Is the Christian Trinity a Conspiracy ?

reply to post by Murgatroid

You forgot one very important group who also have never believed in the Trinity and never will, Jews/Judaism.

Your comments cut both ways, as a double edged sword, those of us with a unitarian style belief of God, could rightly call trinity believers apostates. We never deny Christ's power or value to God, he is an immortal being with the second most power in the Universe he is also the oldest next to God, but he was created before time and matter existed, essentially before the physical universe even began, but he does have an age, where God doesn't.

You might be surprised at some the unitarians that have lived in more recent times for example

Five presidents of the United States were Unitarians: John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Millard Fillmore, Thomas Jefferson, and William Howard Taft.

Eleven Nobel prizes have been awarded to Unitarians: Robert Millikan and John Bardeen (twice) in Physics; Emily Green Balch, Albert Schweitzer, Linus Pauling, and Geoff Levermore for Peace; George Wald and David H. Hubel in Medicine; Linus Pauling in Chemistry, and Herbert A. Simon in Economics.

Also through the ages many intellectual people figured it out

Paul of Samosata, 269
Arius, 336 (the eponymous heresiarch of Arianism)
Constantius II, Byzantine Emperor, 361
Antipope Felix II, 365
Aëtius, 367
Ulfilas, Apostle to the Goths, 383
Priscillian, 385, considered first Christian to be executed for heresy
Ludwig Haetzer, 1529
Michael Servetus, 1553, burned at the stake in Geneva under John Calvin
Sebastian Castellio, 1563
Ferenc Dávid, 1579
Justus Velsius, c. 1581
Fausto Paolo Sozzini, 1604
John Biddle, 1662
John Milton (poet), c. 1674
Thomas Aikenhead, 1697, last person to be hanged for blasphemy in Britain
John Locke, 1704
Isaac Newton is generally thought not to have believed in Trinitarianism.
William Whiston, 1752, expelled from University of Cambridge in 1710 for Arianism
Jonathan Mayhew, 1766
Emanuel Swedenborg, 1772, eponymous founder of Swedenborgianism.
Benjamin Franklin, 1790,
Joseph Priestley, 1804
Thomas Paine, 1809
Mary Baker Eddy, 1821, founder of Christian Science
Thomas Jefferson, 1826,
James Madison, 1836,
William Ellery Channing, 1842
Robert Hibbert, 1849
John Thomas (Christadelphian), 1871
Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1882
Robert Roberts (Christadelphian), 1898
Benjamin Wilson, 1900
James Martineau, 1900
Félix Manalo, 1914
Charles Taze Russell, 1916, founder of the Bible Student movement and Jehovah's Witnesses
Eliseo Soriano, 1947
William Branham, 1965
Herbert W. Armstrong, 1986

The author H. G. Wells, later famous for his contribution to science-fiction, wrote in The Outline of History: "We shall see presently how later on all Christendom was torn by disputes about the Trinity. There is no evidence that the apostles of Jesus ever heard of the Trinity, at any rate from him."

According to churches that consider ecumenical council decisions final, trinitarianism was infallibly defined at the First Ecumenical Council (the Council of Nicaea) in 325 A.D. Nontrinitarians disagree with the findings of the Council for various reasons, including the belief that the Bible as they understand it takes precedence over creeds, or that there was a Great Apostasy prior to the Council. Church and state in Europe suppressed nontrinitarian belief as heresy from the 4th to 18th century. Today nontrinitarians represent a small minority of professed Christians.

What is highlighted in yellow immediately makes me think of these scriptures
Matthew 7:13-20

13 Enter through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and spacious and broad is the way that leads away to destruction, and many are those who are entering through it.
14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you dressed as sheep, but inside they are devouring wolves.
16 You will ]fully recognize them by their fruits. Do people pick grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every healthy (sound) tree bears good fruit [worthy of admiration], but the sickly (decaying, worthless) tree bears bad (worthless) fruit.
18 A good (healthy) tree cannot bear bad (worthless) fruit, nor can a bad (diseased) tree bear excellent fruit [worthy of admiration].
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and cast into the fire.
20 Therefore, you will fully know them by their fruits

And fruits of the church sponsoring the trinity are ...




Yes, we know their fruits !
Bad & Diseased !

Let's look some more at the history of the trinity shall we. It is interesting that not only was the trinity introduced but the concept of a heavenly mother. More pagan influence? you bet, one needs the other and hey go hand in hand (Mother Goddess and the trinity concept). If the trinity was never introduced the Marian worship in the church would never have been possible. It is the tool by which we can understand the other, and really is the means of honoring the other.

