The Homosexual Agenda

I'm not sure you want to get back to the original discussion Grady, it sure seemed like people were riding you hard () back then.

It's convenient of you to leave off some of the other portions of those "manifestoes," such as this great line:

The revolution will bring about so many fabulous changes. For example, never again will our US currency be defaced with portraits of ugly dead men. All bills will feature pictures of cute girls.

But keep taking them seriously, Grady. It's obvious most of them are either completely deranged, or almost comical in nature.

I'm not sure if anyone else pointed it out, but notice the site it comes from:

www.inoohr.org...

What's the INOOHR stand for? International Organization of Homosexual Rights?

Nope.

International Organization of Heterosexual Rights.

AKA propanganda.

I thought you were more educated than to buy into such simple-minded propaganda Grady, I guess I was wrong.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
I asked whether or not you chose to be straight. I'm not talking about whether you follow thru on it, I'm talking about in your mind, have you ever been attracted to another male. Yes or no.

Uh no I havent, I find the though repulsive, and dont take this wrong but I have never wanted to have sex with animals, plants, children, or men, or heshe's (?).

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONIf you've always been attracted to females as far back as you remember, that means that it's not a choice.

Well when I hit puberty the same as you, I liked the female shapes, smells and yes giggles. You mean you right then knew at this same time? You days in the shower at school were spent looking in the shower? I dont believe that, something triggered your preference.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONEither it came "natural" to you, or at some point you were equally attracted to both men and women, but 'chose' women for whatever reason.

Either? Well that one is even harder to figure out, just what are they...nevermind. At least you picked one.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON I'm asking for you, which of these statements is true.

I have answered this.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONAs for that finding the Lord comment, sorry, I don't believe that.

Well that is obvious and that is why you cannot understand my postion the same as I can not understand yours. You want acceptance from me and can never have the acceptance of living that sin which you consider no sin. I could work with you and be as nice as I possibly could but I could never condone this behavior. Sorry.

And I sincerely believe that He did not make you that way. I really do.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONAnd that's why I feel sorry for you. Because you have no idea. If you base so much of your life on God, and you say that God would not create someone gay, I know for a fact you are wrong.

And how is this? If thier is no God then you were just DNA'd in to being gay? Think about it, even if you do not believe in the God of Christianity, but if you believe in a Creator, then you would have to wonder why something was created that could not Pass the Genes of the species. It goes against nature. As Grady points out, it is a perversion of the natural laws in which I believe God created. It doesnt make you a bad person, you can be agreat person, but I can not condone the sin.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONYou don't have to believe me, as I said you will find out some day. I have no doubt when that day comes, you'll find some way to justify your beliefs, much the same way people did when they found out men don't have one less rib than women, or any of the other stories told by the bible which have been proven wrong by science.

Oh come on, I could spit thousnads of proofs your way to prove just as well that life was created as you could spit disproofs. Thing is you do not see anything wrong with it and want all people to accept it as normal in which it is not. Doesnt mean you wont be a success in this world at all, it is just a fundemental disagreement we have, thats all.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONAs for your other comments trying to justify the sins you commit every day, that's a shame.

I never said I justify them, I explained as best I could how you have warped Gods word to fit your agenda with me. I said I sin, you sin, we ALL sin.....but you use the pork argument and I ahve already shown you it it alright for me to eat pork or shellfish nd I could show you where I can also work on the sabbath. YOur arguments fall upon ignornace of what the Bible says, no offense meant because I feel you just dont know.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON Don't hold people up to one standard while you follow a completely different standard. If God doesn't want you to be sinful, don't be sinful. If you are by your own admissions sinful, don't talk down and criticize other people for being "sinful" either.

Look I admitted my sins, you havent. I recognize my sin, you dont. thats the difference.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTONYou are not preaching God's ideals, you are just preaching your own. You try to justify your sins while saying someone else's 'sins' are worse on the sin-o-meter. It's not a choice to be gay, but it is a choice whether to smoke, or drink

But hey, even if you choose to sin, God still loves you!

You ahvent read the whole thread have you? I will state it again for you.

There is NO degree to sin, and only one is UNFORGIVEABLE, and no murder is not that sin. Drinking might be a sin to you, but it is not ine to me becuase Christ drank wine and if drinking wine is a sin, than Christianity is moot, the whole thing. Christ was sinless and dies to pay for my sin, your sin, everyones sin....

And yes, if you sin God still loves you but wishes you to ask forgiveness from that sin. Recognizing sin is the first step.

I hope I have answered your questions and I do not mean to offend you, but I am being honest with you as best I can.

The revolution will bring about so many fabulous changes. For example, never again will our US currency be defaced with portraits of ugly dead men. All bills will feature pictures of cute girls.

fabulous Baby !

