I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

God, Jesus, aliens or angels...the message will ever and forever remain the same.
even in philosophy or science...or religion.
I remember this unique scene from the movie Contact where it is said;
"See, in all our searching, the only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable
is each other".
I don't mind the messenger.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

Wow! Just Wow! I'm going to have to put your post in my list of permanent book marks as a perfect example of "that which can be picked up through osmosis from Western culture with zero thought involved". The Judaics must be really proud.

There is only one reason to think that monotheism is somehow superior to polytheism: to use Sikhism as an example:

It is stated that God asked Nanak to drink from the cup of Naam (Path/Essence of God) and then promoted Nanak to the highest of all status. From there on he was known as Guru Nanak so that he could teach the world that there is one God, that all humanity is one, and that religious divisions are man-made.
Sikh

.

Once people notice that somehow or other, out of a vast pantheon of tutelar deities, one tribal god, having suppressed knowledge of his polytheistic roots, is proclaimed as the "one and only", then people should question just what happened. What does this tribal god writ large propose? That some tribe of his choosing is special and uniquely qualified to know him? That all they need is unitary possession of a particular piece of real estate in order to fully manifest his glory to the World of mere mortals?

That is patently absurd. Whatever benefit that could have been derived from abstract monotheism is instantly canceled out by picking a concrete individual tribal deity as nominee as "the One".

How absurd also to claim that Christians are idolatrous for revering Jesus! Is Jesus visibly sitting on a throne in a temple receiving worship? No! He is no more visible to people today than is the "god in the pillar of fire leading the Israelites to the promised land".

reply to post by dominicus


Jesus is the OT God, he tells you this plainly here:

John 5:37-46

37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; 38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. 39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive glory from men. 42 But I know that you have not the love of God within you. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me.

The scriptures he spoke of is the Tenach and Torah (old testament books), the NT hadn't been written yet and Moses only wrote about God.

Then theres:

John 8:56-59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

So, the God who was on Mt. Sinai with Moses and showed him his back, was the one who later came as Jesus. Jesus is the OT God, it is not given to everyone to know this nor is it given to everyone to understand but by the Holy Spirit who reveals him.

Watch this video:

reply to post by dominicus

This has HUGE implications on the Old Testament.

What it has is HUGE implications on supposed Christians who don't believe what Jesus said and want to mold God into who they want him to be.

Yes, we know there were other "false gods" in the Old Testament, which is why God had the Israelites cleanse them and the people who worshiped them from the earth so not to pervert the truth and spread evil.

When you use mysticism, you're practicing divination, We know what the Bible says about that.

Here's what else the Bible says can happen when you open yourself up to man's idea of "enlightenment" through philosophy...

Colossians 2:8

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

When you use mysticism, you're opening yourself up to all spirits. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit bares witness of the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). If you're opening up yourself to a spirit that tells you that the God of the Old Testament isn't Jesus' Father, as Jesus said he was, you're not subjecting yourself to the Holy Spirit, but others spirits.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

John 5:37-46 The scriptures he spoke of is the Tenach and Torah (old testament books), the NT hadn't been written yet and Moses only wrote about God.

He's referencing Moses, as well as God, not the OT version of God.

John 8:56-59 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”[d] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.

He's referencing Abraham, saying that he knows him, because he himself has always been, always existed. For Jesus to outright tell the Jews that the OT God was a demiurge, well then he wouldn't be able to get his teachings across because they'd all want to stone him from the start.

Jesus had to reference OT scripture because that's how you speak the language of the Jews. That's how you get their attention. That's the only way they will comprehend you.

So, the God who was on Mt. Sinai with Moses and showed him his back, was the one who later came as Jesus. Jesus is the OT God, it is not given to everyone to know this nor is it given to everyone to understand but by the Holy Spirit who reveals him.

Holy Spirit showed me that God is an Infinite Beingness, Omnipresent, Transcendent, Omniscient, that this Absolute Being doesn't get Jealous, or regret creating mankind and needing to do a flood, or order any killings of any men/women/children that are versus Moses. This is more people thinking and attributing these things to God
reply to post by Deetermined

What it has is HUGE implications on supposed Christians who don't believe what Jesus said and want to mold God into who they want him to be.