Typically, detractors opposed to the Trinity will immediately use the name of Constantine in an attempt to show how the Council of Nicea was used to promote a pagan concept of God. When someone does this, ask her how well she has studied the process of how the decision was made. Rarely have I found anyone able to explain the major players of the council (Alexander and Athanasius versus Arius), let alone the century the council took place (4th)!

The truth is that less than two dozen bishops (out of some 300) attending the council were ever in favor of Arianism, and by the time the council concluded, only two did not favor the Orthodox position. Truly Constantine’s goal was for reconciliation and had nothing to do with the decision made in Nicea, which was overwhelmingly confirmed in a fuller form at the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381. As Steve Brandt points out,

“Constantine did play an important role at the Council. Eusebius of Caesarea reports that he played a key part in calming, convincing, and bringing all to agreement on contested points. The account of Eusebius fairly glows in regard to the Emperor, and he is portrayed as a key figure. It is nowhere suggested, however, that he was permitted to vote with the bishops nor that he used any form of force to obtain an outcome.”

While the word “Trinity” is never used in the Bible, neither is the concept “Heavenly Mother” nor “Paradise Earth” used in the Bible, even though some might argue these are biblically true ideas. Yet the Trinity clearly solves problems and is a correct belief based on the teaching of the Bible. It shows that, while there is one God (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29), there are three separate Persons who are fully and completely God. (Quick. Who raised Jesus from the dead? Of course, God the Father did according to Acts 3:15. But Jesus also raised Himself from the dead, according to John 2:19 and the Spirit gets credit in Romans 8:11.)

John is by far the most unreliable source of scripture EVER!

blog.mrm.org...


more info on motives of the new "universal church and religion" It was the NWO of the day. The Motive was to get converts. Pagans and Jews had to become part of the flock. The ends were thought to justify the means. Go forth in the name of your old world order. The old worlds political power rested in the church. The one world government that followed was done so by use of the trinity. There are some powerful parallels to be drawn between the lying done then, and what we are facing now.....for a one universal world blah blah blah....LIES.

Although the New Testament does not use the word "Τριάς" (Trinity) nor explicitly teach it, it provided the material upon which the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated.

Reflection by early Christians on passages such as the Great Commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"[Matt 28:19] and Paul the Apostle's blessing: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all,"

[2 Cor. 13:13] while at the same time the Jewish Shema Yisrael: "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one."[Deuteronomy 6:4][20] led the early Christians to question which way the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are in unity.

en.wikipedia.org...

Here is some more info from an Islamic site, I know what you will say, but it is still true....Great read if you have the time. It basically reiterates what has been said here so far and gives a little more insight into the creators of the trinity.

Who Invented the Trinity?

The three monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - all purport to share one fundamental concept: belief in God as the Supreme Being, the Creator and Sustainer of the Universe. Known as tawhid in Islam, this concept of the Oneness of God was stressed by Moses in a Biblical passage known as the "Shema" or the Jewish creed of faith: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

It was repeated word-for-word approximately 1500 years later by Jesus when he said: "...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

Muhammad came along approximately 600 years later, bringing the same message again: "And your God is One God: There is no God but He, ..." (The Qur'an 2:163)

Christianity has digressed from the concept of the Oneness of God, however, into a vague and mysterious doctrine that was formulated during the fourth century. This doctrine, which continues to be a source of controversy both within and without the Christian religion, is known as the Doctrine of the Trinity. Simply put, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity states that God is the union of three divine persons - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - in one divine being.

If that concept, put in basic terms, sounds confusing, the flowery language in the actual text of the doctrine lends even more mystery to the matter:

It is said that Athanasius, the bishop who formulated this doctrine, confessed that the more he wrote on the matter, the less capable he was of clearly expressing his thoughts regarding it.

Trinity in the Bible
References in the Bible to a Trinity of divine beings are vague, at best.

In Matthew 28:19, we find Jesus telling his disciples to go out and preach to all nations. While the "Great Commission" does make mention of the three persons who later become components of the Trinity, the phrase "...baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" is quite clearly an addition to Biblical text - that is, not the actual words of Jesus - as can be seen by two factors:


Baptism in the early Church, as discussed by Paul in his letters, was done only in the name of Jesus; and
The "Great Commission" found in the first gospel written, that of Mark, bears no mention of Father, Son and/or Holy Ghost - see Mark 16:15.

The only other reference in the Bible to a Trinity can be found in the Epistle of I John 5:7, Biblical scholars of today, however, have admitted that the phrase "...there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" is definitely a "later addition" to Biblical test, and it is not found in any of today's versions of the Bible.

