Is the Christian Trinity a Conspiracy ?

I am a Catholic revert btw I fell for peoples senseless blasphemy's for many years because it went along will with my rebellious spirit. When you bother to read the Catechism you will know the truth about Jesus, and you will know it is the truth.

You keep saying they are not 3 God's. We Catholics do not believe that. If you want a full explanation and proof that paganism has not shaped any part of the Church, go read the Catechism. You are basically saying in these posts "I believe what Catholics believe : the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and not 3 God's". Wow great we believe that too. The only difference is we know you can distinguish between them (Jesus did mention that one....ALOT).

And to all those who keep talking Constantine STOP WATCHING H2 it is not close to credible. Try researching Constantine he was a good man who helped preserve the same Scripture for you that you are so fond of quoting.

You keep making the same invalid points with completely flawed logic. If you go back over the posts, you will see it for yourself.

You even admit that without the Church, you would not have the Scripture. Then you proceed to call the Church a donkey and insult God by saying He is a liar and not with His Church (who has been there from the beginning and preserved the same Scripture you read from).

You just don't want the truth, I guess it is not controversial enough for you in this case.


btw - The narrow gate is about rejecting sin and following Jesus. Nothing to do with denomination in that passage but nice try once again you did not answer the question and proceeded to bait. Next thing you will tell me is that that passage is "questionable".

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one God, distinguishable aspects of the same entity. Go read what Jesus teaches about this and it will be made *painfully* obvious to you. Of course, all those passages are open to your individual interpretation and also probably *questionable* because you said so.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
I am a Catholic revert btw

I fell for peoples senseless blasphemy's for many years because it went along will with my rebellious spirit.

It appears that you still have your rebellious spirit.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

When you bother to read the Catechism you will know the truth about Jesus, and you will know it is the truth.

I know the truth about Jesus from the Bible.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

You even admit that without the Church, you would not have the Scripture.

I did not. Without the Catholic Church, the true Church would have been able to keep the Scriptures due to a lack of persecution from the Catholic Church.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Then you proceed to call the Church a donkey

I did not call the Catholic Church a donkey. I was saying if God can use a donkey, He can use Catholics too.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

and insult God by saying He is a liar and not with His Church (who has been there from the beginning and preserved the same Scripture you read from).

I did not.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

You just don't want the truth, I guess it is not controversial enough for you in this case.

I have the truth. Do you want it?

Originally posted by NarrowGate

btw - The narrow gate is about rejecting sin and following Jesus. Nothing to do with denomination in that passage but nice try once again you did not answer the question and proceeded to bait. Next thing you will tell me is that that passage is "questionable".

I never brought up denominations, that was you. Trinitarians love their denominations. You falsely give Biblical teaching the label of "blasphemy". Calling good, evil. Your "NarrowGate" is actually the "WideGate".

reply to post by NarrowGate


If you want to defend the Trinity fine, you want to defend the Catholic church it's history and the trinity, that's not winnable for you, sorry.

My family comes from a long linage of catholic priests and nuns going back a couple centuries, my ancestors got out, when a priest burnt a Catholic bible in a fire right in front of them in their own home. Until that moment they had endured the sexual escapades of abusive priests protected by the church.....but this was the end.

That was their epiphany....they left Catholicism and all there family behind and I am so grateful they were smart enough to see the apostasy and get out. The stories they would tell, horrific.

Remember these are the original sponsors of this ideology of the Trinity, as I said before the reformers that's broke away form the chruch should have been able to fix this too, but a millennium of tradition is hard to break.

As for any specific religious group, that doesn't believe in the Trinity, that's not the discussion, I posted many different groups, I find it very curious you fixated on just one.

It is Unitarianism Vs Trinity.

EDIT: And then I read the post below confirming my own statements by a current Catholic.

reply to post by NarrowGate


NarrowGate

I am a Roman Catholic, just like you, but me and you are very different.

First off all I'm ashamed to be part of the Roman Catholic Church, which is fully against Jesus and his teachings and has nothing to do with PETER, WHO THEY CRUCIFIED.

Roman Catholic Church also is a criminal organisation, its worse then cancer, IT COMES TO A COUNTRY AS A SAVIOUR, THEN IT KILLS YOU SLOWLY. You know how much MONEY my country gives to the VATICAN, ITS SO SICK.