I believe what Jesus said, but not what the majority break down into. I see him as a Mystic, Master, Merged w/ God, arriving to take all Sin & Karma away, and to break the old Jewish mold of trying to follow 613 laws and sacrificing innocent animals. Basically he shows up and is like, "Scratch all that, this is how it is from now on."

When you use mysticism, you're practicing divination, We know what the Bible says about that.

THat just makes you a westernized dogmatic fundie who has no clue. ALl my Mysticism came after getting Baptised in Lake Michigan while trying to fit the Mold of what a good behaving Christian should be. Then BOOM, mystical experiences, Third Eye Open, Ego Deaths, etc etc

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Exactly. Plus the Litter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. I've seen behind the veil, things that even many leaders of CHurches and doctrine have no clue about.

When you use mysticism, you're opening yourself up to all spirits. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit bares witness of the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus). If you're opening up yourself to a spirit that tells you that the God of the Old Testament isn't Jesus' Father, as Jesus said he was, you're not subjecting yourself to the Holy Spirit, but others spirits.

Everyone is open to all sorts of spirits. In my case I got the Holy Spirit and since then have been seeing all sorts of insights, including that other Religions & Paths have legitamacy as well. Jesus wasn't the only one to perform miracles and say that he and the Father are One. Yet all my experiences came from originally being a Christian. It is natural the question the atrocities in the OT
_______________________
As to the rest of the posters, I've since come to see that are various legitimate ways, techniques, paths, that allow one to experience God and Oneness with God. I have since come to learn that Jesus came to demolish the old 613 laws, fear, and animal sacrifices of the old way of Judaism. He came and simplified the message, making it possible for all folks to eventually reach Enlightenment.


He had to quote the OT, because it predicted his coming, and also because it was all the Jews knew and the only way One can reach them in communication. He flipped and changed everything so much so, that the States Quo Judaistic system wanted t stone him and eventually Crucified him. Those same Pharisees & Saduccees have now taken over the Christian churches that are in place today.

On top of that Western Christianity is watered down and most don't get it, when it's whole purpose is Ego Death and Mystical Enlightenment i.e. Oneness/Union w/ God

reply to post by dominicus


Who baptized you?

reply to post by dominicus

Jesus wasn't the only one to perform miracles and say that he and the Father are One.

Do share.

reply to post by dominicus

As to the rest of the posters, I've since come to see that are various legitimate ways, techniques, paths, that allow one to experience God and Oneness with God.

What are they?

reply to post by Deetermined

Who baptized you?

An Evangelical Preacher who spent 14 months w me on intense Bible & theological studies. Weeks after the baptism, a Holy Divine Presence came over me and entered into the top of my head, down to my feet, slaying my ego, instilling me with Third eye vision, Divine Love for all people, Foresight/Foreknowledge, Ecstatic/Rapture, etc. I literally was like a newborn, having to relearn to function in society because of the empathy, ecstacy, and ego slaying.

Jesus wasn't the only one to perform miracles and say that he and the Father are One.

Do share.

Meister Eckhart. a Christian Mystic: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love."

On top of that there are various Sufi's who claimed Oneness w/ God, (Some who even got killed for saying so), same as Nondualists, Saints in Hinduism, Taoism, and various other Mystical paths. If you Google "Theosis, Union with God, Oneness, Merge with the Absolute, Enlightenment, etc" It's all describing the same thing under the auspices of different words/labels.

I originally would not really care for any of this, except that after receiving the Holy Spirit, there was created a fire and longing in my heart for Union w/ God. So intense that I literally quit all my life's goals, pursuits, lusts, and other world activities(all of the ego) to find a way to the Union ...which is a calling of the heart.

Considering that Christianity has all of it's blueprint's on Union, very cryptic, symbolic, and scattered because the Church's were again taken over by Ego based Pharisees & Saducees in power hunger mode and would kill or imprison anyone who discussed these things, therefore I began to study what the rest of the world's philosophies and religions had to say about God and Union.