How could you have not known that word would appear !

Deep

And how is this? If thier is no God then you were just DNA'd in to being gay? Think about it, even if you do not believe in the God of Christianity, but if you believe in a Creator, then you would have to wonder why something was created that could not Pass the Genes of the species. It goes against nature. As Grady points out, it is a perversion of the natural laws in which I believe God created. It doesnt make you a bad person, you can be agreat person, but I can not condone the sin.

Of which i refuted, unless of course you skipped over that. Even if God created us in his image, he would have undoubtably granted a pyschological and biological failsafe that contested any act of homosexuality; being that nature has manifested homosexual animals and homosexuality in man, it's clear to say that either God did not create man, or God simply #ed up.

There is NO degree to sin, and only one is UNFORGIVEABLE, and no murder is not that sin. Drinking might be a sin to you, but it is not ine to me becuase Christ drank wine and if drinking wine is a sin, than Christianity is moot, the whole thing. Christ was sinless and dies to pay for my sin, your sin, everyones sin....

You mean Jesus, oh which there is not historical evidence to conclude that such a man walked the face of this Earth....

I still want my answer.

Deep

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
It's convenient of you to leave off some of the other portions of those "manifestoes," such as this great line:

But keep taking them seriously, Grady.

It's obvious most of them are either completely deranged, or almost comical in nature.

I'm not sure if anyone else pointed it out, but notice the site it comes from:

www.inoohr.org...

What's the INOOHR stand for?
International Organization of Heterosexual Rights.

I thought you were more educated than to buy into such simple-minded propaganda Grady, I guess I was wrong.

I have stated several times that when I went to google the topic of "homosexual agendas," as was introduced in another thread, this is what showed up. The INOOHR site had several of these manifestoes on one page which was easiest to link to. Do a google, you will find all this material on sites less "propagandistic."

I realize that some of these were written satirically, but I think that what some find objectionable is that such satire is not so funny to parents. I realize that some are "deranged," but this is what I found.

So, instead of continuing to attack me, why not add to the substance of the thread. I know that's too much too ask really, as I have a long history of dealing with the ultra-sensitive PC crowd and know the tactics all too well.

But, please do feel free to contribute to the academic quality of the thread.

[edit on 04/10/20 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep


Of which i refuted, unless of course you skipped over that. Even if God created us in his image, he would have undoubtably granted a pyschological and biological failsafe that contested any act of homosexuality; being that nature has manifested homosexual animals and homosexuality in man, it's clear to say that either God did not create man, or God simply #ed up.


You mean Jesus, oh which there is not historical evidence to conclude that such a man walked the face of this Earth....

I still want my answer.

Deep

You didnt refute it at all...you may have in your own mind.


Homosexual animals? Come on you can do better than that! Show me one MALE dog with a female in heat that woud rather have a male...just one.


As for Jesus, let me ask you this , show any historical evidence to conclude that such a man never walked the face of this Earth. YOu can find many writings form other than Christians that show Jesus os Galilee walked the earth and was real, even the Jews recognize this..

Originally posted by edsinger
Well when I hit puberty the same as you, I liked the female shapes, smells and yes giggles. You mean you right then knew at this same time? You days in the shower at school were spent looking in the shower? I dont believe that, something triggered your preference.

No, I never really was put in a situation where I had to shower with other people. But yes, when I hit puberty, the same way you were attracted towards females, I was attracted towards males.

It's highly arrogant to say that you were just 'naturally' straight, but then accuse me of lying when I say I was just 'naturally' gay. If it was not a choice for you, why would it be a choice for me?

Think about it, even if you do not believe in the God of Christianity, but if you believe in a Creator, then you would have to wonder why something was created that could not Pass the Genes of the species. It goes against nature.

Umm, guess what? There's alot more to this life than simply procreating. We have plenty of people on this earth, we as a species are growing at an alarming rate, how do you know that people were not created gay to help stem this growth? Actually that's what I personally believe in, that's why I will never have sex with a woman, or have a child with a women, even though I would like to. I believe I was created gay for a reason, and that reason probably is to NOT procreate. So I'm not gonna go against who I am just because I would like a child of my own. At best I'll adopt, or simply have to go without. But I won't be bringing a child of my own into this world, I know that much.

Originally posted by edsinger
Homosexual animals? Come on you can do better than that! Show me one MALE dog with a female in heat that woud rather have a male...just one.

How about two penguins instead? sfgate.com.../c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL

If you cared, you could find numerous articles pointing out 'unnatural' homosexuality in the 'natural' world. You go do the research and educate yourself, I already know better. Consider yourself corrected.

Thing is you do not see anything wrong with it and want all people to accept it as normal in which it is not.

