I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

reply to post by Aesir26

(John 8) Jesus to the Jews:

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees and their scribes in those verses.

John 8:3

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

Jesus wasn't talking about Yahweh, he was talking about Satan.

John 8:44

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

When Jesus says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, he was talking about the lie that the serpent told to Adam and Eve about not facing a human death if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge.

Originally posted by Aesir26

No: Never once did Jesus even give us one "iota" of proof that Yahweh was the Heavenly Father of which He spoke:

Here's what God said in the Old Testament:

Exodus 3:6

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Here's what Jesus said in the New Testament:

Here is Matthew's account:

Matthew 22:29-32

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,

32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Here is Mark's account:

Mark 12:24-27

24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

reply to post by zedVSzardoz

whatever. I don't agree.

Do as you please.

Evidently, we are likely speaking past each other. I don't fear polytheism. I don't have any problems with the Greek gods or goddesses, except for Zeus. Zeus seems a bit arrogant to me. "Father of the gods?" I don't think so!

But prior to, and behind the gods, there is One God. I have yet to find a suitable monotheism though. Perhaps KHABZE. THE RELIGIOUS SYSTEM OF CIRCASSIANS

The religious system of Circassians is a part of the Habze – a philosophical and ethical doctrine that regulates all aspects of human life, shapes the relationship of man to man, to the surrounding world, to the Higher Mind-and it is inseparable from it. In essence, it represents monotheism with a coherent system of worshiping One God – T'ha.

According to Circassian cosmogonic texts, the World began with an initial intervention - the construction of Net (Khy). After that objects in the World formed naturally, developing by internal Laws.

T'ha (T'hashxue) is the creator of the Laws of the Universe, which represent His expression. T'ha gave man an opportunity to understand the laws, bringing him closer to God. T'ha does not interfere in everyday life, presenting man with freedom of choice. T'ha does not take any shape, He is Omnipresent, "His spirit is scattered throughout space”.

In Circassian hymns T'ha (T'hashxue) is referred to as "the One everyone asks, but who doesn’t ask back”, "the multiplier of the non-existent”, "on whom everyone places their hope, but who doesn’t place hope on anyone”, "from whom the gifts come”, "His amazing work”, "the One who permits heaven and earth to move”.

Of special note is the forbidding of constructing temples or shrines. That resonates deeply with me. I despise and abhor temples as the sheerest form of idolatry imaginable.

I have a very particular loathing for Judaism. It seems quite axiomatic to me that any deity who is an actor or character in a mythical story is automatically a minor deity. If such a minor deity claims to be the "One and Only" then he is a liar. That seems quite plain to me.

For me, the prospect of the downfall of egalitarian Christianity as a major player in Western culture, while chauvinist Judaism remains is the height of tragedy, and that seems to be the trend.

In my opinion, Christianity, by clinging to the Old Testament so strenuously, has laid the foundation for its own downfall.

reply to post by pthena

It seems quite axiomatic to me that any deity who is an actor or character in a mythical story is automatically a minor deity. If such a minor deity claims to be the "One and Only" then he is a liar. That seems quite plain to me.

Can you explain further for me?

reply to post by eight bits

So, in brief, Eckhart says that he sees with God's eye. And what is he looking at? Himself, posed with the Creator of the Universe. No ego there, eh?

Sigh ...... he's simply stating something that's inherently neutral. If somebody says 2+2=4 is that ego based is just something that's neutral

To their credit, the Eastern Orthodox acknowledge that the logical implication of "becoming (asymptotically) one with God" is only scrupulously different from being God. You can easily understand, then, why someone embarked on this path might find use for counseling. The danger of what Jung called "ego inflation" is clear and present.

Union w/ God has build in safety mechanisms that make it eventually impossible to inflate ego when it is seen that the Ego is not you, but a false illusion self reference. The counsel that's needed is to guide one into the experience.

The danger is mitigated in Buddhism by instructing that there is no abiding self, not yours and not God's either. BTW, that means there is no actual ego to slay. Just that much reduces the drama. Obviously, every little bit helps.

he way Buddhism discusses all of this, has a certain twist and logic to it, as to directly point to the state of Union. E.O. approaches an entirely different way through Grace, attention on the Heart, submission, etc. The end result may very well be the same as far as certain aspects of theosis.

just pointing out that both approaches make provision for what is a genuine problem for those who seek cosmic excellence and might think they're special when they think they've found it.