What I found was shocking!!!! The same things that Jesus was talking about, same mystical experiences that Christian Saints & Mystics were talking about, were Universalities amongst many of the world's religions and Philosophies. Not only that, but they are very precise and in depth blueprints on how the ego operates, how the body operates, tips and techniques on self mastery, Grace, access to God.

In retrospect, what Jesus taught based in the NT is watered down beginner stuff which was cryptically said to the ignorant masses. For example when he says "The Kingdom of Heaven is within" ...well the Buddhists are like scientists on going within and have thousands of manuals and blueprints on all the various levels and depths that occur when One goes within.

Buddhism really isn't a religion. It's more so a science or Philosophy on Enlightenment and going within and urges you to see for yourself if what they speak of is true. You can be a Christian and practice Buddhist precepts.

For example Jesus heals a cripple and tells him to "Take up your mat and sin no more." He's telling him don't sin anymore, implying that one can reach a state of self mastery where a person no longer commits sin. Sure it's a hard core state, but in Buddhism they show you how to reach a high level of Self mastery by explaining and giving practices where a person can directly experience that they are neither the Body nor the Ego/Mind ...the very two aspects of a person that cause them to sin.

The lusts and animalism of the Body, influences the ego/mind, which itself operates in divisions and separatist thinking cause a HUGE veil of ignorance that causes one to Sin. The real you is the Soul and you can operate from the Soul level, which gives self mastery and brings about God's grace and empowerment to a person as well as an experience of Oneness w/ an Absolute Beingness

Instead, pretty much the majority of Westernize Christianity has become a head based, 1 hour a week sermon, without all the deeper aspects like contemplation, meditation, philosophy, knowledge of self, psychology, all of which are necessary to reach Spiritual Enlightenment. That's why folks are leaving the Church's in droves and Hard-lined based scientific militant based Atheism is beginning to increase.

The whole idea of OT God being a mean, spiteful, animal sacrifice blood thirsty being, ready to spill justice on all sinners and Non-Christians, separate and somewhere out there, is still what most of Christianity has carried over from the OT, when in reality it's not like that. In reality, everyone has access to God by going within and there is a specific way to go within and one can reach Union there with God.

We're all called to Enlightenment. We all come from God, and eventually will return to that. It's the next evolutionary step for the world to be existing in Union, a perfect state devoid of the crap we see in the world (all caused by a false Ego & Body identity)

reply to post by dominicus

An Evangelical Preacher who spent 14 months w me on intense Bible & theological studies. Weeks after the baptism, a Holy Divine Presence came over me and entered into the top of my head, down to my feet, slaying my ego, instilling me with Third eye vision, Divine Love for all people, Foresight/Foreknowledge, Ecstatic/Rapture, etc. I literally was like a newborn, having to relearn to function in society because of the empathy, ecstacy, and ego slaying.

What exactly were you doing at the time this "Holy Divine Presence" came over you? Why weeks after the baptism? Was there something specifically that you were going through or doing at the moment that it happened?

reply to post by Deetermined

What exactly were you doing at the time this "Holy Divine Presence" came over you? Why weeks after the baptism? Was there something specifically that you were going through or doing at the moment that it happened?

I was seeking, knocking, asking if God was real, applying myself w/ the studies, wrestling with theological questions, with philosophical inquiry, pray, meditate, wonder, following Christ's precepts, etc.

Why weeks after? I don't know. It's not like I asked this presence, "Hey why did you come weeks after the baptism?" It was an intense permanent epiphany and ecstatic rapture in which I was destroyed in, slayed. Someone who is destroyed is no longer around to ask questions. When it happened, I was laying down ready to fall asleep and the presence came. My ego thought it was death, that I was about to die, and so fear came up, grasping and clinging came up, and then a quick split second realization that if this is physical death, then who am I to stop it if we all die one day. Well instead of physical death, it was an ego death with Mystical enlightening qualities to it that lasted years and years.

My roommates at the time when this happened, were all aware of this presence and were scared sh**less as to what this was. Eventually, they too became Christians and both of them also had an opportunity to undergo this Mystical death, but they got sooooo freaked out about when the time came, they pushed away the Spirit and never went through it. This lead me into a vast array of theological implications as to who is and isn;t saved, enlightened, ego killed, etc etc. Come to find out, most Western Church's don't know about these deeper things. I literally asked about 2-3 dozen church leaders, theologians, authors, PHds, and elders oin the Church about this and they looked dumbfounded. Blind leading the blind unfortunately.