So many poor people in this world, and the Vatican, like the politicians steal everything from them. How many Priest like little children and the POPE protects them-SICK. And please don't tell me how great was CONSTANTINE, HOW MANY PEOPLE DID HE KILL, and his fake sign CHI RHO, SKULL AND BONES- DEATH, symbol of skull and bones 322. Constantine used the Christians to kill in there wars,reason they recognised JESUS and then Changed everything that is TRUE. But it didn't start from Constantine but the SPY PAUL, THE FAKE DISCIPLE

Everyone should be Baptised again in the true name of JESUS- Yeshua or Yehoshua, they know JESUS REAL NAME WHICH THEY HID FROM THE WORLD. Its a joke being Christened, not BAPTISED which is a big difference in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and to make it even worse to be christened as a baby is so agaisnt Yeshua teachings, you have to be BAPTISED WHEN YOU YOURSELF CAN SAY YES OR NO.

MATHEW 18.3-And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

How can you Christen a child and then state the child has original sin? a CHILD IN THE EYES OF GOD is an ANGEL, BAPTISE MEANS TO SUBMERGE, EVEN THIS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH RUINED THIS. Now CATHOLICS like me just have abit of water sprayed on your forehead when we were babies BABIES.

And reason for all this is that the HOLY ROMAN CHURCH, THE ROMAN EMPIRE RULED THE WORLD, and they are the ones with the CROOK PRIEST that wrote the REVELATION against the Yeshua as the MESSIAH, 666 IS JESUS, MARK OF THE BEAST IS BEING BAPTISED IN YESHUA NAME.

The Catholic church nevers mentions MESSIAH, JUST CHRIST, and now Christ has become a name, like Christen, Christina, Chris. What a big JOKE TO YESHUA.

Mathew 16.12- Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Worse part is how we CATHOLICS SACRIFCE JESUS AS AN ANIMAL EVERY MASS, LIKE THE HEBREWS USED TO FOR THEIR SIN OFFERINGS TO GOD, and also Passover you have to Sacrivice a LAMB TO GOD. this has nothing to do with JESUS.

John 6-26 -THE BREAD OF LIFE. -This has nothing to do with BREAD that I used to take in a Catholic mass.This bread is the teaching of Yeshua,as the MESSIAH AND ACCEPTING HIM and his teachings. Nothing to do with the SACRFICE THAT OUR CATHOLIC CHURCH PRACTICES.

I feel sorry for all the Jews who are still waiting for the MESSIAH, one day they will know the truth that Yeshua is the LONG AWAITED MESSIAH THEY HAVE BEEN WATING FOR.

Just imagine how many Hebrew-Jewish followers of were killed in 70ad, just like the followers were killed in Rome 64ad,

Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.

Another apparent result of the demise of Judaism and their historic Temple was a growing rift between what was left of the Jewish faith, including the early Jewish Christians, and the now dominant Gentile community of believers.

After 70 AD, THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF PAUL WAS BEING PUSHED ON ALL FRONTS. They killed nearly everyone that followed JESUS TRUE TEACHINGS.

The non-Jewish Christians must have found themselves in a dangerous and difficult position as a result of the Jewish revolt against Rome. First, there is the obvious problem of their suddenly being cut off from the Mother Church of Jerusalem by its extinction after AD 70.

The possible causes of death of each of the Twelve Apostles:

Andrew: Martyrdom by crucifixion (bound, not nailed, to a cross).1
Bartholomew (Often identified with Nathaniel in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being either 1. Beheaded, or 2. Flayed alive and crucified, head downward.1
James the Greater: Martyrdom by being beheaded1 or stabbed2 with a sword.
James the Lesser: Martyrdom by being thrown from a pinnacle of the Temple at Jerusalem , then stoned and beaten with clubs.2
John: Died of old age.1
Jude (Often identified with Thaddeus in the New Testament): Martyrdom by being beaten to death with a club.2
Judas: Suicide.1
Matthew: Martyrdom by being burned, stoned, or beheaded.1
Peter: Martyrdom by crucifixion at Rome with his head downwards.1
Philip: Martyrdom.2
Simon: Martyrdom by crucifixion.1 or being sawn in half.2
Thomas: Martyrdom by being stabbed with a spear.2

Originally posted by dave13
reply to post by NarrowGate

 

The non-Jewish Christians must have found themselves in a dangerous and difficult position as a result of the Jewish revolt against Rome. First, there is the obvious problem of their suddenly being cut off from the Mother Church of Jerusalem by its extinction after AD 70.

