Why don't you believe? (@Non-Believers and Skeptics)

Originally posted by stanislav

Our understanding/knowledge of the universe is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

So following your line of logic, since we know more about the surface of the moon than we know about our oceans it is then safe to say that we might as well find pink elephants swimming deep down at the bottom of an Atlantic ocean. Who is to say what exists and what doesn't. Right?

edit on 27-11-2012 by stanislav because: (no reason given)

No. That is not "my line of logic". Of course we know enough about our planet and it's life to know that such a thing would be impossible. Good one though. However I feel as if such a comparison is far off.

Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
I definitely believe that there is extraterrestrial life out there. It is beyond close minded and naive for one to think that we are 'it' in a practically infinite universe that holds trillions of galaxies. In Our yet 'exploration' of the universe, we have not even gone past our own sun (in fact we are still billions of miles away from it), something that we see everyday and revolve around, our understanding of the universe and knowledge of so is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

It's also extremely naive and beyond gullible to fall for and believe in any of the stuff on Youtube, or coming out of the UFOlogy circus as well as putting stock in sloppy thinking that banks on fantasies about any sorts of sundry countless types of extra-terrestrial-hybrid-robot-insectoid-reptilian-anunnaki-grey-white-blue-light-being-invisible-benevolent-demon-angel-atlantean visiting, living, collaborating, and/or involved with this planet in any sort of way.

How wide-eyed mouth-breathing gawking and gushing gullible do you have to be to lose all sense of any kind of critical thought that relies on even the barest bit of corroborating verifiable evidence?

Show us one of these aliens; give us some empirical data, and I'll be happy to get in line to rub rainbow crystals all over my 15th pine scented eyeball to go wowing at the wonders of the 851st dimension while high-fiving my higher, lower, upper, sideways backwards, forwards, upside down and diagonal selves.

edit on 27-11-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)

Yes, I completely agree with this. COMPLETELY. People will believe in anything it seems, whether it be based off of closed mindedness or gullibility.. It's wild how insane such peoples creations or 'theories' can be, lol. The reptilian crap is unbelievable LOL, it's pretty entertaining especially when they get into all of these different alien specie things.. It's pretty wild, sometimes such things are so far fetched and INSANE that I almost want to ask them if they SERIOUSLY believe this crap, lol.

Well it is a FACT that we know more about the moon surface than about our oceans. We haven't been able to explore all of our oceans. We constantly find new species so who knows maybe one of these days we are going to find pink elephants swimming at the bottom of an ocean. And who knows maybe aliens too, all at the bottom of an ocean. Seriously I know this is an insult to your intelligence but you need to lean a bit more about critical thinking. I think a lot of people like you choose to be willfully ignorant and wishfully believe anything that makes them feel comfortable, safe. If you aren't a child then I believe like any adult you should also learn how to reason like one.

Originally posted by TheIceQueen

Originally posted by stanislav

Our understanding/knowledge of the universe is so undeveloped and minuscule- it is ignorant for one to say in fact what is and what isn't, what exists and what doesn't in such a case.

So following your line of logic, since we know more about the surface of the moon than we know about our oceans it is then safe to say that we might as well find pink elephants swimming deep down at the bottom of an Atlantic ocean. Who is to say what exists and what doesn't. Right?

edit on 27-11-2012 by stanislav because: (no reason given)

No. That is not "my line of logic". Of course we know enough about our planet and it's life to know that such a thing would be impossible. Good one though. However I feel as if such a comparison is far off.

Originally posted by stanislav

I definitely believe that there is extraterrestrial life out there. It is beyond close minded and naive for one to think that we are 'it' in a practically infinite universe that holds trillions of galaxies

Again! I think it is close minded to think that we aren't alone given ZERO evidence to negate our current understanding of the universe. We haven't found ANY EVIDENCE of any intelligent and or even bacterial life in our own solar system, let alone the rest of the visible universe. Please don't bring up conspiracy theories about Mars. You are using logical fallacy to win your argument.

Lol, I said that I BELIEVE that, not that I see it as fact. For one to believe something as in- for it to be the probable case, is different then saying that it is fact. Yes, we have not found any forms of life in our solar system, which we have not come close to fully exploring... We have not found life on Mars or the Moon from our landing on both and studying them, does Mars and the moon=our solar system? No.

reply to post by stanislav


Jesus dude, calm the hell down. Holy hell. take a pill or something. I wasn't trying to argue with anyone, but you certainly are. Have fun with yourself.

