I'm a Christian, but think the OT God is a false god

reply to post by dominicus

The "sigh" represents the fact that the only Christians who I have met who have experienced the Mystical thigs that I have, have been either monks in monasteries of the E.O. kind, self imposed hermits spending years in solitude to break through inner depths, and quite a few women who were also alone on the path because the majority of Church's don't have a clue.

Here's why (regarding the Eastern Orthodox)...

It practices what it understands to be the original ancient traditions, believing in growth without change. In non-doctrinal matters the church had occasionally shared from local Greek, Slavic and Middle Eastern traditions, among others, in turn shaping the cultural development of these nations.

en.wikipedia.org...

Depending on where you live, most Christian churches don't deal in "non-doctrinal matters".

Add to that the fact that studying Buddhist, Hindu, & vrious philosophical & nondual texts have been a God-send in deepening the message of Jesus and the whole purpose for being a Christian ...the same texts the westerners call "Of-the devil," out of sheer ignorance,

That may have worked for you, but I doubt that it works that way for most people. From one of your earlier posts, it appeared as though you may have struggled to make sense of it all at the same time.

themselves being left with the watered down teachings of Jesus which leaves much to interpretation and understanding.

So, you're still struggling with understanding the teachings of Jesus from his own words and parables?

"The Evangelical Attraction to Mysticism"

The article devotes its last section to thirteen reasons why mysticism is not compatible with true Evangelical Christianity:

It confuses the Imago Dei (the Image of God) with the Essentia Dei (Essence of God)
It undermines the need for a structured local church
It intrudes into forbidden areas of spiritual life
It creates a breed of "Christian" superbeings
It is intensely synergistic
It renders void the need for forensic justification
It denies the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ
It undermines the need for the Incarnation
It pretends that it is selfless but it is in fact an example of the ultimate in self-centeredness
It bases its assurance on extreme subjectivism
It inevitably leads to false ecumenism
It inexorably moves towards interfaithism
It is a manifestation of the original satanic lie at the beginning of human history

www.cephas-library.com...

reply to post by Deetermined

Depending on where you live, most Christian churches don't deal in "non-doctrinal matters".

The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life. Doctrines are words and explanations, none of which themselves are God.

That may have worked for you, but I doubt that it works that way for most people. From one of your earlier posts, it appeared as though you may have struggled to make sense of it all at the same time.

I only struggled to make sense of it all as a Westernized Christian. The Orthod 7ox monks put me on to all the right books, Philokalia, Eckhart, the cloud of unknowing, st.john of the cross, teresa of avila, the ladder of divine ascent...... all mystical blueprints that made complete sense. Further cross referencing these with the rest of the world's mystical traditions makes complete sense now. Only thing left is practice and penetrating the inner depths.

I now see Jesus as an enlightened Master who came to put an end to sacrificing innocent animals, trying to unsuccessfully follow 613 laws, and changing a religion which was in darkness no longer producing Enlightened saints.

So, you're still struggling with understanding the teachings of Jesus from his own words and parables?

As I grew in my mystical experiences, the parables took on mystical meanings. If thine eye is single, thy whole body shall be full of light. That's a third eye experience and this illumination happened to me at a time when Ihad no clue about a third eye. I and the Father are One is a state accessible to all. The kingdom of heaven is within you, applies to everyone. Any Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Mystic who is plunging the depths, Loving their neighbors, seeing the ego as Not-I, Letting go, etc is a follower of The Way that Jesus prescribed.

reply to post by Deetermined

"The Evangelical Attraction to Mysticism" The article devotes its last section to thirteen reasons why mysticism is not compatible with true Evangelical Christianity:

I came to learn about Christ and become a Christian through Evangelical platforms, but the later on found the Evangelical Church to be largely dead, watered down, and in a sense, a branch off a tree of apostasy. It's a Westernized branch of thought which holds to the highest esteem, the Intellect and the doctrines, instead of the heart and God himself. I'm no longer Evangelical .....I'm a Soul inside of an Avatar freed from the World and it's programming through the teachings of Christ, Buddha, Maharshi, Zen, Taosim, etc

It confuses the Imago Dei (the Image of God) with the Essentia Dei (Essence of God)

It's the Western Church which confuses the 2. The Original church, Jesus, disciples, and the Esoteric core of Eastern Orthodoxy allowed one to directly know and experience both the image & essence allowing understanding of both, whereas the West merely assumes and theorizes them intellectually.