It can, therefore, be seen that the concept of a Trinity of divine beings was not an idea put forth by Jesus or any other prophet of God. This doctrine, now subscribed to by Christians all over the world, is entirely man-made in origin.

www.missionislam.com...

Originally posted by zedVSzardoz
Here is some more info from an Islamic site, I know what you will say, but it is still true....

The TRUE agenda of all false religion is to blind and misguide you away from the truth..

This is NOT by accident.

Religion is the greatest enemy of God, because it is Satan's greatest deception.

That is why religious people and cults have ALWAYS attacked Jesus and the Trinity.

The word God (elohim) is plural every time it is used in the Old Testament.

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. The Trinity is a complex doctrine, and there is the aspect of mystery surrounding it.

The Trinity has become the main doctrine that all the cult groups attack. It is also the main doctrine that all the mainline, historic churches agree upon. We may all have our differences, Catholics and varying Protestant groups, but when it comes to the doctrine on God we all agree that the Bible teaches belief in One God revealed in three persons, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless we would not want to believe in the Trinity if the Bible did not teach it, no matter what the beliefs of our various churches were.

It's interesting that the cult groups usually give their members a false definition of the Trinity. For example, the magazine salesmen knocking on your door with their propaganda from Brooklyn, New York, say that the church teaches that there are three gods in one. This is completely false.

In conclusion on the teaching of the Trinity, we have proven beyond doubt from Scripture, that there is only one true God by nature. This one, true God has revealed Himself in three ways, as the Father Yahweh, and the Son Jesus Christ, and as the Holy Spirit. This Trinity teaching was not invented centuries after the death of Christ as the cults teach at the Nicene Council, but is the true revelation of God to us in Scripture.

The council at Nicene convened to drum out of the church the heresy that Jesus Christ was only a creature and an archangel to boot. Various door-knocking cults have attempted to reintroduce the Arian heresy to gullible Christians.

On the following pages are two charts of scriptures for you to check out. Make copies of these to keep in your Bible. Have them available when you encounter any one who has a problem with understanding the Trinity. (For printing use the version from the linked site, it has a transparent B/G)

IS THE TRINITY TRUE?

reply to post by Murgatroid


I could come up with dozens of scriptures to refute all that, but I will use just one to negate all of yours.
You see the perceptions of unity of thought is missing from a trinity believer as God shows it to be.
Every single time the bible shows that God and Jesus are one, they aren't talking about there entity as a physical nature, but the spiritual nature as to thought. Of course God and Jesus are one, but in thought and action, not being. They are united as one, as to purpose, not body and soul.
Here is the scriptures

Mark 10: 7-9

7 For this reason a man shall leave [behind] his father and his mother and be joined to his wife and cleave closely to her permanently, 8 And the two shall become one flesh, so that they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has united (joined together), let not man separate or divide.

Are they literally one flesh? No. They always remain 2 distinct souls, the indication is a very unique and tight bond between 2 distant souls.

So once again it gets down perception, interpretation and literal vs symbolic understanding.

In the end, a reader of the bible(and a christian) must decide if a Creed established by a Pagan is worth questioning? The bible answers.....

Acts 17:11

11 Now these [Jews] were better disposed and more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they were entirely ready and accepted and welcomed the message [concerning the attainment through Christ of eternal salvation in the kingdom of God] with inclination of mind and eagerness, searching and examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


BLUE JAY,

All the councils were against JESUS AS THE MESSIAH, JESUS MENTIONS THE FATHER AND HIMSELF AS THE SON, AND ALSO HOLY SPIRIT. but the evil leaders WHO HATED Yeshua as the Messiah, the only name that can save Christians, but instead of baptising in the name of JESHUA, they changed to JESUS, CHANGED TO THE TRINITY, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WORDS OF YESHUA. Even Christ has nothing to do with Yeshua.

Maybe Trinity was before Constantine, it all depends when was the REVELATION WRITTEN?? ( they say between 100-200 ad) 666 IS THE TRINITY, 666 IS JESUS. 666 IS THE FATHER SON HOLY SPIRIT. 6 is FRIDAY THE DAY JEUSU WAS CRUCIFIED.

XP, CHI RHO, from Constantine is the sign of DEATH, MEANS SKULL AND BONES. XP IS A TROPHY AGAINST JESUS AS THE MESSIAH, XP IS DEATH FOR JESUS.

reply to post by Murgatroid


MURGADROID,

Why does VATICAN PUSH TRINITY, WE ALL KNOW VATICAN IS AGAINST JESUS, I'm a Catholic, but Im very upset regarding who VATICAN IS.

