I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

reply to post by Deetermined

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

We are the sheep, right? Jesus is the door that the sheep go through to enter the pasture, right? So who are the robbers and thieves? Yahweh and friends?

reply to post by windword


windword wrote:

"We now know, from examining the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Yahweh is not the only, nor the highest of the Gods. El Elyon is. Yahweh's inheritance were the people of Jacob, one of the twin sons of Isaac and Rebekah. This is why Yahweh was pitted against Esau, Jacob's brother.

Esau honored a different God, probably the same God of Melchizedek and Abraham, but not the same God of Moses."


Yes! And here I thought I was the only one who got it!

Notice in the link I provided to the Testament of Job how Job himself is "of the noble line of Esau" (not Jacob the "Heel-Catcher").

reply to post by windword

We are the sheep, right? Jesus is the door that the sheep go through to enter the pasture, right? So who are the robbers and thieves? Yahweh and friends?

Actually, I thought it was all of the fallen angels posing as "gods" who lured the Jews away from the God that led them out of Egypt.

With your previous post in mind, what do we make of the fact that the God that led the Jews out of Egypt said he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Jesus repeated this quote about God being the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and we all know that Jesus was born from this lineage.

reply to post by Aesir26


Right! And I think that it was Yahweh who played with Job's life, not Satan. Or, Satan and Yahweh are one in the same.

reply to post by Deetermined

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by pthena

 

It seems quite axiomatic to me that any deity who is an actor or character in a mythical story is automatically a minor deity. If such a minor deity claims to be the "One and Only" then he is a liar. That seems quite plain to me.

Can you explain further for me?

Yes. I had to spend a little time deconstructing my axiom, since an axiom is "self evident" by definition.

Take the Exodus story for example, since that is a foundational myth of Israelite creation as a nation, taken out of Egypt.

Some few years ago, as I was reading the book of Exodus, I injected myself into the story in a mythic joining (the basis of covenant identity for biblical retelling and recommitment ) Where, in this story, would I fit?

If I had been one of the people leaving Egypt, after seeing such amazing destruction and death visited upon Egypt, then further manifestations of death dealing power against any griping or complaining, I would have sought some way to desert from the group to escape from the extremely life threatening situation. The ever vigilant death dealer would have most likely devised some particularly hideous means of killing me "as an example" so as to frighten anyone else attempting to flee. So, no, I wouldn't have fit in as one of that group.

What if, on the other hand, I was one of the Canaanites living in the land? Some prophet gives the glad tidings "the Great god of all is coming!". With expectation, I look and wonder, "What could this coming mean?" Then it comes as a mighty and fearsome army, swords raised high, spears at the ready, with a mighty shout and charge, intent upon my destruction and taking of my land. God of all? I don't think so! No chance for peace, since the tribal god had forbidden the use of treaties with anyone living in the "devoted", ie doomed, land.

This myth character has nothing whatsoever to offer me but death and destruction. He is in no way a God of all. He is merely the tribal cult god of a tribe not mine. And even if I were of that tribe or nation, I would flee from it and merge with the surrounding people and seek a true universal God.

reply to post by Deetermined


Actually, according to Josephus and other historical sources, the Jews of Egypt were not slaves but were the Hyksos: Semitic foreign rulers of Egypt from Canaan who usurped the kingdom by infiltration from within starting with Joseph's rule as vizier.

It took everything the indigenous Egyptians had to expel the Hebrews in a 30-year defensive war .

Manetho: "they burned our cities ruthlessly, razed to the ground the temples of gods...Finally they appointed as King on of their number whose name was Salitus. He had his seat in Memphis levying tribute from Upper and Lower Egypt and always leaving garrisons behind in the most advantageous positions". (Wki) Remind anyone of the Russian Revolution?

The Hyksos stationed themselves in the city of Avaris. This is where we get the words, "avarice" and "huckster/hooked". Egypt was also called, "Misr", the source of the word "miser" and "misery".

The Hyksos identified with the god, "Set(h)", god of the desert, of the storm, of chaos and death.
Not El Elyon.

reply to post by Deetermined


This is one reason why the Dead Sea Scrolls are so important. We can clearly see where the Bible has been manipulated by Yahwehists.

The Essenes, who's main task was keeping the scriptures pure, and are credited with the Dead Sea Scrolls, excluded themselves from mainstream Hebrews and their religious constructs, believing that they were worshiping the wrong God and honoring the wrong calender.