Just because it's not normal for YOU does not mean it's normal for me. By the numbers, it's nor "normal" to be black, that doesn't mean it's wrong. Any number of human qualities could be used here.

I explained as best I could how you have warped Gods word

(1) I didn't warp God's word, because "God's word" is simply a text written by fellow humans. I believe in it as much as I do an Aesop's fable. You're the one warping his word. You're the one who is saying it's ok to do what "God's word" says it's not ok to do. Assuming everything you believe in is true, you will be the one that will have to answer for your own actions one day. I'd love to hear you try to explain to God how you were criticizing someone else for being sinful why justifying your own sins. Maybe God will let me in on that conversation before I get my one way ticket to hell, eh?

Look I admitted my sins, you havent. I recognize my sin, you dont. thats the difference.

Because I'm committing no sins. It's a sin in your mind, not mine.

[edit on 20-10-2004 by W_HAMILTON]

Edsinger:

Eloquent formulation, backed up with nothing. Homosexuality is a perversion to the natural order; a natural order that has dictated that the act of homosexuality is manifest in many animals and cannot be laid to reason that they are subject to choice, nor sinfull behaviour.

Homosexuality has not had a detrimental affect on society, nor do i see proof of this, only vernacular to Christian societies; which can be said to be deleterious to the rest of the world.

Anthropologicaly speaking, homosexuality is common in most societies the world over and has been accepted.

en.wikipedia.org...

Animal sexual behavior takes many different forms; even within the same species, researchers have drawn parallels between this and homosexuality, bisexuality, intersexuality and transgender behavior in humans. The presence of same-sex sexual behavior was not 'officially' observed on a large scale until recent times, possibly due to observational bias caused by social attitudes to same-sex sexual behavior. It appears to be widespread amongst birds, mammals and the apes. Some researchers believe it to have its origin in male social organization and social dominance, similar to the dominance traits shown in prison sexuality.

As for Jesus, let me ask you this , show any historical evidence to conclude that such a man never walked the face of this Earth. YOu can find many writings form other than Christians that show Jesus os Galilee walked the earth and was real, even the Jews recognize this..

You need to spend more time in the religion section of this forum. U2U Amadues, i'm sure he/she will fill you in.

Show me one MALE dog with a female in heat that woud rather have a male...just one.

Since when do Dogs have the ability to facilitate a consequentalist attitude, or if anything, a highly attuned sense of cognition seen only in humans...

Deep

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
So, instead of continuing to attack me, why not add to the substance of the thread.

Oh, I've added plenty of substance.

What questions are you asking then? You yourself admit many of those manifestoes represent either the extreme, or the comical. None of those are representative of gays as a whole.

If you are asking what rights I think gays should have, they should have any afforded to their heterosexual counterparts. That means the right to marry, the right to adopt -- whatever else that straight people accept as commonplace. I'm sure they had their bad seeds as does any grouping of people, but the far majority of gay people are not abnormal; they are not perverse, they are contributing, valued members of society and thus they should be treated as such.

Originally posted by edsinger
Well I guess we did and I will admit when I am wrong, I didnt know we sold nerve agents, I just thought blister agents...I was wrong.

No big deal, it's not like it's something you'll see in the government controlled mainstream media.

And also saddam was a threat to the US, in his support for world terrorism and thats enough for me.

Please, other than the blanket explaination that he supported terrorism, tell me how Saddam was a threat. The only terrorism he supported was against Israel, last I checked they had a pretty sizeable army, with all our technology, and, according to you, god told them they were allowed to kill. Why did they not sacrifice a thousand of their kids to take out Saddam, it was their fight. Saddam had no ties to Al Queda, even Cheney admitted that and said he never said there were ties (after claiming he did have ties to Al Queda several times, I guess if you call somebody else a flip-flopper enough, you become one yourself). If you recall, after 9/11 Saddam extended his sympathy (whatever that was worth) and even offered financial assistance, but Rudy basically invited him to f**k himself. So, in conclusion, Saddam was not a threat, unless you have info I don't and if so please share. Sorry, off thread, back to the gays living in sin topic.

Umm, guess what? There's alot more to this life than simply procreating. We have plenty of people on this earth, we as a species are growing at an alarming rate, how do you know that people were not created gay to help stem this growth? Actually that's what I personally believe in, that's why I will never have sex with a woman, or have a child with a women, even though I would like to. I believe I was created gay for a reason, and that reason probably is to NOT procreate. So I'm not gonna go against who I am just because I would like a child of my own. At best I'll adopt, or simply have to go without. But I won't be bringing a child of my own into this world, I know that much.