Only in the name of YESHUA CAN WE BE SAVED, SO WHY ARE WE BAPTISED IN THR NAME OF THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT. AND NOT IN THE NAME OF YESHUA??? ONLY REASON IS THAT PUSHING THE TRINITY OR FAKE NAME LIKE CHRIST, BUT NOT PUSHING YESHUA AS THE MESSIAH WHO REPRESENTS HIMSELF AND THE FAHTER AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.

CONSTANTINE WAS A CRIMINAL AND WAS FULLY AGAINST JESUS, HIM AND HIS DEATH SYMBOL XP-CHI RHO- SKULL AND BONES. ITS A VICTORY SYMBOL OVER JESUS AS THE MESSIAH.

666 IS THE TRINITY, FATHER SON, HOLY SPIRIT - JESUS

reply to post by dave13

Originally posted by dave13
Why does VATICAN PUSH TRINITY,

The arch enemy of our souls has always tried to counterfeit the power of God.

The amount of deception in the world today testifies to this.

There are myriad religions in existence.

The root of many of them is purely pagan.

Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.

Now that the beast has been positively identified --- the Vatican, or the papacy, for all intents and purposes --- we can discover its mark, or symbol of authority. To understand the nature of the beast, please keep in mind that Satan is a counterfeiter. He copies a lot of what God does.

For instance, there's the unholy trinity: the dragon, the beast, the false prophet. Satan's purpose for copying is to supplant God. He wants to sit as the Most High.

The Three Angels' Message: God's End-Time Warning

reply to post by Murgatroid

murgadroid,

HOW MANY TIMES DID THEY ACCUSE JESUS OF BLASPHEMY?? REASON WHY IN THE REVELATION THE BEAST WHO IS JESUS IS PORTRAYED AS ACTING LIKE GOD.

The same people that accused JESUS of BLASPHEMY AND CRUCIFIED HIM ARE THE SAME WHO WROTE THE REVELATION AGAINST HIM. JESUS IS 666 AND XP IS THE SIGN OF SKULL AND BONES WHICH MEANS DEATH.
THIS IS THE TRUTH.

Yes, the trinity is pagan. For it to be considered such an important doctrine by trinitarians, but never be clearly taught by Jesus, the apostles, or the early church, should be warning number one. Add in the pagan sources of trinities and the fact that most believers around 200AD where modalists, what other proof is needed.

The true teaching is there is one God, the Father/Holy Spirit manifest in the flesh as the Son of God.

reply to post by Jim Scott


None of the Scriptures you gave talk of three gods/persons.

In addition, trinitarians deny that Jesus is the everlasting Father.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


My Christian church that teaches how to become a Christian not by the Roman Road a sinner prayer ( because no one in the bible was taught to say a sinners prayer to become a Christian) but by the examples given on exactly how they did become Christians - by repentance and baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus ( this is way more biblicaly accurate) - -

teaches that the Trinity was a false manipulation by the Roman Government. The passages in the NT that talks about the three as one were taken out of context. The meaning is that they agree as one body but they are actually separate individuals. Jesus is Not God, but Only Gods son. people have to make Jesus out to be God because only a deity could have such power to do miracles, raise the dead and take on all our sins to save the world. This takes the humanity out of Christ and denies that God could use any vessel he choose to get His work done - even a human sent to be the Savior with God given abilities.

As you point out, the Roman idea of the Trinity ( which most protestant churches follow because they knew no better - they came out of the Catholic Reformation of the Catholic Church) is many times refuted by the Old Testament.

Originally posted by dave13
The same people that accused JESUS of BLASPHEMY AND CRUCIFIED HIM ARE THE SAME WHO WROTE THE REVELATION AGAINST HIM.

What if everything you believed was a lie?

Jesus exposed the people that crucified Him and accused Him of blasphemy while He was still on the Earth:

Note the illuminati in Jesus' day:

"He exposed the synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9; 3:9) he denounced those who belonged to it as sons of the devil (Lucifer), whom he castigated as the father of lies (John 8:44) and the prince of deceit (2 Cor. 11:14). He was specific in his statement that those who comprised the synagogue of Satan were those who called themselves Jews, but were not, and did lie (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). He identified the Money-Changers (Bankers) the Scribes, and the Pharisees as the Illuminati of his day.

Illuminati Roots From the book: Pawns Of The Game

The names have changed, but the beliefs, tactics, and designs of the groups have remained essentially the same.

