Why don't you believe? (@Non-Believers and Skeptics)

Buddha said it best, believe in why you see and not what your told

reply to post by stanislav

At any practical pace of interstellar travel, the galaxy can be completely colonized in just a few tens of millions of years. According to this line of thinking, the Earth should have already been colonized, or at least visited

Honestly, may be my bias on this, but I think that paradox actually argues in favor of visitation and covert existence on Earth.

Seeing how if Earth is typical, then there would be a high likelihood of galactic civilization. And it just doesn't stand to reason that Earth is this exceptional. I'd say a decent case could be made from this paradox that aliens may indeed have visited Earth.

I think it is more likely that a superior civilization exists and hides than there being no other analogous civilizations in the universe.


It's also pretty funny that this argument is the antithesis of this:



reply to post by Druscilla

there is indeed the possibility for BILLIONS of advanced technological civilizations to be extant, thriving and rampant all over the universe.

On the other hand, the Universe is VAST. The very same statistics that give positive indication of probability for life elsewhere is the very same thing that makes it almost impossibly improbable that any single intelligent technologically advanced culture anywhere in the universe at any time frame (important) will encounter any other culture.

There are a few problems with this argument. For one, you say that the Milky Way would take so long to explore...by one explorer. How about a fleet of 100,000 ships that can teleport, which you provide as an assumption in your experiment. And this species can accurately detect the probability of intelligent life based on characteristics of each solar system, so they only really need to explore say, 1/100 of the stars now.

We've just cut exploration time by 10 million.

And, isn't it possible that time really isn't that much of an issue? What if these advanced beings are essentially immortal, because of advanced medical tech. This is certainly a possibility for humans.

So, a ship may go on a voyage that may take a million years and it's not a problem.


Also, there are a lot of assumptions that people make that may not be true. Our bodies may not be capable of observing the totality of the universe. There may be some particle or wave that exists and travels faster than light, allowing for a more accurate picture of distant solar systems. Or, physics and biology could be exactly as we say it is and a civilization may have knowledge so sophisticated at the atomic level that they may look at a planet 60 million light years away, and be able to forecast what that planet looks like in real time and what it will look like in the time it takes to get there.


I think stanivsla's take that if life is somewhat common, then the galaxy would be explored long ago ,is more true than arguing that distance would prevent any chance of contact.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by stanislav

 

At any practical pace of interstellar travel, the galaxy can be completely colonized in just a few tens of millions of years. According to this line of thinking, the Earth should have already been colonized, or at least visited

Honestly, may be my bias on this, but I think that paradox actually argues in favor of visitation and covert existence on Earth.

Seeing how if Earth is typical, then there would be a high likelihood of galactic civilization. And it just doesn't stand to reason that Earth is this exceptional. I'd say a decent case could be made from this paradox that aliens may indeed have visited Earth.

I think it is more likely that a superior civilization exists and hides than there being no other analogous civilizations in the universe.

Obviously you HAVEN'T read Fermi paradox thoroughly nor have you even tried to understand it. Read it again and try to grasp what it actually postulates. I know it's difficult to use 100 percent of your brain as it is so much easier to use none of it. That's what believers do. It's an an easy way to explain reality. Believe whatever you want as long as logic and common sense does not interfere in your way.

reply to post by stanislav


What's your problem bro? You're the one leaving higher brain functions out of your thinking by insulting and generalizing a group of people based on your own emotional need to be correct.

I went off the quote you provided...If the basic theory is that common intelligent life throughout the universe would mean a colonized galaxy, and Earth seems not to be colonized by a superior species, there must not be intelligent life...then I stand by my point.

It is more likely colonization has indeed happened with us being unaware about it, then it is likely that Earth is home to the only intelligent life in the universe.

But sure, I'll look into the theory a little more.

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


Once again, it's not just distance, it TIME and Timing too.
If aliens don't get the timing just right, we're either not even evolved from rats yet, or, we blew ourselves up in a nuclear war, or some other self inflicted extinction event hundreds or thousands of years before they show up.