These experiences also would give glimpses of a living Oneness. I was originally supposed to just let go and submit to it, however ego/mind re-emerged with countless intellectual questioning on what this Oneness was and if it was "Christian based." ........which is laughable now, but back then I was so programmed in separatist thinking that I was literally pushing away Ecstatic Divine revelations wondering if they are of God because I thought then, that the status quo was you just read and go to Church. No one ever talked about direct experience.

Years later I came across a Zen Koan: Just like the Thought of a rock, is not the same as a rock; So who you think you are, is not who you are.

I saw that this was logic and reason and did not belong to Zen or was not a koan. Saw that logically Christ would have agreed with this Statement. Anyway, I wrestled with this Koan for 15-20 minutes, and it resulted in me shifting into Soul mode, detached from Ego/Mind and from Body, and then I dropped into the Heart where I merged again with the Oneness for a few seconds. Another eureka epiphany!!!!! Now Zen too became applicable to Christ and the Gian Insight showed how One inherently is not the Body and Mind/Ego, and that there is an actual basis for detaching from these 2. The 2 things that cause ignorance and sin, although in the Christian path, Mystical Grace is supposed to play a huge role and show this to you.

reply to post by dominicus

He's referencing Abraham, saying that he knows him, because he himself has always been, always existed. For Jesus to outright tell the Jews that the OT God was a demiurge, well then he wouldn't be able to get his teachings across because they'd all want to stone him from the start.

Jesus never said Father was a demiurge, thats a gnostic word, which could explain why you're confused. Stop reading the gnostic trash.

Jesus, or specifically His Spirit is the OT God. Just because you misunderstand what is going on does not make him any less our creator. Jesus is the same one who excersiced judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah, that was him there talking with Abraham. He is a righteous God and good and evil are determined by him, not by us. He has very different views than we do on everything.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


First you claim Jesus is Torah made flesh... Now you say he was responsible for Sodom and Gomorrah...

Whats next?

Are you going to claim he taught killing women and children was ok?

:shk:

Originally posted by dominicus

I was seeking, knocking, asking if God was real, applying myself w/ the studies, wrestling with theological questions, with philosophical inquiry, pray, meditate, wonder, following Christ's precepts, etc.

Tell me if I'm mistaken, but you were seeking and asking if God was real AFTER you got baptized?

When it happened, I was laying down ready to fall asleep and the presence came. My ego thought it was death, that I was about to die, and so fear came up, grasping and clinging came up, and then a quick split second realization that if this is physical death, then who am I to stop it if we all die one day. Well instead of physical death, it was an ego death with Mystical enlightening qualities to it that lasted years and years.

What mystical enlightening qualities did you have that lasted years?

Dude, the death of an ego wouldn't scare the living daylights out of you and bring on fear.

My roommates at the time when this happened, were all aware of this presence and were scared sh**less as to what this was. Eventually, they too became Christians and both of them also had an opportunity to undergo this Mystical death, but they got sooooo freaked out about when the time came, they pushed away the Spirit and never went through it.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come in fear. This was NOT the Holy Spirit that you or your friends were experiencing.

The death of an ego might humble you and bring on sorrow, but never fear.

I don't think that you weren't totally grounded in the Christian faith before you started playing with fire.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

First you claim Jesus is Torah made flesh... Now you say he was responsible for Sodom and Gomorrah...

Whats next?

Are you going to claim he taught killing women and children was ok?

:shk:

I don't expect you to understand. Sodom and Gomorrah were responsible for him bringing judgement against them, the responsiblity was on their heads for proclaiming their sin openly to him and not repenting, Abraham got him to promise to spare the city if 5 righteous were found, but only Lot was found.

reply to post by Deetermined

Tell me if I'm mistaken, but you were seeking and asking if God was real AFTER you got baptized?

Its a misnomer. Prior to the indwelling, everything was faith & belief based to a certain % but never 100% sure. After the Spirit arrived, there is no other choice but living in the reality of God. The question can be reformatted in retrospect from asking if God is real to asking what is God more so.