It undermines the need for a structured local church

What Church did Jesus go to when he was around? He was a wanderer and the leaders of the Church's then (Pharisees & Saducees) wanted to stone him and kill him. Some are called to the hermit life, others to monkhood, others merely blend in to the world while personally practicing and working on their relationships with God & Christ.

It intrudes into forbidden areas of spiritual life

Says Man, not God

It creates a breed of "Christian" superbeings

All under the direction and submission of God, with all ego out of the way. We are all called to Christhood as Paul said, not I, but Christ in me. Christhood, by its very definition, will bring with it the same direct experiences and abilities for miracles the Jesus and the Disciples had. Not some watered down and hour a week regular church goer.

It is intensely synergistic

With what?

It renders void the need for forensic justification

The forensic justification ha already been supplied in the writings & blueprints of previous Saints, Monks, Hermits, Mystics, & Desert Fathers

It denies the substitutionary atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ

That's not true. If the Atonement is real and genuine for all of the sins (or some say Karma) of the world, then that stands of its own accord and weight no matter what anyone says or does.

It undermines the need for the Incarnation

Sin/Karma killer, Enlightened Master, Teacher, and a Light bearer to the darkness that was Judaism. Nothing undermined

It pretends that it is selfless but it is in fact an example of the ultimate in self-centeredness

That's the biggest joke of them all on this list. I personally know mystics, yogi's mulsims, hindus that are more Christlike than just about every Christian I've ever met. Spiritual self-centerdness is an ego trap and is not discussed in the Western Church's as one of the traps of ego, nor is ego and it's intricacies discussed either. This claim is an absolute joke

It bases its assurance on extreme subjectivism

The forensic justification ha already been supplied in the writings & blueprints of previous Saints, Monks, Hermits, Mystics, & Desert Fathers. Any subjectivism can be checked and tempered with the existing manuals and blueprints giving all experiences checks and balances.

It inevitably leads to false ecumenism

Any separations and divisions is brought about by the illusuory false ego, and therefore the only false ecumensim is the one brought about be each individuals ego

It inexorably moves towards interfaithism

That's fine by me. I've seen and read and learned things from other faiths that make Christianity look like a watered down kindergarden books on the how to's of God, knowing one's self, over coming sin, grace, and all the various aspects that have to do with an individuals personal relationship with God. On top of this, we are all Souls inherently, no matter what "faith we choose, we have all pre-existed, come from God, and will eventually return there one way or another.

It is a manifestation of the original satanic lie at the beginning of human history

Yeah Ok. Laughable. The whole "anything that's not in the Bible is of the Devil" philosophy is a laughably dead one. That means all books that discuss science, math, cooking recipes, psychology, self improvement, manuals, psychology, and the rest o the world's knowledge is of the Devil.

dominicus

You brought up Meister Echkart as someone exuding ego in his claims of Union.

Softening memory to fit one's self image is an ego function, too. Fortunately, you can just go back to page three and look at your second post on that page. My first mention of Eckhart is several posts below that, quoting from your second, both your phrase "slaying my ego" and your Eckhart quote.

So, I didn't bring up the topic of Eckhart's plainly visible and paralyzing self-absorption, rather I disagreed with what you had already said about the subject, when you had used him as your featured and quoted example.

it was your own projection that he was speaking from ego.

I didn't say or imply that he was "speaking from" his ego. I showed that his words were evidence of a functioning ego, as opposed to a "slain" one or one lost in union with another being. He is, quite literally, placing himself at the center of the Universe. He is describing the view from there.

That you would mischaracterize what someone else said in rebuttal, in order to marginalize them with the odor of projection is, of course, a fine example what is called an ego defense. So is explaining away your own stereotypical expression of impatience (that Sigh) as some heavy hearted sadness for how inferior other people's understanding is, compared with your own.

But fair is fair. You don't see ego inflation in Eckhart, so I cannot complain that you don't see it in yourself either. You have, however, made ego in- and deflation part of the topic of the thread. That would be a thread whose title's very first word is "I."

It is also worth saying again that the Eastern Orthodox conception of theosis insists that the human partner remains eternally unannihilated. Although the Orthodox have a distinctive anthropology (that is, a religious account of human nature, not the scholarly field of the same name), I think that the Orthodox account of individuality within theosis can be squared with other accounts of balanced spiritual development, like Jung's individuation.