Originally posted by TheIceQueen
reply to post by stanislav

 

Jesus dude, calm the hell down. Holy hell.

take a pill or something. I wasn't trying to argue with anyone, but you certainly are. Have fun with yourself.

Hahaha!

Originally posted by Xtrozero

We should go on the assumption that the universe is teaming with life. Here on earth it started at a very early stage and never stopped, and I would think that would most likely be the norm under the right conditions throughout the universe.

With that said, we are not talking about life in general here but advance space faring/dimensional faring life forms, and that starts to really reduce the odds. If we take earth once again, there has been trillions of different life forms created over billions of years here, but so far there has been only one life form with a small chance to become space faring…us.

There has only been one life form over billions of years that has had the capability to build too as we do, so it is not just intelligence but also opposable thumbs, plus other physical and mental needs that all severely reduce evolution from getting it all right over and over. With us, it is said that at about 9 billion years is when stars and planets were finally formed to be the universe we see today and it took earth 4.5 billion years to make us from scratch, and if we died out like we almost did a few times what then. Just looking at us and the time involved it suggests that the universe has not made too many life forms that have all the right stuff when earth out of trillions of life forms gets one...one maybe.

I also don’t think intelligence is always a good trait. Evolution constantly evolves good and bad traits. Good ones carry on and bad ones die out, and when we look at intelligence with humans the jury is still out on whether we will survive or not. As we keep evolving we also become weaker to survive in our own environment without a lot of aid. A typical major disaster could wipe the human race off of earth, BUT life on earth would still go on, and that there is the main point.

If anyone bets on a single life form type lasting longer than a few million years then they will die a very poor person. Evolution has shown us a trillion times over that ALL life forms come and go, but life in general continues. In the end, yes there is a lot of life in the universe that continually resets and this all just does not spell well for the idea that there are some ancient space faring alien at all, much less that just happens to also find our tiny planet in an endless sea called out universe.

edit on 27-11-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

I disagree with going on any sort of assumption when such an assumption is based on ZERO supporting evidence.
With what we currently understand regarding the Universe at large, life, so far, has been found only one place; here on this one tiny little jewel of a sparkling rock we call home, named Earth.

Everywhere else we've looked, we got nothing.
Thus, to assume the Universe is teeming with life would be fallacy based on our current data set.

Besides that, so what? If the rest of the Greater Universe is an outright shopping mall with crowds milling about tentacle to shoulder to eye stalk to any other sort of body part deep, it matters absolutely zero if we can't see them, talk to them, or interact in any way at all.
Any information to that extent would be absolutely worthless information.

It's equivalent to me informing some homeless hobo that the Sultan of Brunei has a net worth of $20 Billion.
Of what worth is that information to that hobo? ZERO.

What's important is finding life, or just evidence of life elsewhere in our local immediacy of a dozen or so light years, or any bubble of local neighborhood distance that we might actually be able to reach and/or communicate with through whatever feats of engineering and technology we might be able to eventually dream up to meet the challenge.

The rest of the Universe, as fascinating as it is, as far as life is concerned, is worthless except where it can give us information regarding ... The Universe, cosmological puzzles, and other sorts of informations we can hash out from what little bit we have the ability to observe and make predictions regarding.
If observing the rest of the universe helps us solve the puzzle of Faster Than Light travel, then, whoopee, it's not so worthless after all.
As far as life,is concerned, however, the neighbors need be close enough to eventually plan on stopping by for a "hello", whether they're just photosythesizing ocean slime, actual complex organisms like fish, dogs, cats, butterflies, ponies, whatever, or even the rarity of someone that we can actually sit down with and have some palaver.

Thus, so what if the rest of the Universe has life? It does us absolutely nothing. We need find life in our neighborhood locality so we can make sure we're all wearing the same color when we step out on the street to thug out some Represent at the rest of the galaxy, even if we're just kick'n it with our photosynthesizing slime mold homies from planet Z.

Ummm heresay is not scientific evidence.. So basically there is no evidence of anything other worldly out there.


As for the radar hits...why only some and not all...this seems like it is an error with the radar equipment and not actual proof of anything...otherwise every UFO would be seen by radar not only a few.

As for pictures and videos...most are utter BS and the few that are interesting really don't show anything..and could be anything man made or something natural.