Once you realize that we are being inundated with LIES, this stuff is actually pretty easy to figure out.

One group and one group alone is responsible for virtually all wars and bloodshed on the face of this planet. This evil cabal is few in numbers but, like a deadly octopus, its tentacles reach out to grip and strangle untold multitudes of innocent victims. The initiates of every secret society and internationalist organization, from the Council on Foreign Relations and the Jesuits to the Bilderbergers and the Order of Skull & Bones, obey the dictates of this sinister group and tremble when standing before its leaders.

The cabalist group I refer to is the Synagogue of Satan, an ancient, yet modern, elite so politically powerful and so fabulously wealthy that even past history has been twisted, reshaped, and revised to meet its preferred version of humanity's gloomy, totalitarian future.

Religious in nature, the Synagogue of Satan is, at its essence, a grotesque, satanic cult. It's high council is composed of High Priests of Lucifer; these are men who literally worship death while practicing sexual magick and occult rituals of the blackest nature.

The Synagogue of Satan

Satan and his Illuminati BOTH go clear back to the Garden...

Bottom line we are dealing with generational satanic families who control this world going back 1,000's of yrs, of their goal to depopulate the world. It does not matter who is put into the office of president, or seek safety with religions, or any other venue. Their everywhere, & in everything. Hidden in plain sight!

Originally posted by dave13
JESUS IS 666

THIS IS THE TRUTH.

THIS is the truth:

“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me.”

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

My Christian church that teaches how to become a Christian not by the Roman Road a sinner prayer ( because no one in the bible was taught to say a sinners prayer to become a Christian) but by the examples given on exactly how they did become Christians - by repentance and baptism for the remission of sins in the name of Jesus ( this is way more biblicaly accurate) - -

teaches that the Trinity was a false manipulation by the Roman Government. The passages in the NT that talks about the three as one were taken out of context. The meaning is that they agree as one body but they are actually separate individuals. Jesus is Not God, but Only Gods son. people have to make Jesus out to be God because only a deity could have such power to do miracles, raise the dead and take on all our sins to save the world. This takes the humanity out of Christ and denies that God could use any vessel he choose to get His work done - even a human sent to be the Savior with God given abilities.

As you point out, the Roman idea of the Trinity ( which most protestant churches follow because they knew no better - they came out of the Catholic Reformation of the Catholic Church) is many times refuted by the Old Testament.

You were correct until you got to the part about Jesus not being God.

Isaiah said...

Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Jesus claimed to be Ehjeh, the God who spoke to Moses...

John 8:58-59 (KJV)
58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Or not. If we will go to hell.

Where did Jesus spent his childhood? He might be thought in some Satan church, right?

IT IS NOT A LIE, JESUS IS 666,

I ask you who wrote the Bible, man through the words of God or just MAN?'

Also do you believe PAUL WAS A TRUE APOSTLE OR FAKE AND A SPY??'

DO YOU Believe that the VATIKAN IS FOR JESUS OR AGAINST??

Do you believe in Constantine vision of the sign of Christ or was he also a spy who created the CHI RHO WHICH STANDS FOR SKULL AND BONES??? , which is death

Jesus arrives in 2013 as a poor person for poor people, goes against VATICAN, WORLD POLITICIANS, WORLD RELIGIONS AND ACCUSES THEM AS SATAN. WHAT DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD DO TO HIM?? They would FIRSTLY KILL HIM IN AN ELECTRIC CHAIR, THEN KILL ALL HIS FOLLOWERS, THEN HAVE A FAKE APOSTLE TO WRITE FALSE INFORMATION AGAINST HIM, THEN THEY WILL CHANGE HIS NAME, THEN THEY WILL WRITE THE NEW REVELATION STATING IN RIDDLES HOW JESUS-YESHUA IS THE DEVIL. AND EVERY MASS THEY WILL CELEBRATE VICTORY OVER JESUS AS A SIN OFFERING AS THE LAMB

VATICAN WILL GO DOWN FOR ALL THE LIES AGAINST YESHUA WHO IS MY MESSIAH.. BUT YOU CAN BELIEVE IN YOUR CHRIST AND THE FAKE TEACHINGS FROM THE HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE AND PAUL THE FIRST FAKE LYING POPE..

Originally posted by dave13
IT IS NOT A LIE, JESUS IS 666,

I thought Jesus was/is 888.

reply to post by dave13


Yelling on the internet turns most people off to your message.

Your message is also wrong. Yeshas and Jesus are the same Messieh. The Hebrew name Yeshas is pronounced as Jesus.