Let's say by some strange chance there were indeed aliens, and these aliens were in our neighborhood within a 10 light year bubble scanning for primitive young civilization radio waves ... 500 years ago.

Well, 500 years ago they'd have found absolutely nothing on the RF band as far as we are concerned and no radio would equate to them zipping off to the next 10 light year bubble, and so on until they're far far away and won't be in this neighborhood for another several thousands of years.

Time and Timing is crucial, so, it's not only just a matter of distance. It's a matter of finding us at just the right time.

All in all, it just boils down to the same old tired, argued to death speculative arguments of Drake vs Fermi.

We won't know until we know, and to know, we need something we can poke at with an appropriately scientific stick.
Invisible aliens are crap. No invisible aliens allowed. All invisible aliens will not be sold t-shirts, collectible Earth mugs, or anything onna stick.

reply to post by Druscilla


The problem with humans attempts at detection is our methods are so....human. We're applying assumptions about life and intelligence entirely based on humanity and Earth. These are probably extremely weak assumptions. Radio communication is an example.

The reality is that our universe is so big and unknown, that speculation is every bit as valuable as verification. And there are too many possibilities to really discount anything.

You are too sensitive. Get over yourself and maybe you will learn something new today. Let's get to the point.

The Fermi Paradox Simplified The Fermi Paradox was first stated by Enrico Fermi in 1950 during a lunch time conversation. Fermi, a certified genius, used some straight forward math to show that if technological civilizations were common and moderately long-lived, then the galaxy ought to be fully inhabited. The vast distances of interstellar space should not be a significant barrier to any such civilization --assuming exponential population growth and plausible technology. "Contact" should thus be completely inevitable; we ought to find unavoidable evidence of "little green men" all about us. Our Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence (SETI) should have been quickly successful. We don't. It hasn't been. That's the paradox.

So basically considering the exponential growth and plausible technology with the fact that we did not make any contact means only one thing and it is that we are indeed the only intelligent civilization in our entire universe.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by stanislav

 

What's your problem bro? You're the one leaving higher brain functions out of your thinking by insulting and generalizing a group of people based on your own emotional need to be correct.

I went off the quote you provided...If the basic theory is that common intelligent life throughout the universe would mean a colonized galaxy, and Earth seems not to be colonized by a superior species, there must not be intelligent life...then I stand by my point.

It is more likely colonization has indeed happened with us being unaware about it, then it is likely that Earth is home to the only intelligent life in the universe.

But sure, I'll look into the theory a little more.

reply to post by stanislav


Yeah, that's an extremely weak conclusion based on a ton of faulty assumptions.

That's why I said this paradox points to visitation in some ways. Because the chance that Earth is the only planet with intelligent life doesn't seem logical..

But, a lot of people wanted the Earth to be the center of the universe a while back. Here we have an evolved proposal of the same ego based nonsense.

It is far more likely that there is intelligent life out there, that has evaded our detection (which we've been doing for a very short time).

And for those who STILL DO NOT UNDERSTAND FERMI PARADOX please watch this video. I specifically made it start from 3 minutes and 15 seconds. Maybe this will finally seal the deal.

www.youtube.com...

Enjoy!

PS: Music at the end of the [presentation is just beautiful!

reply to post by stanislav


Vid's not working...and I'll admit it is an interesting paradox that I hadn't read before, thank's for posting it..
'

But I can't come to the conclusion of nonexistence of aliens based on it. I can't come to the concrete conclusion of existence either, but I've always placed a very high probability there.

Have you concluded that intelligence life does not exist anywhere besides Earth?

Or are you,like me, just leaning hard in one direction.

ETA: A good explanation for there being no sign of life out there would be teleportational travel. Not outside the realm of possibility by any means.

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by Druscilla

 

The problem with humans attempts at detection is our methods are so....human. We're applying assumptions about life and intelligence entirely based on humanity and Earth. These are probably extremely weak assumptions. Radio communication is an example.