As for alien abductions..this is laughable...this is the only part of the phenomenon that has zero proof yet is taken so seriously.

reply to post by randyvs


Perhaps if you read here, you are still wrong about angels and demons, yes they are aliens even if they Ethereal.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul
what you say is stil NOT what most skeptics believe - what "we" believe is that inadequate evidence is inadequate evidence.

And claiming there is secret evidence elsewhere that "proves" the case but no-one can actually see it does not make the claim based on poor evidence any better.

Yes the evidence is poor and I myself doubt in all these stories. Poor evidence due to not being in the wide open public does not necessarily mean you have to dismiss its existence. Just need to be open for possibilities, that's what I do.

reply to post by ArMaP

Sceptics are not denialists (if that word exists), we do not deny the possibility (any possibility) because we cannot really know if it's possible or not, we can only use our experience and knowledge (for what they may be worth) to try to understand what is more likely to be the best possibility, but even then we know that we can be wrong.

Being a sceptic means not be certain of anything.

Don't speak from the name of all skeptics, mister. I am not a believer but I see where the skeptical logic fails. What you are saying is true, I myself doubt all the stories. However, I am talking about those skeptics that are certain that ALL is made up and non-existent, even things they do not know because they are kept away from public - that every single clue is fake - I am not talking about some UFO Researchers and TV shows or the Internet where there's lots of crap... I am talking about the overall idea and how certain some are of the non-existence because the evidence isn't knocking on their door.

I mean, based on lots of accounts, excluding the media - Internet, TV... how can you be certain that all this is NOT? I mean.. lol

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth
reply to post by Unidentified_Objective

 

Do your own research.

You knew it was coming didn't you Unidentified_Objective


ATS don't forget to do your own research.

I wish this advice could be taken seriously by the people that make such statements.

WOOPS, off to the library for me

Originally posted by theabsolutetruth
reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

 

Absolutely, thank you for another voice of reason.

No it's not "logical" to assume that vastness = prevalence of life... that's the basic flawed assumption here...

Many people BELIEVE that to be true, even scientists, but their belief is NOT EVIDENCE of life. much less of UFO and alien visitation.

As long as you believe that somehow the larger the universe, the more likely there is to be life is a proven fact, you will be on the wrong side of this...

In fact there's mathematical theories that state the vastness of the universe is the exact proof of the NON-existence of aliens... e.g. the vastness and age of the universe would suggest that if life was common throughout we'd already know about it as it would leave various signatures and we would probably have better evidence than most of the debunked crap that UFOologists pass around...

I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the believers around here don't know about or have even heard of atmospheric plasmas. An electromagnetic phenomena that can and does exhibit characteristics of UFO behavior. Things like luminosity in a wide range of colors, even changing colors at random, changing shape, they can move slowly or speed off in a blink of an eye or remain stationary, They can appear or disappear at random, they can and do show up on radar, they can eject smaller 'orbs', they can generate a buzzing noise or be completely silent, they can react to environmental stimuli ie following or evading aircraft etc.etc.

On top of that the research into these phenomena started relatively recently. Since the mid 80's. So any claims from the 40's or 50's that ruled out atmospheric anomalies or natural phenomena are rendered useless.

Plasmas probably don't account for all UFO reports however they are likely to blame for a large portion of them.

With that in mind, how certain can anyone be that what has been seen is actually extraterrestrial?

Do your own research indeed...

Project Hessdalen

Hessdalen Light

reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

This is the viewpoint I have. But it's just my own opinion, not fact. I don't know for a fact that intelligent ET's have visited earth, I only suspect it. I lean in that direction as opposed to the other one. But neither of us have certainty on our side. They don't know for a fact there're no intelligent ET's visiting earth and I don't know for a fact that intelligent ET's are visiting. Thus, I arrive where I'm at right now, which is mostly on the fence, but leaning towards intelligent ET's.

A true skeptic, imho, cannot be certain. One must admit that we just don't know for sure. This doesn't mean that ET is visiting, nor does it mean ET is not. It's just an observation.

There're probably as many potential explanations for this reality as there're grains of sand. Even our theories to explain physical laws only pertain to the immediate reality. But what does that say about the origins of this reality or the reality that resides outside this one? Thus, I just cannot say with certainty anything about this reality. In fact, current theory says there're portions (size unspecified) of this universe we will NEVER see because they're outside the terminator that light can possibly reach. This means that with the expansion of the universe and the limits of light speed that even with the best technology we will never ever see portions of the universe beyond the terminator. And since we don't know for sure how big the rest of the cosmos is outside the observable universe then it could be a lot we're not seeing. And this is just our own reality, not the ones outside.