Gentile Christians do not really exist. It is an idea created by the Catholic Church.

When Gentiles convert to Christianity, they convert to a Jewish religion with the Jewish Messieh, Jewish apostles, and Jewish prophets.

"Controlling people through organized religion" ranked at #9.

I'd be more concerned about that.

And yes, any religion is a conspiracy to make money out of peoples' misguided faith.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


The entire story is pagan. It doesn't matter what pieces of Christianity you pick and choose to believe, to some extent, you are engaging in Sumerian worship. From the virgin birth to being the son of "God" to the three days of death to the resurrection and all of the accepted practices demonstrated in between, are all pagan. There's a reason they survived - there's a truth to it. But that truth isn't the truth being taught.

Out of all of the blatant falsities, arrogant prideful assertions, and just general lack of knowledge I have seen in my life, I have never seen this much.

You direct all of your research against the Church. How can you do this properly without knowing what the Church teaches? I see numerous errors in your beliefs in what the Church teaches (more now than ever), and I am not going to bother pointing them out. Take the emotion out of it and re-read everything that has been posted.

If you want to find a conspiracy in the Catholic Church, you should read what the Catholic Church teaches. The Catechism is a necessary read if you want to convince a Catholic they are worshiping the devil. The reasons for this are obvious.


I am certain that no true believer will be lead astray by this, so I will not bother to refute your baseless and absurd claims. You have basically done that yourselves.

Let me leave you with this - would God include the damnation of the majority of those who believe in him in his plans for our Salvation? Jesus is pronounced Jesus no matter what language the Name is spelled in.
Would he allow Satan to trick most of His children who genuinely believe in Him throughout most of Human history thus far when it comes to the only thing that matters?


Yes there is conspiracy in the Catholic Church. Yes Satan worshipers have infiltrated God's Church and even become bishops (and Cardinals, according to the Vatican's top exorcist). Yes Satan is still trying to lead people away from His Church - furthermore his entire Word. We are still not buying it. Thus far the Pope has never been compromised (this is because God is actually in control of all of this, and we are just being chastised for obvious reasons). You can make any world leader "look" evil, as has been proven, because you do not have first-hand knowledge.

Like I said, if you are looking for Catholic conspiracy there is a lot of wicked stuff. You are looking in the wrong place, and both you and I have demonstrated that well enough. Out of everything you have read that is anti-Catholic, you have never read what Catholic's believe. If I am looking for an unbiased opinion you are not a good place to look.

The Catholic Church preserved the Scripture that you are going to read out of for the rest of your life. Even the versions that have been changed to "bring the truth back that the devil-worshiping Catholics hid from you" Go ahead and say it is not God's Church if you want, but I would recommend losing the bias and at least bothering to read the Catechism.

reply to post by NarrowGate

You direct all of your research against the Church. How can you do this properly without knowing what the Church teaches. I see numerous errors in your beliefs in what the Church teaches (more now than every), and I am not going to bother pointing them out. Take the emotion out of it and reread everything that has been posted.

Is it so terrible to contemplate pagan worship? Thanking a tree because it gave you an apple? If "God" is truly everywhere, then you are essentially thanking him as well, because he is in all of nature. And when you thank nature for what it has given you, you eventually come to realize that you want to protect nature. You come to respect the world that sustains you.

We could use some of that, eh?

All of my speculations can be traced back to popular Christian beliefs. I am told this "God" is omniscient. I've been told he's omnipotent. I'm told he's omnipresent. I'm told he's benevolent, merciful, and loving. This is what I'm told. I look over his track record, how he reacts to opposition, his hopes for his creations, and what he's prepared to do if things don't go his way. I've looked at it. I've heard what it's all about. And then I've analyzed it all, played with it, plugged this into that. And what I've pulled out of it is nothing short of a Gordian knot of logical fallacies and self-delusion.

I generally attempt to keep my emotional responses to a minimum. Emotions only confuse answers. You get caught between what you want to believe and what's actually in front of you. And eventually, you choose the answer that helps you sleep at night and gives you the courage to get up in the morning.

No one cares about truth anymore. In a world built on lies and deception, all that matters is a lie that serves us.

