Why Haven't You Enlisted?

...on the night of Feb. 24, 1969, went to the aid of besieged troops at Long Binh Army Base a few miles northeast of Saigon. It was John Levitow's 181st combat sortie.

www.medalofhonor.com...

I couldn't help but notice that this event happened on the day following my being wounded near An Hoa. That was during the Tet Offensive of 1969, which was almost completely ignored by the media, but was of equal, if not greater intensity.

I didn't mean to imply that the Air Force lacks courageous individuals, only to note that the Air Force is not as vulnerable during wartime as soldiers and Marines. This goes for the Navy, as well.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
I didn't mean to imply that the Air Force lacks courageous individuals, only to note that the Air Force is not as vulnerable during wartime as soldiers and Marines. This goes for the Navy, as well.

Just a reminder that the Marines are part of the Navy. I was a Naval Medical Corpman (Field Medic) assigned to the Marines during the Vietnam Era. I went were they went. Less not get into a pissing contest, too many feathers get riled! We all did what we had to do and I salute each and everyone that has worn the uniform in the past and who wear it today.


[edit on 21-12-2005 by WHOFLUNGGUM]

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
Just a reminder that the Marines are part of the Navy. I was a Naval Medical Corpman (Field Medic) assigned to the Marines during the Vietnam Era.

God bless devil docs. 'nuff said.

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM

Just a reminder that the Marines are part of the Navy. I was a Naval Medical Corpman (Field Medic) assigned to the Marines during the Vietnam Era. I went were they went. Less not get into a pissing contest, too many feathers get riled! We all did what we had to do and I salute each and everyone that has worn the uniform in the past and who wear it today.

We Marines love our Corpsmen (hell, we let them wear our uniform) and again, just because the vast majority of sailors in the last few wars have been less vulnerable to the dangers of combat doesn't mean that that is true for all. Certainly, FMF Corpsmen and SEALS go into harm's way and there are dangers involved in any form of sea duty.

I have watched the documentary of the fire aboard the USS Forrestal several times now and, in fact, I was in the hospital with one of the burn victims of that incident. I am always filled with awe at he courage of those who fought that blaze under such horrific conditions and that sailor who was further along in his recovery than me, was always so upbeat when he would come to visit. Maybe a little too upbeat for those of us still suffering.

I have to tell you that for a burn victim who has endured the hell of scrub treatment and has been moved from the third floor of Brooke General Army Hospital where that treatment takes place to the second floor which is the last stop before going home, is an act of incredible courage and selflessness in itself. The sounds and smells of that floor is hard enough for ordinary visitors, but nearly unbearable for anyone who is fresh from its horror.

So, my observation is not an indictment of any branch of the service. Not all Marines and soldiers are as vulnerable as others. Artillerymen, my MOS, are not as vulnerable as grunts, for example.

Artillery is dangerous work by its very nature and the enemy, especially in Vietnam were eager to get at us, but we are a well fortified, formidable, bastion of firepower. But, as my case points out no one is totally immune.

It might also be noted that I was transferred to Whiskey/1/13 because the half of the battery that was at Hai Van pass in December of 1968 was nearly wiped out when the enemy infiltrated their wire.

So, my hat is off to all members of all services and their veterans. Every serviceman's contribution is equal in its effect on the enemy. During Vietnam it was estimated that it took seven Marines to keep one Marine Infantryman in the field. No one exists in a vacuum. Every role is necessary or it would not exist.

And one more thing, the Marine Corps is not part of the Navy. The Marine Corps is a separate branch of the military under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Navy. That may seem a small distinction, but to Marines, who were, before before it was codified, treated like red-headed step-children, it is huge. Pick up a copy of Victor Krulak's little book First to Fight sometime. It's a quick, short read and should be enjoyable to any sailor, Marine, or history buff.


[edit on 2005/12/21 by GradyPhilpott]

I tried, several times and they wouldn't take me - medical problems.

That being said, whether or not one enlists has no bearing on their ability to be patriotic or supportive of the war effort. Any argument to the contrary is purely ridiculous.

Originally posted by kozmo
That being said, whether or not one enlists has no bearing on their ability to be patriotic or supportive of the war effort. Any argument to the contrary is purely ridiculous.

No rational person would make such an assertion. While enlistment is the most effective way for those who are young and fit, there are myriad ways for all of us to lend our support to the war effort. No one need feel ineffectual because of circumstances beyond his control.

I agree. I was unable to help by going there As I stated earlier so I joined a program thru a local radio staion where they send christmas cards to the troops. I volunteered my time and even bought a box of cards for local school kids to send over.
I might not like this war but I damn sure support our troops.
Course I didn't like the Viet war but I enlisted for that.

I did my time (Army,19kilo)..but when I enlisted,we were still in the 'cold war' with the Commies...

I hated the nightmares I got over nuclear holocaust (I still have them) and I wanted to kill those Russian SOB's...

But if I had to do it over again..I wouldnt enlist..I still dont see any 'real threat' to my homeland..

Originally posted by The Vagabond

Originally posted by Patriot36

and we still are expected to smile and support HIS cause for interferring with the affairs of another country that had nothing to do with the attack on 9/11.