The reality is that our universe is so big and unknown, that speculation is every bit as valuable as verification. And there are too many possibilities to really discount anything.

To turn that on its head; there are too many possibilities for NO Aliens to account for anything.
Everywhere we've looked, so far, equals no life, not even microbes.

From a numerical standpoint, sure, there's possibility for aliens, but, from a physical standpoint, well, you may want to consider how deadly Gamma Rays, and other very high energy hazards, not to mention the cold vacuum of space, hazardous gravity wells like super massive stars, neutron stars, black holes, and all the giga-tons of super deadly dangerous hazards like little bits of rock travelling at relativistic speeds that could turn anything they impact into a beautiful blossom of nuclear equivalent blast, and then there's antimatter, plus any number of unknown hazards all over the universe.

Outside the comfort and safety of our warm little planetary bubble, it's a harsh deadly dangerous, not-friendly-at-all jungle of death dealing hazards.

You know it's sort of sad really that we are alone in this universe but at the same time humanity is going to be the first one to populate other planets, probably even other galaxies. Just the prospect of the scale is mind boggling. Imagine humanity being the first one to populate a new star system. God ... I would have been so proud of humanity. Humanity's destiny is among far away stars in far far away cosmos. We are the aliens. We will be the first prototype to explorer and seed other planets. I don't know if that isn't more amazing than waiting for someone else to find us.

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by stanislav

 

Vid's not working...and I'll admit it is an interesting paradox that I hadn't read before, thank's for posting it..
'

But I can't come to the conclusion of nonexistence of aliens based on it. I can't come to the concrete conclusion of existence either, but I've always placed a very high probability there.

Have you concluded that intelligence life does not exist anywhere besides Earth?

Or are you,like me, just leaning hard in one direction.

ETA: A good explanation for there being no sign of life out there would be teleportational travel. Not outside the realm of possibility by any means.

edit on 11/27/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17


Absolutely, thank you for another voice of reason.

I definitely believe that there is extraterrestrial life out there. It is beyond close minded and naive for one to think that we are 'it' in a practically infinite universe that holds trillions of galaxies. In Our yet 'exploration' of the universe, we have not even gone past our own sun (in fact we are still billions of miles away from it), something that we see everyday and revolve around.. Our understanding/knowledge of the universe is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

But, whats new, people can never just be at peace with saying that they don't know what is out there about anything, most people do not wish to open their minds to such a thing because the unknown scares the living hell out of them, they would rather speak matter of fact and believe in one of the several undeveloped theories revolving around such things, it's much easier. This has been around since the dawn of human history, in all shapes and forms.

Originally posted by paladinah
It really is depressing thinking about the amount of people who mock the idea of UFOs and inter-dimensional beings

edit on 26-11-2012 by paladinah because: changed 'an' to 'a'

u

I guess it is all about faith then...the interesting part is there are billions of people that say this same thing about religion, so you should take comfort that there ARE billions just like you. The fact you have different Gods is moot since in both cases everyone’s faith is strong enough that they do not need tangible proof to believe.
I guess I need more faith it seems…

Our understanding/knowledge of the universe is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

So following your line of logic, since we know more about the surface of the moon than we know about our oceans it is then safe to say that we might as well find pink elephants swimming deep down at the bottom of an Atlantic ocean. Who is to say what exists and what doesn't. Right?

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
I definitely believe that there is extraterrestrial life out there. It is beyond close minded and naive for one to think that we are 'it' in a practically infinite universe that holds trillions of galaxies. In Our yet 'exploration' of the universe, we have not even gone past our own sun (in fact we are still billions of miles away from it), something that we see everyday and revolve around, our understanding of the universe and knowledge of so is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

It's also extremely naive and beyond gullible to fall for and believe in any of the stuff on Youtube, or coming out of the UFOlogy circus as well as putting stock in sloppy thinking that banks on fantasies about any sorts of sundry countless types of extra-terrestrial-hybrid-robot-insectoid-reptilian-anunnaki-grey-white-blue-light-being-invisible-benevolent-demon-angel-atlantean visiting, living, collaborating, and/or involved with this planet in any sort of way.

