men set rules. God gives us what we ought to do. They are not mandates to "get into heaven" etc. And the point of something like the 10 commandments is to show that man is incapable of following such standards. I mean who really has lived a life fulfilling the 10 commandments perfectly? Only one person has done it in all of human history and that was the point.

The fact that gay people are to be put to death makes it a rule it is in the bible. You are skirting the issue either you believe in the bible or not you cant have it both ways and say the bible doesnt set rules when it does it is gods word after all.Unless it was written by man and not inspired at all and god had nothing to do with it. You cant straddle the fence, you cant pick and choose. It states in two places that gay people are to be put to death and not inherit gods kingdom in leviticus and romans.This is why they have to deny themselves to be part of christianity. This is the cognitive dissonance I am talking about and you brush it off or deny that it is even the bible to justify your belief in it since you say god loves all of us gay or not.If you go by the bible the Westboro church is right but are more vocal in an offensive way but most christians agree with them(silently). You either except the whole bible the outlandish stories in all or not. So you would believe being gay is wrong but you dont so some part of you thinks it is not inspired or is wrong. You cant misinterpret the parts in leviticus and romans.

Well what I have to say about the gay topic within the greater topic is this.
"If being gay is my biggest sin, then I am doing really well", however, like most of us, I embellish and tell stories that are true but, somehow I turn the story into having me as the central figure in it. So with that said being gay is not my only sin. However, “That no one is perfect or worthy" because of the decisions and separations, we self create, from our inner life and inner guiding voice, I do believe that we can learn to love the outer world by loving ourselves and vis-à-vis.

It is a beautiful world full of abstract things which teach us to judge or leave the judging for something greater than ourselves and instead learn to discern what is good for the personal life making it better for everyone. Lord I am sounding like Tiny Tim.

Blessings!

reply to post by AfterInfinity


God is much more interested in our holiness than our happiness, and our character than our comfort.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

God is much more interested in our holiness than our happiness, and our character than our comfort.

Maybe he should have thought of that before he initiated the model. What does it mean to be "holy", exactly? "Holy" isn't a purely Christian term, so what does it mean?

As for comfort...hahaha. That's funny. I was under the impression that Christianity was more a matter of comfort, of staying inside the box, than it was a matter of learning to step outside our comfort zone.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

God is much more interested in our holiness than our happiness, and our character than our comfort.

That's exactly why I don't believe in your god. That, and the fact that he gets angry. An omnisciescient being would never be angry. Makes no sense. Very bizarre concept actually. It would be like getting angry watching a replay of a football game that you already knew the ending.

"Damn! This is the 452 time I watched this game on TiVo and it really pisses me off we lost again."

Originally posted by ddaniel
How is belief that the Bible (or any other Holy book) is the 'perfect Word of God' anything other than idolatry?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It's not idolotry to worship the Word of God, because the Word became flesh which is Jesus the Messiah.

When you say you have to 'go within' to know the heart of God, that's nothing more than getting in contact with a familiar spirit inside you. Which if you listen to it, it will deceive you because demons are notorious liars.

Hi ddaniel

Have you ever looked at God as the ultimate entity that is discouvering who it is? That free choice as we see it is simple God allowing creation to discouver and evolve into whatever it will be...and in turn discouvering who this entity is.

Imagine being this type of entity and bringing forward a creation that does not get tainted by all that you know. Imagine the challenge you would face if you were omnipotent. I feel I could present this in a better way, however I think you will get the point. All that we experience...good and bad...exists because it is there, always/all ways has been. If this entity God is all, then it would stand to reason it remains all of the all and will not take away/ set aside, anything if the goal is total self awareness.

I try to imagine what I could do different if I was this entity...and I continue to spend my life searching. To date I think this entity nailed it.

Originally posted by netgamer7k

Originally posted by ddaniel
How is belief that the Bible (or any other Holy book) is the 'perfect Word of God' anything other than idolatry?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It's not idolotry to worship the Word of God, because the Word became flesh which is Jesus the Messiah.

When you say you have to 'go within' to know the heart of God, that's nothing more than getting in contact with a familiar spirit inside you. Which if you listen to it, it will deceive you because demons are notorious liars.

But isn't "Word" not to be taken literally, but instead mean "Spirit" or "Wave" or "Consciousness", or any other suitable word for the form of energy that drives existence?

reply to post by ddaniel


Daniel,

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. I could have written your post nearly word-for-word.

I have also grown tired of the victim mentality of many Christians. Thankfully, there are a growing number of believers who see the game for what it is: Christianity has become an intangible product sold to the masses as a means to divide and conquer… and the perpetuators of this marketing campaign have made a sizable monetary fortune on the side.