In all fairness, "HIS" cause was approved by YOUR elected representatives in 2003, and it's not as if all the hoopla only came up AFTER the 2004 election in which America chose NOT to take control of congress away from the hawks. I'm don't even have to defend Iraq to counter your argument; if I were I might not be so willing to, but this particular line of "argument" (to give it a better name than it deserves) simply wreaks of disrespect for the democratic process. I'm the last one to call somebody unpatriotic for siezing their hard-won freedom to criticize the government, but I can dang
well call it intellectually dishonest to attempt disowning the decision of the majority without disowning the government and its protections.

I'm all out of "The Way Above Top Secret" awards for this month. If I had one more it would be to you Vagabond.

In this thread I feel you have made reasoned and good replies to some of the posts questioning why anyone should or should not volunteer for service to our country.

by Vagabond: Final answer: I'm not a huge fan of Bush these days, I reserve myself from unchecked opposition to the war in Iraq almost entirely because of strategic concerns which most parties to the debate never even consider, and I don't believe that civilians have a duty to participate in the volunteer military or to justify their choice not
to.

Unless I have misunderstood your argument, that a free society can only be free if:
Again, Vagabond, you said it beautifully in this post.
The Vagabond
posted on 12/19/2005 at 12:31 PM Post Number: 1870714 (post id: 1892607)

But that's the beauty of it. A free society can only survive if it deserves to. Our nation was built on the idea that the government is responsible to the people. Of the people, by the people, for the people. Service to the government should constitute service to ones self by virtue of one's membership in society. Failing to serve the yourself through service to the
government when it is needed is in effect a suicide attempt, though it can only be successful if embraced by a majority, or at least a near majority (a plurality perhaps). I believe in the right to commit suicide because I don't think a person who can't value life deserves to have it. If the majority of this nation elected to "commit suicide" in that way, then America would have the right, and in fact would deserve to die. But if the majority
chose otherwise, those who weren't willing to serve themselves by service to the government would owe it to everyone else and to themselves to either compromise their position if it was worthwhile to them, or leave.

In another post you did qualify that there was more than one way of serving our country and government.

by Vagabond: I do however believe that when one elects to advocate a given position that they ought to be able to support it strongly, that a warrior's sacrifice should never be demeaned, and that disownership is a different and more sinister creature than dissent.

I do want to thank the "warriors" who have posted to this thread and by their service to our country have also given the dissenters their choice to post their positions in this thread.

I salute the "warriors":
Grady, Seekerof, Vagabond, and WHOFLUNGGUM. I have probably missed listing others who have posted to this thread. Please accept my apology and thanks for your service.
I also thank the young men who have posted to this thread and will be serving our country in the near future.

As we pause to remember the losses and sacrifices of September 11, 2001, I am again led to wonder what our service-age citizens are considering as their contribution to the cause of freedom not only here at home, but for those around the world.

If you are of an age appropriate for military service and you have not volunteered to serve, I would, once again, ask, Why not?

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
[qoute]Why haven't you enlisted?

I do not wish to kill people, ever.

Why haven't you enlisted in the cause of liberty?

Because its a total crock, and I'm not going to die for aristocrat's drenched in oil screaming FREEDOM! Also I don't want to get up early and be screamed at every day and told how to eat, how to breathe and how to take a dump.

And the fact I'd hesitate on shooting someone; just like I told the relentless recruiters that use to call me once a week, I can't live with killing someone on my conscience. So I let the other blood thirsty people of the nation who have something to prove take my spot.

Killing is killing whether done for duty, profit, pleasure, or for fun.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
As we pause to remember the losses and sacrifices of September 11, 2001, I am again led to wonder what our service-age citizens are considering as their contribution to the cause of freedom not only here at home, but for those around the world.

If you are of an age appropriate for military service and you have not volunteered to serve, I would, once again, ask, Why not?

Because it's apparently easier to sit back and criticize everything than it is to put your # on the line and try to make a difference.

This generation -mine- has been marketed to their whole lives. Our heros and idols are sports stars and film moguls, rather than generals or presidents. Our defining moment was 9/11.

Different from the symbols of my father's day. Different administration, uses people for personal gain, for the most part anyway. I am unable to sympathize with people who pretend to know what it's like, because to me they have no business telling me what war is like. But at the same time, I can understand why they don't want to be used in this way.



[edit on 8-9-2006 by Astygia]

As we approach the anniversary of 9/11, that is a valid question. One that for my part is answered thusly, not through lack of effort on my part...when one is deaf on one side, and wears really, really thick glasses, it kinda curtails a career in the military. I tried twice...once Army, and once Air Force...my test scores were as good as it gets (ASVAB), but the physical things just didn't work out. My age now prohibits it, too. Being an Air Force brat, and surrounded as I am by ex-military, and not so ex-military, it was disappointing to say the least. But I do what I can, when I can, which is all anyone can do.

Originally posted by Lysergic
I do not wish to kill people, ever.

Have you considered that there are ways to serve your country, even in the military, that do not involve killing. Working in one of the medical fields would be an excellent way to serve by helping to save and rehabilitate lives.