How wide-eyed mouth-breathing gawking and gushing gullible do you have to be to lose all sense of any kind of critical thought that relies on even the barest bit of corroborating verifiable evidence?

Show us one of these aliens; give us some empirical data, and I'll be happy to get in line to rub rainbow crystals all over my 15th pine scented eyeball to go wowing at the wonders of the 851st dimension while high-fiving my higher, lower, upper, sideways backwards, forwards, upside down and diagonal selves.

I definitely believe that there is extraterrestrial life out there. It is beyond close minded and naive for one to think that we are 'it' in a practically infinite universe that holds trillions of galaxies

Again! I think it is close minded to think that we aren't alone given ZERO evidence to negate our current understanding of the universe. We haven't found ANY EVIDENCE of any intelligent and or even bacterial life in our own solar system, let alone the rest of the visible universe. Please don't bring up conspiracy theories about Mars. You are using logical fallacy to win your argument.

most people do not wish to open their minds to such a thing because the unknown scares the living hell out of them

Precisely it!

I am scared SH@#@ of the unknown. I don't want to find out that evil bastard reptilians have taken over the world. I don't want to face the truth of the unknown. Who knows maybe one day I am going to wake up only to realize it was all but a bad dream.

Originally posted by Druscilla

To turn that on its head; there are too many possibilities for NO Aliens to account for anything.
Everywhere we've looked, so far, equals no life, not even microbes.
.

From a numerical standpoint, sure, there's possibility for aliens, but, from a physical standpoint, well, you may want to consider how deadly Gamma Rays, and other very high energy hazards, not to mention the cold vacuum of space, hazardous gravity wells like super massive stars, neutron stars, black holes, and all the giga-tons of super deadly dangerous hazards like little bits of rock travelling at relativistic speeds that could turn anything they impact into a beautiful blossom of nuclear equivalent blast, and then there's antimatter, plus any number of unknown hazards all over the universe.

Outside the comfort and safety of our warm little planetary bubble, it's a harsh deadly dangerous, not-friendly-at-all jungle of death dealing hazards.

We should go on the assumption that the universe is teaming with life. Here on earth it started at a very early stage and never stopped, and I would think that would most likely be the norm under the right conditions throughout the universe.

With that said, we are not talking about life in general here but advance space faring/dimensional faring life forms, and that starts to really reduce the odds. If we take earth once again, there has been trillions of different life forms created over billions of years here, but so far there has been only one life form with a small chance to become space faring…us.

There has only been one life form over billions of years that has had the capability to build too as we do, so it is not just intelligence but also opposable thumbs, plus other physical and mental needs that all severely reduce evolution from getting it all right over and over. With us, it is said that at about 9 billion years is when stars and planets were finally formed to be the universe we see today and it took earth 4.5 billion years to make us from scratch, and if we died out like we almost did a few times what then. Just looking at us and the time involved it suggests that the universe has not made too many life forms that have all the right stuff when earth out of trillions of life forms gets one...one maybe.

I also don’t think intelligence is always a good trait. Evolution constantly evolves good and bad traits. Good ones carry on and bad ones die out, and when we look at intelligence with humans the jury is still out on whether we will survive or not. As we keep evolving we also become weaker to survive in our own environment without a lot of aid. A typical major disaster could wipe the human race off of earth, BUT life on earth would still go on, and that there is the main point.

If anyone bets on a single life form type lasting longer than a few million years then they will die a very poor person. Evolution has shown us a trillion times over that ALL life forms come and go, but life in general continues. In the end, yes there is a lot of life in the universe that continually resets and this all just does not spell well for the idea that there are some ancient space faring alien at all, much less that just happens to also find our tiny planet in an endless sea called out universe.