Humans have a dualistic nature: the pyschological (we are self-interested) and the biological (self-preservation). Pro-creation is just a byproduct of self-preservation; with the advent of cloning and overpopulation, we have no need to have children to sustain our current population.

Deep

OK straight men, here's a question for you, how many here have a problem with girl on girl action? I'm a straight man who loves to see two good looking women together, is that a sin? My girlfriend and I occasionally hook up with another girl, I guess that makes them sinners, right? (Even though they mostly do it for my benefit, and according to the bible women are supposed to serve men, so maybe they're not sinning )

You lucky bastard

I'm straight and single ! I love girl on girl action, how can you not !

Deep

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
As for KT, please don't tell me what to do. It is NOT a choice.

Same thing I said to edsinger. Did you choose to be straight Krazy Jethro?

I guess no one is ready.

But as for you Hamilton, fine, you can believe what you want, as I will, but it makes no real difference anyway as I was really siding more with you guys. I guess you didn't catch that much.

It was really more of a plea for both sides to stop being rediculous about these types of discussions. They seem to all end the same way with nothing but more contempt all around.

But as for the choice issue, it's really speculation either way. I don't know for sure if I am naturally straight as much as you don't know if it was a choice really. Choice is funny that way though, especially in the human mind. The considerable bulk of choices made in life are not made conciously, so it's really hard to say.

I did not sit down and think about being a thief (per se) or not, yet I am not through choice rather than by nature. I just don't want to steal, although I have had many chances.

While they are not completely congruent arguements, they do make the point well enough to say that no one really knows.

So please get off the horse bud. I am not here to fight you or be nasty. I say the same of straight people (including myself), so I don't know where the additude is coming from.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
You lucky bastard

I'm straight and single ! I love girl on girl action, how can you not !

Deep

You'd be surprised how many girls have those tendancies, especially when they drink, we've hooked up with a couple of her friends I never thought would do that. I guess most girls are just sinners, LOL! That sucks, there will be hardly any women in heaven, not sure if that's such a great place to be!

It's that vicious circle which we all share

Straight guys hit on gay girls
Gay girls hit on straight girls
Straight girls hit on gay guys
And gay guys hit on straight guys

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
But as for the choice issue, it's really speculation either way.

No, it's not speculation. The only people speculating on it are the people who have not experienced it.

And I've admitted as much. Whether I was created gay when I was born, or through something that triggered it when I was like 3 or 4, I have no idea. All I know is that either way, it is NOT a choice. I can't choose who I am attracted to. I assume you can't either. Being gay is something I simply cannot change. Hell, if I could, I probably would.

For all the people that think it's a choice, none of them have brought up any good reasons why someone would choose to be gay. It's "disgusting," most people don't accept you, you run the risk of your family disowning you, or your friends not speaking to you ... you have religious folks preaching how you are sinful and going to hell ... you have your government advocating laws to discriminate against you ... you may suffer harassment ... you have people out there who would kill you for being gay.

What a great benefits package you get when you "choose" to be gay huh?

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
It's that vicious circle which we all share

Straight guys hit on gay girls
Gay girls hit on straight girls
Straight girls hit on gay guys
And gay guys hit on straight guys

I guess people are just horny creatures. Some people feel the need to supress it and turn it into something negative, those are usually the people with the most skeletons in their closets. Those who celebrate it as natural (as long as it's done safely and responsibly) and not something to be afraid of live the most fulfilling lives, and usually do not harbor pent up emotions, those who let their feelings build up are more likely to harm themselves or others. Suppressing years of evolution and biological programming is not good for the body.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
How are we sinners? I want a praxeological discource on the disposition of man to sin; your constant redundant rambling that man is sinfull i nature is annoying now, nothing but empty words.

Those are not empty words.
Even though I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with being gay from a Christian point of view, I do agree that we are all sinners.

Proof? Just look around.
I am not only talking about wars and cruelty far away, I am talking about what you see in your street, your town, your land.
People are selfish, egocentric, and we rather please our own desires, than other peoples needs.

Why is there corruption everywhere? Why is there cheating everywhere? Why is the criminal behavior everywhere?
We all have it inside us, and in your case it may not be visible to us, but you're not going to fool me into thinking you are perfect.

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
It's "disgusting," most people don't accept you, you run the risk of your family disowning you, or your friends not speaking to you ... you have religious folks preaching how you are sinful and going to hell ... you have your government advocating laws to discriminate against you ... you may suffer harassment ... you have people out there who would kill you for being gay.
What a great benefits package you get when you "choose" to be gay huh?

Yep, there's really no good reason to choose being gay. I find it amazing that some ATSers can not get it into their narrow little heads, that being gay was and never will be a choice.

Hey you should read the "letter to louise" on www.godmademegay.com
That's the only valid Christian point of view on this subject.