We have also already discussed that for whatever reason, your sampling of Christian thought has been unrepresntative. Even among the Protestant churches which have broken with apostolic succession, it is easy to find churches which teach both sexes the means to get on a path which leads to theosis. You might want to look at some of the recent work of Stanford's Tanya Marie Luhrmann in this regard, focusing on the "Vineyard" movement.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

"Jew like himself" literally means nothing to me.

That's OK. What matters is that it meant a great deal to him.

reply to post by dominicus

That's not true. If the Atonement is real and genuine for all of the sins (or some say Karma) of the world, then that stands of its own accord and weight no matter what anyone says or does.

What do you mean by "if"?

If you look at this as an "if" statement, then you can't be a true believer of Christ.

You've mixed so many religions together that you just "watered down" (as you would say) the main teaching of why we're even able to abide with God in the first place in the kingdom of God after this life is over.

I'm only going to leave you with these verses...

Colossians 2:16-19

In view of these tremendous facts, don’t let anyone worry you by criticising what you eat or drink, or what holy days you ought to observe, or bothering you over new moons or sabbaths.

All these things have at most only a symbolical value: the solid fact is Christ.

Nor let any man cheat you of your joy in Christ by persuading you to make yourselves “humble” and fall down and worship angels. Such a man, inflated by an unspiritual imagination, is pushing his way into matters he knows nothing about, and in his cleverness forgetting his head.

It is from the head alone that the body, by natural channels, is nourished and built up and grows according to God’s laws of growth.

Deuteronomy 29:29

29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

reply to post by Deetermined


Jesus Christ is YHWH embodied,

Jesus said salvation is of the Jews to the Samaritan woman who claimed her fathers worshiped "god",

He told her she knew not what she worshiped,

Are you truly familiar with the Scriptures?

Don't condemn your Master because you lack understanding,

Don't let mans false interpretations and unjust accusations sway you from the Truth,

God bless

So, I didn't bring up the topic of Eckhart's plainly visible and paralyzing self-absorption, rather I disagreed with what you had already said about the subject, when you had used him as your featured and quoted example.

reply to post by eight bits

ITested his premise/claim, & in glimpses found that it's true, legit, genuine, that he really made this claim from the soul/heart level & not from ego. On your end, how could you possibly know he speaks from ego unless you knew him personally & had a deeper context to it all to really make the "ego" claim. Be careful cause there is a camp of thought which says everything is ego based no matter who says what, Jesus, Buddhas included.

I didn't say or imply that he was "speaking from" his ego. I showed that his words were evidence of a functioning ego, as opposed to a "slain" one or one lost in union with another being. He is, quite literally, placing himself at the center of the Universe. He is describing the view from there.

Very well. It may have been we got lost in translation somewhere in our replies. I understand now where you are coming from. But also would like to say that I have had glimpses of Union where words and thoughts (not of my own ego) came and went .....really deep stuff, which makes me wonder that one can perhaps speak from a pre-ego soulful God based level.

(that Sigh) as some heavy hearted sadness for how inferior other people's understanding is, compared with your own.

It's not "inferior understanding", but lack of understanding, of which it doesn't make me any more special than anyone else. The feeling/thought of being superior or special is an enemy to the soul on the path of theosis and I've known about this trap for the last 3-4 years.

You might want to look at some of the recent work of Stanford's Tanya Marie Luhrmann in this regard, focusing on the "Vineyard" movement.

I am aware that there are in the corners of Western Christianity, whispers of instructions to theosis. But as a generalized whole, Western Christianity, as part of the global schism in thought between East & West in general) is really about head/intellect vs. heart/theosis. The E.O. branches have always maintained a balance of both, while the majority of Western thought went with the Head/Intellect/Ego. All of America is an experiment in Ego/HEad base living and look at where it's taking us, Churchs' included.

However, it's the very emphasis on Theosis that is the only way to save Christianity and a substantial evolution in living life.

reply to post by Deetermined

 

What do you mean by "if"? If you look at this as an "if" statement, then you can't be a true believer of Christ.

I'm saying "If" on the basis of all the religions and people that believe Jesus simply got killed for speaking truth, but not to cover Sin. I personally believe that Sin is a conglomerate of Ego based mistakes resulting in (karma) which is a universally excepted function (you reap what you sow in the Bible). Karma doesn't belong to any religion. It's a universal law. So I said "If" for the sake of keeping all people in mind and what they also believe.