What mystical enlightening qualities did you have that lasted years?

Since then there is permanent timelessness, only the Now remains and this Now is infinitely intertwined with God. There is detachment from the animalistic lust and needs of the body and wants and desires of the old ego. Transcendence. I experience myself as a passerby, not from this planet and not of this planet. Extreme sensitivity through empathy. Seeing auras and light orbs. Seeing the intricacies of how other people's egotism operates and able to instantly forgive and see the soul of each instead of the ego and outer shell. Divine nonjudgmental love of all. A vast array of other attributes as well.

Dude, the death of an ego wouldn't scare the living daylights out of you and bring on fear.

You know this how? The ego fears the end of itself. Everyone I know who experienced degrees of ego death went through associated degrees of fear as well.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come in fear.

The Spirit came in power, love, awesomeness, divinity, transcendence, swift like the wind yet gentle, holy, supremely, etc. I was the one who feared the Spirit needlessly in the beginning 6. The fear was the ego's unreal projection

This was NOT the Holy Spirit that you or your friends were experiencing.

My Holy Spirit experience has been legitimately solidified by discussing my experiences with a number of Eastern Orthodox monks and Abbotts, all of who have concurred that it was legit and that they too have gone through these experiences. The only ones who question my experiences are westernized dogmatic fundies who lack direct experiences of the divine realities within Christianity, so it's hard to take such folks as these serious in the deeper aspects of all of this

I don't think that you weren't totally grounded in the Christian faith before you started playing with fire.

Just your opinion. At the time of the Holy Spirit experience, my whole life revolved around Christ and Biblical studies. Like I said above, i've been quantified by members of eastern Orthodoxx as having legit experiences and they even asked me, unknowingly, how many western Christians have I sought counsel with in regards to this that have no clue about the Esoteric nature of Christianity, and it was at least 2-3 dozen Church and theology leaders, al of them with no clue

... slaying my ego... Meister Eckhart. a Christian Mystic: "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love."

So, in brief, Eckhart says that he sees with God's eye. And what is he looking at? Himself, posed with the Creator of the Universe.

No ego there, eh?

To their credit, the Eastern Orthodox acknowledge that the logical implication of "becoming (asymptotically) one with God" is only scrupulously different from being God. You can easily understand, then, why someone embarked on this path might find use for counseling. The danger of what Jung called "ego inflation" is clear and present.

The danger is mitigated in Buddhism by instructing that there is no abiding self, not yours and not God's either. BTW, that means there is no actual ego to slay. Just that much reduces the drama. Obviously, every little bit helps.

I am not taking sides in a religious controversy, just pointing out that both approaches make provision for what is a genuine problem for those who seek cosmic excellence and might think they're special when they think they've found it. Thinking you're special is nature's way of telling you that reports of your ego's death have been greatly exaggerated.

reply to post by pthena


whatever. I don't agree.

Do as you please. Just know you are practicing Roman religion, the new universal faith made by an emperor.

If not you would not be preparing for the winter solstice as the pagans did. Have your tree up?

Have plans for Easter? Are your daughters going on a Isis egg hunt so they will be lucky and get married and have a child this year?

reply to post by adjensen


adjensen wrote: "But you don't love God or Jesus -- you're badmouthing God and you're calling Jesus a liar, because Jesus very specifically said that the God of the Old Testament was his father".

No: Never once did Jesus even give us one "iota" of proof that Yahweh was the Heavenly Father of which He spoke:

(John 8) Jesus to the Jews:

38“I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
39They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham.
40“But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
41“You are doing the deeds of your father.” They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”
42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

If you look at this god/these gods, as 'administering managerial staff'...overseeing the processes of this part of the 'creation'...with 'almost human' attributes - anger, retribution, jealousy...(given that it is a ridiculous proposition to attribute any of these to God)...it makes a lot more sense...and incidentally, as you have posited, other cosmologies say as much...the difference between OT and NT god is stark but understandable...hey!...one even got demoted...with his 'minions'...but the 'company line' remains the same regardless of the 'staff'...

A99