Let me leave you with this - would God include the damnation of the majority of those who believe in him in his plans for our Salvation? Jesus is pronounced Jesus no matter what language the Name is spelled in.
Would he allow Satan to trick most of His children who genuinely believe in Him throughout most of Human history thus far?

Actually, I believe it's originally pronounced Yeshua. Smooth stumble there.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?" - Epicurus

Epicurus makes a pretty sound argument. I don't think anything else needs to be added to that.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You have not read everything that has been posted by me in this thread, let alone any of the Catechism.


When you start (finish?) reading the Catechism, you will understand that God's mercy and love are both infinite. In order to be damned you must consciously reject that mercy and love. You will also understand why evil is permitted. READ THE PARABLE OF THE WHEAT AND THE WEEDS AT THE VERY LEAST

Stop bashing Catholics without even knowing what we believe.

That one guy is not a true Catholic btw. Like I said do not listen to a "catholic" who is not loyal to the Pope.

edit: you seem like someone who really wants the Truth but has not seen it. Please look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which is the most complete interpretation of Scripture and Sacred Tradition in the Christian world, not to mention being the original Church of Jesus).

Everything will click for you, trust me. Free your mind.

Even most Catholics these days are not really Catholic. We are living in a world similar to the Matrix. Extreme points of view keep you locked in that Matrix because as you know - Satan is the father of all lies and most extreme points of view are half-lies.


you are right about one thing, this world is full of deception. It is Satans world, and the Catholic Church teaches that we are to break free of Satans chains through Christ. Of course, there are Catholics who think Satan is symbolic and the Gospel is a myth so what does that tell you about Satan's progress?


You do not know how the name is pronounced because you do not speak Hebrew. You can trust God's Church or random internet guy your choice.

reply to post by NarrowGate

You do not know how the name is pronounced because you do not speak Hebrew. You can trust God's Church or random internet guy your choice.

Yeshua IS Hebrew. Yeah, I think I'm done here. Even the Jesus Facepalm doesn't cover this.

Ahh fine you got me. I had to look at the Church's teaching for guidance. That is the Hebrew pronunciation.

Jesus is the Latin translation for Yeshua, Mary is also actually Maryim *sp?* in Hebrew. Since the Roman Catholics use Latin, we use the Latin translation for Yeshua which is Jesus. That is also, apparently, the English translation but I would need to verify that.

God is also originally called YHWH (don't pretend to know if Yahweh is the correct spelling or pronunciation - NO ONE knows that it is just a logical conclusion to draw from the text).

That is what the Church teaches, that Yeshua is indeed the original Hebrew name of Jesus. The reason for my confusion is I wrongly thought we kept the original pronunciation and changed the spelling to fit the language.

Originally posted by NarrowGate
Ahh fine you got me. I had to look at the Church's teaching for guidance. That is the Hebrew pronunciation.

Jesus is the Latin translation for Yeshua, Mary is also actually Maryim *sp?* in Hebrew. Since the Roman Catholics use Latin, we use the Latin translation for Yeshua which is Jesus. That is also, apparently, the English translation but I would need to verify that.

God is also originally called YHWH (don't pretend to know if Yahweh is the correct spelling or pronunciation - NO ONE knows that it is just a logical conclusion to draw from the text).

That is what the Church teaches, that Yeshua is indeed the original Hebrew name of Jesus. The reason for my confusion is I wrongly thought we kept the original pronunciation and changed the spelling to fit the language.

edit on 7-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)

Actually, Yeshua which is correctly spelt as Yeshas, is pronounced Jesus. The "y" has a "j" sound when followed by the "e".

"YHWH" was never associated with the Judaism of the Bible. It's introduction into Judaism was the pagan customs of Babylon.

"Yahweh" is a false guess name based on "YHWH" and means moon god of perversion in Hebrew.

"Jehovah" is also a false guess name and means Ehjeh is ruin in Hebrew.

God's true name is Ehjeh which is often translated as "I Am".

Jesus is the correct name and means Ehjeh is salvation.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Let me leave you with this - would God include the damnation of the majority of those who believe in him in his plans for our Salvation? Jesus is pronounced Jesus no matter what language the Name is spelled in.
Would he allow Satan to trick most of His children who genuinely believe in Him throughout most of Human history thus far when it comes to the only thing that matters?

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Don't enter NarrowGate's Wide Gate.