I doubt Jesus intended for his teachings to be used like this, but what can you do? We just have to work with what we’ve got, right?

There are so many things that I do not understand in the gospels; much of the core wisdom seems to be blanketed in myriad layers of theology and I have serious misgivings about those who claim to have an intimate understanding of the “true” meaning of those words.

Outside the safe and familiar bubble of Christianity, there are so many different interpretations of the scriptures that are at least as plausible as the commonly held ideas. And if you explore a little further, you find that many of the ideas presented in Christian theology are far from original. The story of Jesus is simply the latest iteration of a very old tale. Dionysus, Horus, Krishna, Heracles…

The only answer I have heard from theologians about the many Christ’s of history is that Satan planted counterfeits before the real Christ.

Yeah… Whatever helps you sleep at night, bub.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with the Christians here who have stressed that you need to have a personal encounter with Jesus to truly understand.

But actually getting in touch with Jesus in a tangible way… that seems to be lifetime struggle for many believers; never mind those who are still seeking. (Paul’s saying “I die daily,” Comes to mind.) Miracles have been cited as proof, but this kind of evidence is intensely personal and subjective.

I personally feel that these religious and spiritual experiences should be limited to those who have experienced the reality of what they believe in their hearts. It should not be proselytized. If you want more people to “see the light,” let them find it on their own terms.

Originally posted by FaceLikeTheSun

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by resoe26

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Originally posted by resoe26
I don't believe you need a church or a denomination to have a relationship with God.

No, you don't "need" a specific building or doctrine. But NEVER underestimate the Power of the Biblical definition of a "church" which is "two or more gathering in My name". Also, there is something to the Power of the spoken word, over the reading of ones that are written...
I believe the Bible references this, as well...?

You're right.
But I do you think it is possibly OK to gather in his name elsewhere?
I mean don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun times at church. But now in days, I feel singled out. Last time I went to church, the preacher stared at me while he preached. He preached on drugs and alcohol.
-Guess the tattoos and all black clothing speaks alot to bible thumpers.

It just seems to me that alot of the people at churches are fake. Frauds. (not all)

Question though...
What does it mean to be right with God in your eyes?
Just loving your fellow man? Trusting in God? Treating others as you wish to be treated?

Not wise to judge. I'm a "Bible Thumper" and have tattoos.

Let me rephrase then, I was judged that day because of my tattoos. Clearly.
I don't believe all Bible thumpers are this way. I know they aren't. I was simply writing about that one specific instance in my life. My apologies if I had offended you.

Your story is a perfect example of what can happen to the mind of the religiously soaked. In other words, people who rely on institutionalized dogma rather than a genuine study of the word of God. This pastor was no better than the religious pharisees that Jesus condemned during His walk.

I don't think it's for us to determine whether someone goes to hell or not. That's something between the individual and God. The Bible never tells us to go around saying who will and who won't go to hell...this is the fallenness of man though..."ye shall be as gods" we still believe it.

The easy immature belief of forget dogma and tradition. Excuse me, "dogma" is a Truth. God's revelation is all Truth. The Bible is only PART of God's revealed Truth. It is the written Word of God. Tradition is the oral Word -revelation- of God. There is also the magisterial teachings of the Church through 2000 years and second in the
list found in 1 Cor 12:28 is prophecy.

An "institution", Christ's Church gave the world the Bible. In 382 A.D. Pope Damasus canonized the Bible by his God given authority. The Bible didn't drop from Heaven complete.

I am sorry, the one paragraph and one man's name mentioned in it, Constantine does not cover early Church history, from 33 A.D. until the revolt in 1517. That's silly. There are libraries full, believe the complete history. "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." A former Protestant said this, now Catholic, Cardinal John Henry Newman.

Soon, God is going to show the entire world in a dramatic way, He wants everyone to believe the same. You will
have to decide yes or no. Choose God Himself in the most Holy Eucharist instead of a communion of juice
and crackers or in some cases, mere bread and wine. How blessed don't you think, God put you in this marvelous time.

reply to post by Murgatroid


Wow, AMAIZING POST!!!

I am as the OP, I believe in Yahweh, Yashua (Jesus) but KNOW religion is Satans domain.... after all he is the God of this world right now, as it says in their own bibles.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
reply to post by Murgatroid

 

Wow, AMAIZING POST!!!

I am as the OP, I believe in Yahweh, Yashua (Jesus) but KNOW religion is Satans domain.... after all he is the God of this world right now, as it says in their own bibles.