John 8:44-45

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Yahweh was a liar and a murdered, from the start.

reply to post by windword


Well, it looks like the identity of El Elyon might be up for debate.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Deetermined


Of course it is! The existence of a God higher that Yahweh threatens the construct of the link between Christianity and Judaism.

But the teachings of Jesus are the opposite of those of Yahweh. That should be a clear red flag!

reply to post by windword


Except the link says that El Elyon was also used for Yahweh?

But ’Elyōn is in other places firmly identified with Yahweh, as in 2 Samuel 22.14: God (yhwh) thundered from heaven, and the Most High (ʿelyōn) uttered his voice.

Also Psalm 97.9: For you, God (yhwh), are Most High (ʿelyōn) over all the earth; you are raised high over all the gods.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by windword


(Deu 7:22-24)
"Yahweh your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able to put an end to them quickly, for the wild beasts would grow too numerous for you. But Yahweh your God will deliver them before you, and will throw them into great confusion until they are destroyed. He will deliver their kings into your hand so that you will make their name perish from under heaven; no man will be able to stand before you until you have destroyed them."

(Mat 5:43-44)
"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."


Yahweh:
"But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death." (Deu 22:20-21)

Christ:
"He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." (John 8:7)


To Deetermined: The word, "El" can refer to God in the singular or in the plural sense.
It has been used to describe many other deities other than, El Elyon.

reply to post by Deetermined


There is no doubt from the scripture that Deuteronomy 32:8 provides that El Elyon and Yahweh are distinctively different entities.

I can't do the research right now, but there is a lot of evidence of the cult of Yahweh having manipulated the Bible, exchanging El Elyon's name for Yahweh.

Personally, I think that they were all "ancient aliens" and not divine by any means. I think El Elyon is a corporation, not a god.

And, I believe, if anything, if Jesus is Yahweh, then his death on the cross is the judgement extolled from Psalms 82, and has more to do with him than us.

reply to post by Deetermined

To follow Aesir26's method:

The god of Israel:
Exodus 24: 9 Then Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up. 10 They saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was like a paved work of sapphire stone, like the skies for clearness. 11 He didn’t lay his hand on the nobles of the children of Israel. They saw God, and ate and drank.

The New Testament God:
John 1: 18 No one has seen God at any time. The one and only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

Originally posted by dominicus

Originally posted by mojo2012
OP have you ever played around with the idea that some areas of the bible are for showing what will not work? jesus went back on what moses taught about an eye for an eye. try using that logic on other areas, even whole stories

Yeah that's my whole point, Jesus came and basically said, "o.k. you guys know what the OT says? Well scratch all that, I'll show you an easy way towards enlightenment, just come follow me and heed these instructions."

The teachings were mystical and have to do with Personal enlightenment and personal access to God & redemption through his teachings, techniques, etc. Sadly, the same Ego based system that Jesus was fighting (Pharisees & Saducees) is the exact same systems that took over the Christian Churches.

There is still a small minority of Individuals and sections of Church's that are undergoing the mystical transformations that Jesus taught

adam and eve disobeyed so why would God have man do things that he doesn't want them to do later down the road?

So, with all of the information we have so far, where does that still leave us with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and it's relation to Jesus?

reply to post by Deetermined


23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,

24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.

25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:

26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.

27 And last of all the woman died also.

28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

33 And when the multitude heard this, they were astonished at his doctrine.


I believe Jesus is pointing to the OT God here saying This God is not the True God... HE is the God of the dead... The God of this world... The true God is the God of the living...

And the idea blew the minds of all that heard it...

reply to post by Akragon


Akragon, are you saying that Jesus is God? (I was actually going to say something earlier, but I thought everyone else might hiss at the notion.)

reply to post by Deetermined


Of course not...

How did you manage to come to that conclusion from what i posted?

reply to post by Akragon


Among Christians, Jesus has always been called the God of the living.

I know you're not a Christian, but I thought you had heard the term before.

So, who do you think the God of the living is?

Originally posted by Deetermined
So, with all of the information we have so far, where does that still leave us with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and it's relation to Jesus?

According to Origen, Iao, Adonai, and Sabaoth represented the genii of the Moon, the Sun, and the Planets.
This is why the Menorah, one of the oldest symbols of the Jewish people, is a seven-branched candelabrum, symbolizing the seven ancient planets. These genii/djinn, or fallen angels, are inferior in power and antagonistic to the Heavenly Father, Abraxas. Jesus, the Word, is of ΑΒΡΑΞΑΣ, "the Unbegotten Father", who is the progenitor of Nous, and from Nous Logos.