But in all practical terms scientific theory is the most reliable. We know already so much about our immediate reality; gravity, light, heat, matter, energy, biology, chemistry, etc. Just because I entertain some wild notions doesn't mean I'll throw the science book and preach ufology.

If it was the end of the world and I was hurt and I had to choose between two guys to trust and on the one side, he's a marine science specialist, and the other he's a ufologist, I'll go with the specialist. Why? Because it's a practical decision. In practical matters, I will almost always put my trust in the scientist. This is just an observation of mine. I have faith in science. If evidence leads away from intelligent ET's and even puts into question widespread ET microbes then I'll have to side with it. But right now I just don't think we know enough. For example, we've only landed a man on one other body of mass in the universe: the moon. How many others do you think there're? With some 200+ sextillion stars in the observable universe and possibly hundreds of billions of rogue planets per galaxy and 139 moons in our solar system alone, there must be quite a few. We haven't had hte occasion to sample every moon and every rock and every planet in our solar system for life. I'm only aware of the viking experiment in 1976 (that the right date?). Just one is not enough to conclude anything. So we've landed people on one body of mass and sampled for life once, get me?

Can someone tell me HOW and WHY OP received 27 stars for his-her original post? Insanity must be rampant around here.

and there is also no way for us to know that aliens aren't pink elephants visiting from the bottom of an ocean. We can go ahead an speculate what if all day long but as long as there is ZERO evidence about something, it doesn't exist. So far advanced alien life vising our planet is a remote possibility at best.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by PatrickGarrow17

 

This is the viewpoint I have. But it's just my own opinion, not fact. I don't know for a fact that intelligent ET's have visited earth, I only suspect it. I lean in that direction as opposed to the other one. But neither of us have certainty on our side. They don't know for a fact there're no intelligent ET's visiting earth and I don't know for a fact that intelligent ET's are visiting. Thus, I arrive where I'm at right now, which is mostly on the fence, but leaning towards intelligent ET's.

A true skeptic, imho, cannot be certain. One must admit that we just don't know for sure. This doesn't mean that ET is visiting, nor does it mean ET is not. It's just an observation.

edit on 27-11-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

Originally posted by stanislav
Can someone tell me HOW and WHY OP received 27 stars for his-her original post? Insanity must be rampant around here.

To be honest it is a legitimate question by itself. To ask why one believes or not in this subject. If the thread had been started with an honest intent of actually trying to understand the opposite view instead of projecting their own false ideals onto the question it may not have gone off the rails quite so badly.

Originally posted by Slave2Fate

Originally posted by stanislav
Can someone tell me HOW and WHY OP received 27 stars for his-her original post? Insanity must be rampant around here.

To be honest it is a legitimate question by itself. To ask why one believes or not in this subject. If the thread had been started with an honest intent of actually trying to understand the opposite view instead of projecting their own false ideals onto the question it may not have gone off the rails quite so badly.

It's basically political.

People that are believers gave it stars and flags to support the underlying contention: skeptics are wrong... And smelly.

Originally posted by longlostbrother


It's basically political.

People that are believers gave it stars and flags to support the underlying contention: skeptics are wrong... And smelly.

Yes, I can see that already even having only joined this forum recently. It's a typical 'us versus them' mentality when we are all actually looking for answers here. Just with differing methodologies. I have found that when there is collaboration between the two camps that the most progress is made. The progress toward understanding the UFO phenomena (both physically and psychologically) is all I'm really interested in.

I doubt OP was sincere in his-her intent as it was obvious he-she was looking for a bait and got MORE than he-she could handle.

Originally posted by Slave2Fate

Originally posted by stanislav
Can someone tell me HOW and WHY OP received 27 stars for his-her original post? Insanity must be rampant around here.

To be honest it is a legitimate question by itself. To ask why one believes or not in this subject. If the thread had been started with an honest intent of actually trying to understand the opposite view instead of projecting their own false ideals onto the question it may not have gone off the rails quite so badly.

Some of it seems to be a crutch to help people deal with the fact we are just here
Some of it is for misdirection and control
Some of it matters
Some of it is trolls