Hmmm. The OP said he wasn't Christian any longer.

We're in the New Covenant, Jesus said I come to make things new, yes, God's New Covenant.

Don't fall for a fairly new Protestant sect and it's offshoots, denominations called Messianic Judaism. It was established by a Baptist preacher who wished to convert people of Judaism to Protestantism. It's a few Old Testament words repeated and 98% Protestant heresy.

The Holy Eucharist is true, God will reveal this personally to you, me, all the world very soon. There is a vision
of Protestants rushing forward past their Catholic brothers and sisters to receive the Eucharist. Oh joy, the unity
of Christianity...finally...as God wishes.

I am a Child of God given Liberty through the Final and Ultimate Blood Sacrifice of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ the Only Begotten Son of God to proclaim the true and pure Word of God and to proclaim His Word and His Word alone. God's Word plainly states: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus." — Galatians 3:28

I would rather be judged by God's Law than the precepts of men.

The ONLY thing done away with at the cross was the sacrificing of animals which COULD NOT save us nor redeem us unto The Father thus Christ Jesus became that final and ultimate Blood Sacrifice that finally redeemed us unto The Father. All of the rest of The Law is still in place unlike man will try to teach. God's Laws, Festival Days and ALL other Ordinances are still alive and well and remain in the hearts of God's chosen people for ALL are called but FEW are chosen as The Word of God proclaims. Yes we all sin and fall short of the glory of God but now we have an advocate or lawyer if you will standing before The Father pleading our cases in our behalf.

Peace be unto you all.

Originally posted by temporalchameleon
There are so many things that I do not understand in the gospels; much of the core wisdom seems to be blanketed in myriad layers of theology and I have serious misgivings about those who claim to have an intimate understanding of the “true” meaning of those words.

It makes more sense once you have the Holy Spirit in you, guiding you.
He takes the pieces and puts them together in your mind.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with the Christians here who have stressed that you need to have a personal encounter with Jesus to truly understand.

But actually getting in touch with Jesus in a tangible way… that seems to be lifetime struggle for many believers; never mind those who are still seeking. (Paul’s saying “I die daily,” Comes to mind.)

Paul was already in touch with Jesus by the time he said that, and had been for a long time by then.
After his conversion encounter with Jesus he went off into the the arabian desert to be taught of the Holy Spirit for several years before returning to preach what he had learned, and what he taught was right in line with what the 12 apostles were teaching.

How close you want to get to Jesus, and how fast, depends a lot on how much you're willing to surrender and how quickly you're willing to do it.

Miracles have been cited as proof, but this kind of evidence is intensely personal and subjective.

It's not very subjective when someone who was paralyzed can suddenly walk, or actually raises from the dead.

Such things are not uncommon with Christianity. If you look into it you'll be surprised at how God's miracle working power through the Holy Spirit is far more prolific and amazing than you ever realized.

I personally feel that these religious and spiritual experiences should be limited to those who have experienced the reality of what they believe in their hearts. It should not be proselytized. If you want more people to “see the light,” let them find it on their own terms.

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Mark 16
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

All the Apostles but beloved John were martyred. They passed on the deposit of the faith to their successors before
they died.


~ ~ ~

. . "The Twelve Apostles are the most evident sign of Jesus' will regarding the existence and mission of his Church, the guarantee that between Christ and the Church there is no opposition: despite the sins of the people who make up the Church, they are inseparable. Therefore, a slogan that was popular some years back, 'Jesus yes, Church no,' is totally inconceivable with the intention of Christ. This individualistically chosen Jesus is an imaginary Jesus.” Pope Benedict XVI

Originally posted by Rise27

Originally posted by temporalchameleon
There are so many things that I do not understand in the gospels; much of the core wisdom seems to be blanketed in myriad layers of theology and I have serious misgivings about those who claim to have an intimate understanding of the “true” meaning of those words.

It makes more sense once you have the Holy Spirit in you, guiding you.
He takes the pieces and puts them together in your mind.

However, I wholeheartedly agree with the Christians here who have stressed that you need to have a personal encounter with Jesus to truly understand.

But actually getting in touch with Jesus in a tangible way… that seems to be lifetime struggle for many believers; never mind those who are still seeking. (Paul’s saying “I die daily,” Comes to mind.)

Paul was already in touch with Jesus by the time he said that, and had been for a long time by then.
After his conversion encounter with Jesus he went off into the the arabian desert to be taught of the Holy Spirit for several years before returning to preach what he had learned, and what he taught was right in line with what the 12 apostles were teaching.

How close you want to get to Jesus, and how fast, depends a lot on how much you're willing to surrender and how quickly you're willing to do it.