Sure the trap of Spiritual egotism exists and is found in all religions and is itself a trap. That;s the beauty of certain paths, which point out that Spiritual Pride is one of the thousands of traps. However the end result doesn't allow for any "thinking" that their special & have found 'It" since any projected thought or claim is inherently seen as a projection/Illusion/representation.

Thinking you're special is nature's way of telling you that reports of your ego's death have been greatly exaggerated.

See above. End result in Union/Enlightenment adds a permanent thought projection self inventory detector which keeps all projections & illusions at bay so there is no "special" to be found. One of the attributes of Self Mastery is keeping any projections of "Special" at bay.

On all the rest of the replies, I still have not had my mind changed in how I think about OT god being a blood thirsty and vengeful demiurge. I still feel that Jesus referencing the OT was specifically to speak the language of the Jews to get through to them. It may be possible some sections of OT reference the true One, and others reference the Lower Demiurge. Or it is possible, many of the Characters & authors of the OT simply projected their own human-ness onto God saying God told them to do so, even if it really wasn't that way.

There is also the Ancient Aliens theory on History channel that his a Demiurge/Lower gods angle on the OT as well

I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

I hear ya'. I don't think there is much of God in the Old Testament. A lot of it seems to be of human origin. A lot of it is 'borrowed' stories from other cultures and then processed to be 'Jewish' (like Adam and Eve .. Noahs Ark .. etc)

reply to post by Deetermined


Yahweh promised earthly wealth, conquest and power for the benefit of the Jews alone in exchange for tribute and blood sacrifice yet, the Heavenly Father of whom Jesus spoke, offered spiritual salvation for people all nations through faith and love.

Destroying one's enemies by the edge of the sword was subsituted with praying for one's enemies. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth was replaced with turning the other cheek.

Yahweh:
I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you.
(Gen 17:6)

Christ:
Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” (Mat 4:8-9)

Yahweh:
"But you shall remember Yahweh your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth." (Deu 8:18)
"The blessing of Yahweh brings wealth, and he adds no trouble to it." (Pro 10:22)
"Thus says Yahweh: “The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Cush, and the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours". (Isa 45:14)

Christ:
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth". (Mat 6:24)

The above demonstrates exoterically. Greek and Hebrew gematria proves things esoterically.
The numerical value for Yahweh; wealth; profit; commandment; and the Holy Ark all separately total 666.
And that is just scratching the surface...


"Woe unto you that desire the day of Yahweh! to what end is it for you? the day of Yahweh is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5.18) "The Day of the LORD is darkness, not light", totals 666 in Hebrew gematria.

"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1John 1:5)

I think i like this guy...

Where have you been Aesir26... the forum needs more people like you

Sigh .....

Pleased to meet you, dominicus' ego. Impatience is an ego function. Patronization is an ego dysfunction. Anyway, the good news is that you didn't slay the poor bugger.

. he's simply stating something that's inherently neutral. If somebody says 2+2=4 is that ego based is just something that's neutral

Yes, 2 + 2 = 4 is inherently neutral. Eckhart decscribing himself as a preoccupation of the Creator of the Universe is, at the very least, remarkable. You are hardly in a position to disagree, since you were the one who brought up Eckhart and what he said.

However the end result doesn't allow for any "thinking" that their special & have found 'It" since any projected thought or claim is inherently seen as a projection/Illusion/representation.

Hardly. Projection is an unconscious mechanism. So is ego inflation. Like when when you typed "Sigh." Poker players call it a "tell." You weren't trying to reveal yourself, you weren't aware that you were revealing yourself, but you did. Kind of like blushing... only more chatty.

I still feel that Jesus referencing the OT was specifically to speak the language of the Jews to get through to them.

By "them" you of course mean "Jews like himself." Speaking of whom, Jewish mystical traditions are altogether comparable with Christian or Buddhist approaches. Of course, they're based on what Christians call the Old Testament.