Originally posted by truejew

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Let me leave you with this - would God include the damnation of the majority of those who believe in him in his plans for our Salvation? Jesus is pronounced Jesus no matter what language the Name is spelled in.
Would he allow Satan to trick most of His children who genuinely believe in Him throughout most of Human history thus far when it comes to the only thing that matters?

Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:22-23 (KJV)
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Don't enter NarrowGate's Wide Gate.

Like I said, you can not just translate the Bible for yourself and you can thank the Catholic Church for that scripture btw.

The Narrow Gate is the gate you take when you repent and take up your cross, following Jesus and prevailing over the powers of this world (Satan).

Matthew 7:23 is referring to those who have the faith to cast out demons, but do not couple it with good works. A more accurate translation for this day and age is "I never knew you, depart from me, you evil doers".


I never researched Jesus's name because I assumed the Christ would not allow it to be lost in translation and if he did allow it then I would submit that it was meant to happen that way.


Do yourself a favor and read the Catechism. If you want to find a conspiracy in the Church you first have to read that. If you want to convince me I am falsely worshiping Jesus, you should at least know the true beliefs of my Faith. Otherwise, this will be a fruitless exercise. If you do that, we both might actually learn something even if neither mind is changed.



Do you understand how flawed the KJV is, especially in this day and age where our language is so different it is almost a whole new language.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Like I said, you can not just translate the Bible for yourself and you can thank the Catholic Church for that scripture btw.

If by translate you mean interpret, I do not by myself. The true Church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus being the chief cornerstone. We have the five-fold ministry, which I am one of.

I can not thank the Catholic Church for that Scripture, due to it being because of their persecution of the Church that led to them having control of the Scriptures in the first place.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

The Narrow Gate is the gate you take when you repent and take up your cross, following Jesus and prevailing over the powers of this world (Satan).

Yes, you are on your way through the wide gate.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Do you understand how flawed the KJV is, especially in this day and age where our language is so different it is almost a whole new language.

Yes, but it is currently the best we have.

reply to post by truejew


Throughout our discussion you have picked apart my posts to suit what you want to say.
Anyways you are telling me God allowed His word to be corrupted by the Catholic Church and then left us with no authentic Scripture or Sacred Tradition?. That assertion directly contradicts Scripture but then again you choose which Scripture is true....based on what I have no idea.

You have not close to convinced me that I am not following Jesus.

Like I said before the narrow gate is not denomination dependent. There are many protestants that are following Jesus and rejecting their sin.

Is what you believe an oral tradition passed down in your family or something? I am just trying to figure out where I can get some kind of a Catechism of what you believe. You can not just vaguely say Scripture because that is quite obviously not the case.

You vaguely assert that the apostles and prophets are at the foundation of your Church with Jesus as the Cornerstone well get in line all the protestants think that.



Quick question were the first Crusades a just war? Were demonically inspired Gospels being spread in Constantine's time?

Do you only believe KJV is the best version because it is the oldest English translation or do you have more to support that theory?

reply to post by NarrowGate

You have not close to convinced me that I am not following Jesus.

That's because you're all about what YOU want to believe.

reply to post by babybunnies

BABY BUNNIES, YOU ARE 100% RIGHT

Originally posted by NarrowGate
reply to post by truejew

 

Throughout our discussion you have picked apart my posts to suit what you want to say.

I have picked them apart to say the truth.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Anyways you are telling me God allowed His word to be corrupted by the Catholic Church and then left us with no authentic Scripture or Sacred Tradition?.

There are corrupted verses such as Matthew 28:19, however we know which ones are and are not authentic. Our traditions are based on the apostles and prophets.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

You have not close to convinced me that I am not following Jesus.

I am not trying to convince you. I'm trying to keep others from following your wide path.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Like I said before the narrow gate is not denomination dependent. There are many protestants that are following Jesus and rejecting their sin.

You are the one who keeps bringing up denominations, not me. I do not know of any Protestants who are following Jesus and rejecting sin.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

You vaguely assert that the apostles and prophets are at the foundation of your Church with Jesus as the Cornerstone well get in line all the protestants think that.

Protestants follow a trinity of gods, the apostles and prophets did not.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Quick question were the first Crusades a just war?

No war is just. The true Church is peaceful as Jesus taught.

Originally posted by NarrowGate

Do you only believe KJV is the best version because it is the oldest English translation or do you have more to support that theory?

It is based on how close to correct the translation is.