Miracles have been cited as proof, but this kind of evidence is intensely personal and subjective.

It's not very subjective when someone who was paralyzed can suddenly walk, or actually raises from the dead.

Such things are not uncommon with Christianity. If you look into it you'll be surprised at how God's miracle working power through the Holy Spirit is far more prolific and amazing than you ever realized.

I personally feel that these religious and spiritual experiences should be limited to those who have experienced the reality of what they believe in their hearts. It should not be proselytized. If you want more people to “see the light,” let them find it on their own terms.

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Mark 16
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Rise27, hello,

Please explain how God the Holy Spirit guides Protestants into a different interpretation of Scripture, a different
interpretations of Christ's teachings, so much so, the person is compelled to start their own church? One new church begun every week since Martin Luther's revolt in 1517. Something isn't right.

Just wondering...please, get ready to accept One Lord, one faith, one baptism as Ephesians 4:5 states. Remember, remember, you'll say to yourself, "I understand finally"...when the "awakening" takes place.

I actually see a remarkable consistency in how the Holy Spirit leads leaders and prophetic people in the same direction at the same time.
I often see a convergence of many Spirit led individuals teaching and preaching on similar topics in the same seasons, even though they have little or no connection to each other in the natural.
I'm surprised increasingly at how God will even deal with me directly on issues (as I become more led by, and aware of, His Spirit), or put things into my heart and mind, which I later find elders and leaders teaching about or mentioning.
I realize that I'm plugged into the same source of the Holy Spirit they are, and we're all being blown in the same direction by the same wind.

I see very clearly the evidence of God guiding His church by His Spirit dwelling in them.
And by church I mean the body of faithful working in unison as directed by the Spirit - not some artficial man created structure of government full of people who probably aren't led by the Spirit.

Originally posted by Rise27
It makes more sense once you have the Holy Spirit in you, guiding you.
He takes the pieces and puts them together in your mind.

That’s a nice thing to say, but you’ll never be taken seriously by the vast majority of Churchians once you actually start forming your own “inspired” ideas about the scriptures and what they mean… unless you can convince some nitwits that you’re a prophet/prophetess. (Looking at you, Joseph Smith and Ellen G. White.)

I’m reminded of a quote by Mark Twain:
“A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.”

How close you want to get to Jesus, and how fast, depends a lot on how much you're willing to surrender and how quickly you're willing to do it.

I’ve never met Jesus, but if he’s the kind of person who requires that I irrevocably submit to him and his will, than I want nothing to do with such a person. If you were in his position, would you enjoy leading a mass of people constantly looking to you for direction? Wouldn’t you rather those people, whom you saved, be truly free and able to think for themselves?

Matthew 5
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Mark 16
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Woah! Don’t hurl those scriptural projectiles at me! I want to hear what you have to say about this, not Jesus.

I'm just jumping in here but from what I've read so far this thread has went on many tangents. I hope I can simplify the matter some.
I grew up in the Christian frame. There never was a time when I didn't believe in Jesus so far as I can remember.
Children have the faith of children which is what Jesus said we needed." The faith of a child."
It's sad cause even Christian lie to their children when they tell them there is a sant claus. The child finds out it was a lie and it does somethig to their child like faith.
The time came when I had to find out why I believed. The Christian faith hangs or falls on one premise and one premise only. The ressurection. If Jesus of nazareth didn't raise from the dead then it is all a bunch of crap and I don't need Christianity. On the other hand, if he rose from the dead then everyone had better take a scond look at this individual. Did he or didn't he?
You can search and ponder all the evidense which basically is the writings. It all boils down to the voracity of the witnesses. The disciples were either lying or they were telling what they honestly saw and heard.
Even the critics don't deny that a man name Jesus of nazareth lived and was crucified. They don't deny that the disciples preached his message. There is too much secular evidense outside the gospels to deny that.
There are two reasons I believe the ressurection is true. One, every one of the disciples had cataclysmics changes in their character for the good after the ressurection. Two, everyone of them, while flung to the four corners of the world, separated from each other, went to their deaths proclaiming the fact that Jesus of nazareth rose from the dead. It is incomprehensible to believe that a group of liars would go to their deaths proclaiming a lie. There is not one source anywhere to be found that any one of them recanted their testimony. Plus no one has ever came up with the body. Empty tomb. No body has ever been found.
My friends, there is a reason why this solitary figure in history has had such an impact on the world. It is because Jesus was 100% man and 100% God and he came and sacrificed himself for us so that who so ever believeth can be saved. I am convinced.