I don't offer the following link because I believe Bruce Chilton's ideas about "Rabbi Jesus" are all correct, but simply to flesh out the possibility of an Old Testament-based mysticism besides Kaballah, a sort of "proto-Kaballah" maybe, and one possible perspective of which a historical Jesus could have partaken had he been so inclined, and taught to his disciples:

g0spel0fj0hn.com...

reply to post by Aesir26


Talk about taking a handful of verses, separating them from the rest of the chapter and taking them out of context.

I'll have to get back to you on those, but clearly the verse that you posted of Amos 5:18 is easily explained with the last two verses of that same chapter.

Back to address the rest of them later.

reply to post by Deetermined


I have hundreds more, quite literally.

"For your Maker is your husband—
Yahweh Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer; he is called the God of all the earth."
(Isa 54:5)

"In whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2Cor 4:4)

reply to post by Aesir26


You do know that Satan is referred to "as the god of this world" throughout the whole Bible? Because more people choose to follow the ways of Satan than God's commandments?

Probably not, since you aren't reading the rest of the text.

Edit to add: Anytime you see "god" in lower case, it is not referring to God the Father.

reply to post by Deetermined


You mean like stoning people to death... Killing gays, witches, fortune tellers, false prophets etc etc...

Right?

reply to post by Aesir26

Yahweh: I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. (Gen 17:6)

Genesis 17:1-8

17 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

Yes, God created many nations and kingdoms from the descendants of Abraham and He promised them the land of Canaan, which he will give them during the time of the Millennium. In this case, the term "fruitful" means to multiply.

So, what was your point with this verse?

reply to post by Aesir26

Christ:

Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” (Mat 4:8-9)

Not sure what your point is here. God already told everyone that Satan was the father of lies. Just like he lied to Adam and Eve.

reply to post by Aesir26

Yahweh:

"But you shall remember Yahweh your God, for it is He who is giving you power to make wealth." (Deu 8:18)

Deuteronomy 8:12-20

12 Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein;

13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;

14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the Lord thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;

15 Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;

16 Who fed thee in the wilderness with manna, which thy fathers knew not, that he might humble thee, and that he might prove thee, to do thee good at thy latter end;

17 And thou say in thine heart, My power and the might of mine hand hath gotten me this wealth.

18 But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

19 And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the Lord thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

20 As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God.

God is proving to the Israelites that they have a habit of forgetting him when times are good, but remember him and rely on him when times are bad. Not sure why you have a problem with God wanting to bless people who want to follow his commandments though.

reply to post by Aesir26

Christ:

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth". (Mat 6:24)

God never told anyone to "serve" wealth. There is a way to be blessed and be grateful without DEVOTING oneself entirely to their wealth. This is about a matter of devotion, not whether or not money is evil. The only time money becomes evil is when someone dedicates their entire life to it, which is the point that both God and Jesus have made.

So, once again, I don't understand your point.

reply to post by Aesir26

"Woe unto you that desire the day of Yahweh! to what end is it for you? the day of Yahweh is darkness, and not light." (Amos 5.18) "The Day of the LORD is darkness, not light", totals 666 in Hebrew gematria.

"This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all." (1John 1:5)

That's right, God is light. When God asks, "what end is it for you", he's telling them that they must prefer darkness and judgement based on their behavior and for turning away from Him. Here's what else God says in...

Amos 5:12-18

12 For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate from their right.

13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it is an evil time.

14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the Lord, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.

15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the Lord God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.

16 Therefore the Lord, the God of hosts, the Lord, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skillful of lamentation to wailing.

17 And in all vineyards shall be wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the Lord.

18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light.

and...

Amos 5:26-27

26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves.

27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the Lord, whose name is The God of hosts.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Deetermined

 

You mean like stoning people to death... Killing gays, witches, fortune tellers, false prophets etc etc...

Right?

Apparently.

So through the New Testament, we see emphasised the importance of “love your neighbour”, and forgiving those who trespess against us, to a greater extent than in the Old. However, those aspects are still a part of the principles contained in the Old Testament.

The Law of Moses contained many provisions that taught and enforced a culture that would loving and conscious of others in the community.