On the other hand, some religions never talk about Sin, but discuss ridding One's self of Ignorance and going forward into Theosis. To add to that, I remeber myself having pre-existed prior to a body and being asked to be born on Earth, to which I replied, "What is "Born" and what is "Earth" "? Either way, was I a "sinner" in my pre-existent state when I was just a soul? I've clearly seen that Sin is a result of an Illusion based Ego mixed with the animalism of the body, 2 things that I never was in my pre-existent state. So sure according to Christian doctrine, I too am a sinner while here on earth, but the real pre-existent me is in a sense, an observer of all of this. Big theological issues here considering pre-existence

You've mixed so many religions together that you just "watered down" (as you would say) the main teaching of why we're even able to abide with God in the first place in the kingdom of God after this life is over.

IMixed them because most of it is Perenial Wisdom that does not belong to any religions/divisions and I know Jesus would approve of alot of it. Paul saying "I die to the Self Daily",Jesus saying "Pick up your cross and come follow me" is all ego death based, of which Hindu, Nondual, Greek, and Buddhist Philosophies have hundreds of books on the science of Ego/self. It's universal.

I'm only going to leave you with these verses... Colossians 2:16-19

I'll leave w/ one too then:
1 John 2:27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true.

reply to post by godlover25


I'm not sure I understood a word you just said.

What is your definition of truth?

OP have you ever played around with the idea that some areas of the bible are for showing what will not work? jesus went back on what moses taught about an eye for an eye. try using that logic on other areas, even whole stories

reply to post by dominicus

I Mixed them because most of it is Perenial Wisdom that does not belong to any religions/divisions and I know Jesus would approve of alot of it. Paul saying "I die to the Self Daily",Jesus saying "Pick up your cross and come follow me" is all ego death based, of which Hindu, Nondual, Greek, and Buddhist Philosophies have hundreds of books on the science of Ego/self. It's universal.

You didn't even understand one word I said when you wrote this reply.

It's not just about the death of the ego and picking up your cross. It's understanding why Jesus came here to die in the first place. Do you even know why Christ died on the cross to forgive us of our sins? Do you even know why Christ said he was the way, the truth and the life?

Originally posted by mojo2012
OP have you ever played around with the idea that some areas of the bible are for showing what will not work? jesus went back on what moses taught about an eye for an eye. try using that logic on other areas, even whole stories

Yeah that's my whole point, Jesus came and basically said, "o.k. you guys know what the OT says? Well scratch all that, I'll show you an easy way towards enlightenment, just come follow me and heed these instructions."

The teachings were mystical and have to do with Personal enlightenment and personal access to God & redemption through his teachings, techniques, etc. Sadly, the same Ego based system that Jesus was fighting (Pharisees & Saducees) is the exact same systems that took over the Christian Churches.

There is still a small minority of Individuals and sections of Church's that are undergoing the mystical transformations that Jesus taught

reply to post by Deetermined

You didn't even understand one word I said when you wrote this reply. It's not just about the death of the ego and picking up your cross. It's understanding why Jesus came here to die in the first place. Do you even know why Christ died on the cross to forgive us of our sins? Do you even know why Christ said he was the way, the truth and the life?

Yes I did understand. I do believe that Jesus died for our sins and that he is "A way" back to God. It goes alot deeper and broader than that when you consider the teachings of the rest of the world's philosophies and religions.

For example, One time I was in meditation after having the Holy Spirit, and it came to me that "Jesus was the first Soul of all Souls". That has it's own implications as well.

Regardless back to the Original point. I still think Jesus came to simplify it all and demolish the darkness and dead ways in the OT amongst many other things. My only change of thought in these exchanges is that perhaps the OT god atrocities could just be the various authors' super imposing human ideas/thoughts into God, when it never really was like that. Considering Genesis might have it's source in the Epic of Gilgamesh and studying the rest of the available Origin scriptures the world over, we get alot of mention of various Demiurge/Lower god based beings. That's just keeping it in perspective

reply to post by dominicus

I'll leave w/ one too then: 1 John 2:27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true.

You do understand that in order to receive the Holy Spirit, you have to have 100% faith in Jesus and what he stood for? You've already admitted that at the time of your baptism, you weren't grounded 100% in the Christian faith.

I'm not convinced that the spirit that you've experienced is the Holy Spirit.

Part of the problems with the Jews before the time of Jesus was all of their mystical practices. They were being deceived by fallen angels ("gods") even after they experienced the true God bringing them out of Egypt.