Leviticus 23:22: When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap into the corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest: you shall leave them for the poor, and for the foreigner. I am Yahweh your God. WEB

Leviticus 25:35: If your brother has become poor, and his hand can't support him among you; then you shall uphold him. As a stranger and a sojourner he shall live with you. WEB

Leviticus 19:18: You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh. WEB

Essentially, in keeping the Old Testament law in the way that it was intended, people would express love and care for their neighbours. In many ways, the teachings of Jesus were directed at correcting the ways the people had used legalism to misuse God's Law.

"God's Change in Old and New Testaments"

www.2pi.info...

reply to post by eight bits

Pleased to meet you, dominicus' ego. Impatience is an ego function. Patronization is an ego dysfunction. Anyway, the good news is that you didn't slay the poor bugger.

The sigh is not one of impatience, but of sadness from the Ignorance and misunderstanding that rules the world. Very few people know the intricacies of the Ego and the I-Body identification which creates the illusion of separation and No-God and is the very cause of all of the world's ills.

So to talk to a fellow Christian, or fellow human being, who has no clue about these intricacies is a sadness indeed, and was never something based on patronizing.

As far as slaying my own ego, that's not something I could do because it would be the ego slaying itself. I have already seen and experienced numerous times that I am not the ego. As far as a permanent ego death where it never comes back again and one lives out of complete Theosis, well that's something I work on daily and have seen that it is possible and met others who are living saints very far along this path.

Yes, 2 + 2 = 4 is inherently neutral. Eckhart decscribing himself as a preoccupation of the Creator of the Universe is, at the very least, remarkable. You are hardly in a position to disagree, since you were the one who brought up Eckhart and what he said.

You brought up Meister Echkart as someone exuding ego in his claims of Union. I countered saying that what he claimed was inherently neutral and it was your own projection that he was speaking from ego. That's the huge problem in the world today. Someone can tell others' that ego death is real and Union w/ God is real, and soon as someone says this, everyone's quick to attack that these claims are all ego based.

Hardly. Projection is an unconscious mechanism. So is ego inflation.

Projection is both conscious and unconscious and you can only know this if you've plumbed the depths within. Going within reveals all of the unconscious and brings it to light, where it can be discarded as Not-I, allowing a deeper state of existing from a place where no projections take place and I have hundreds of books to back this.

Like when when you typed "Sigh." Poker players call it a "tell." You weren't trying to reveal yourself, you weren't aware that you were revealing yourself, but you did. Kind of like blushing... only more chatty.

The "sigh" was honest, deep, from the heart, from sadness and compassion. If I wanted to hide it, I'd never write it. Therefore you're now projecting even more assumptions, most, if not all, of which aren't true and never were. Instead, to find the true motivations of the sigh, would require you to ask me to be honest about it and to know me as a person and that those that know me personally, know me as genuine.

The "sigh" represents the fact that the only Christians who I have met who have experienced the Mystical thigs that I have, have been either monks in monasteries of the E.O. kind, self imposed hermits spending years in solitude to break through inner depths, and quite a few women who were also alone on the path because the majority of Church's don't have a clue. Add to that the fact that studying Buddhist, Hindu, & vrious philosophical & nondual texts have been a God-send in deepening the message of Jesus and the whole purpose for being a Christian ...the same texts the westerners call "Of-the devil," out of sheer ignorance, themselves being left with the watered down teachings of Jesus which leaves much to interpretation and understanding. The sigh represents witnessing a decade of madness & ignorance in religion, amongst many other things.

By "them" you of course mean "Jews like himself." Speaking of whom, Jewish mystical traditions are altogether comparable with Christian or Buddhist approaches. Of course, they're based on what Christians call the Old Testament.

"Jew like himself" literally means nothing to me. Sure it was important to other Jews, but my experiences has showed me that Jew, Gentile, German, Chinese, etc is a bunch of illusion based projections that mean nothing int he grand scheme of things. We are all Souls inhabiting Avatar like physical vehicles. The real you is not the vehicle.

If the Jews had mysticism around Jesus time, COOL!!!!. I'm all for it as long as people are undergoing Divine Theosis like transformation and Christ-Like Union. Not I but Christ in me, is a real living and breathing experience and it is the only way for us to evolve to leave behind the animalism of divisions and separatist thinking from the ego which cause the disgust in this world.

Everything else keeps in the bondage of madness, illusion, wars, hatred, and we'll remain on the same path as usual