Don't think that you're not capable of being deceived too. Mixing God's words with the words of man through philosophy is causing you to stumble and be deceived. This is why the Bible says to use scripture in order to evoke the Holy Spirit, not mysticism.

reply to post by dominicus

The teachings were mystical and have to do with Personal enlightenment and personal access to God & redemption through his teachings, techniques, etc. Sadly, the same Ego based system that Jesus was fighting (Pharisees & Saducees) is the exact same systems that took over the Christian Churches.

Think about what you just said here. What were Jesus' "techniques" that he taught? I'm pretty sure they didn't include practicing mysticism.

reply to post by dominicus

Yes I did understand. I do believe that Jesus died for our sins and that he is "A way" back to God.

Jesus said that he was THE way to God. That anyone who tried to get to God some other way was a thief and a robber.

We now know, from examining the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Yahweh is not the only, nor the highest of the Gods. El Elyon is. Yahweh's inheritance were the people of Jacob, one of the twin sons of Isaac and Rebekah. This is why Yahweh was pitted against Esau, Jacob's brother.

Esau honored a different God, probably the same God of Melchizedek and Abraham, but not the same God of Moses.

Deuteronomy 32:8, From the Dead Sea Scrolls

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he separated the sons of men,
he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
For Yahweh's portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance."

Read further down in Chapter 32 and see how Yahweh is disappointed with his inheritance and wants to destroy it, but is afraid tht his enemies will take the act of Yahweh's peoples' destruction as a victory of their own making.

26 I said, I would scatter them into corners,
I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:

27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy,
lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely,
and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.

In Psalms 82, we again meet El Elyon, and he is not happy with his sons. They have not lived up to their mandate, and are sentence to death.

1. Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the council of the gods; he judges among the gods.
2. How long will you judge unjustly, and show preference to the wicked? Selah.
3. Judge the poor and the orphans; do righteousness to the afflicted and dispossessed.
4. Deliver the poor and oppressed; save them from the hand of the evil.
5. They do not know and they have no understanding; they walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6. I said, “You are gods, and children of Elyon, every one of you.”
7. But you will die like mortals, and fall like one of the princes.

Perhaps Jesus is the reincarnation of one or all these dead Gods. Or maybe he's there replacement.

Who did Jesus meet in the dessert? Yahweh?

John 10:1-8

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

reply to post by Deetermined

Think about what you just said here. What were Jesus' "techniques" that he taught? I'm pretty sure they didn't include practicing mysticism.

The kingdom of heaven is within you, If thine Eye is single, thy whole body shall be full of light, the beatitudes (Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God), Heart purification, Take up your cross and come follow me, deny yourself, Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself, be born of water and of the Spirit. I followed these to a T, the best that I could with all of my being and what resulted was Mystical experiences, realities, ego deaths, third eye openings, illuminations, glimpses of Oneness, Transcendence, Timelessness etc.

Anyone who follows these teachings will eventually be thrust into the Mystical realities of God.

Jesus said that he was THE way to God. That anyone who tried to get to God some other way was a thief and a robber.

In context he's speaking to the Jews, who were following a fruitless path of 613 laws and animal sacrifice living in fear. He's telling them specifically, your ways are dead, and that he Is the Way, not the dead judaism.

On top of that he set an example. To follow in his footsteps. I would go so far to say that any monk of any religion who is following the precepts of Christ, is following The Way.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Aesir26

 

You do know that Satan is referred to "as the god of this world" throughout the whole Bible? Because more people choose to follow the ways of Satan than God's commandments?

Probably not, since you aren't reading the rest of the text.
Edit to add: Anytime you see "god" in lower case, it is not referring to God the Father.

edit on 3-12-2012 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)

Satan is not referred to as "the god of this world" throughout the WHOLE Bible (only by early Christians in the NT when they were alluding to "Yahweh").

Jews believe Satan to be working with Yahweh as his chief Prosecutor.

Zech 3:1
Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of Yahweh, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.

Consider the following from the OT:

Yahweh:
And again the anger of Yahweh was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel (2Sam 24:1)

Then Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel. (1Chr 21:1)

The character, "Satan", does appear in the Book of Job, one might argue. Again, though, in the capacity of Yahweh's subordinate. The Book of Job that we are most familiar with in the OT is a corruption of the original:

gospel.thruhere.net...