I would also note that we have an interesting discussion over at Social Issues asking the question, What is an AMERICAN Patriot?


[edit on 2006/9/8 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by Lysergic
I do not wish to kill people, ever.

Have you considered that there are ways to serve your country, even in the military, that do not involve killing. Working in one of the medical fields would be an excellent way to serve by helping to save and rehabilitate lives.

that involves condoning the killers actions. why don't you just accept that pacificism is not a crime, nor unpatriotic, nor 'wrong'.
everyone 'serves' the country by living in it, and doing commerce with their neighbors.
if you really want to serve your country, people, get politically active so the people can have a voice against the big brother fascist onslaught on 'freedom'.
make others aware that there is a cabal of globalists running the world. it's like a big giant, real time game of 'RISK' to them.

p.s. grady....
my younger brother(half my age) took your advice, and now he's a paraplegic with a shattered esophagus and two missing neck vertebrae from a shot to the throat.
was he 'fighting for freedom'? he thought so.
i know he was fighting for the continued power of the american/british/jewish power pyramid empire, and 'they' don't give a flying fork about his sorry carcass, now.
record oil and bank profits since the war started.
yay.

Your brother made an extreme sacrifice so that those like you can live in relative comfort at minimal risk to themselves. You should devote the rest of your life to making your brother's life as comfortable and rewarding as possible. You owe him everything. You can tell him for me that I am deeply grateful for what he's done and that his life is worth more than the lives of a million slackers.

Originally posted by billybob
that involves condoning the killers actions.

This is not true. There are Christian, Muslim, and Jewish chaplains that do not condone the killing but are their to support their countrymen.

why don't you just accept that pacificism is not a crime, nor unpatriotic, nor 'wrong'.

Pacifism is not wrong, billybob, but it is a pipe dream. As long as there is more than one person in the world, there will be conflict.

everyone 'serves' the country by living in it, and doing commerce with their neighbors.
if you really want to serve your country, people, get politically active so the people can have a voice against the big brother fascist onslaught on 'freedom'.
make others aware that there is a cabal of globalists running the world. it's like a big giant, real time game of 'RISK' to them.

You are mostly correct here, but to become a politician is not the answer. Honesty only gets one so far in politics, at a certain point one has to 'play the game' to climb any higher, then you are no better than those we gripe about.

.
my younger brother(half my age) took your advice, and now he's a paraplegic with a shattered esophagus and two missing neck vertebrae from a shot to the throat.
was he 'fighting for freedom'? he thought so.
i know he was fighting for the continued power of the american/british/jewish power pyramid empire, and 'they' don't give a flying fork about his sorry carcass, now.
record oil and bank profits since the war started.
yay.

My sympathies to your brother. But they will be sending him a check for the rest of his life and paying his medical bills, as they do me. Was he Army? Perhaps I knew him.

I realize that money doesn't cure a situation like this, but it is the best they can do. The service takes care of their own, it is the politicians that abuse the military. I know words don't mean much about this sort of thing, but your brother is honorable, and again my deepest regrets as to his condition.

[edit on 8-9-2006 by Astygia]

Originally posted by Astygia

Pacifism is not wrong, billybob, but it is a pipe dream. As long as there is more than one person in the world, there will be conflict.

I think that pacifism is more like a state of mind. If everyone believes in it, would it not therefore be so?

Of course, it is getting every human on the same page that is the problem. To do that, we as a species would have to overcome a few things, such as pride, greed, hatred, and ignorance. Do you not think that these attributes are the true enemies?

As for me, I did not enlist because I do not believe in this war, not in the slightest. I would die for my country, as long as it was for the right cause. But then again, I guess the term "right" cause is subjective in itself.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Your brother made an extreme sacrifice so that those like you can live in relative comfort at minimal risk to themselves. You should devote the rest of your life to making your brother's life as comfortable and rewarding as possible. You owe him everything. You can tell him for me that I am deeply grateful for what he's done and that his life is worth more than the lives of a million slackers.

perhaps you should stop telling other people what to do.
i owe him squat.
perhaps, afghani women owe him something. maybe they can take care of him, as the sacrifice had nothing to do with canada, and everything to do with oil pipelines and the opium trade.
perhaps, the cia shouldn't have pumped the middle east full of fundamentalist muslim literature back during the afghani/soviet war. perhaps they shouldn't have trained all these zealot terrorists, and given them weapons.
perhaps most people can't see the forest for the trees.

canada is at war, now. first time since korea. thanks, 'representative government'.
we WERE respected worldwide as peacekeepers, before the burning bush (actually, he is a moron puppet, as anyone can see) of the apocalypse started his conflagration for oil/military complex profits.

47 % support for keeping troops in afghanistan(july 29th), ...down 10% since may.

if it wasn't for alberta, or 'usa north' as i like to call it, the majority would be even larger.
even the atlantic provinces don't like it, and that's where we get a great deal of our troops from.....

Atlantic Canada down to 44 per cent support from 69 per cent in May

perhaps, rather than cheerleading the 'war effort', i can berate the bastards who sent my brother to die for big business on the other side of the world.

Mouth, you are correct that if everyone believed in pacifism, it would be so. I would very much like that. But for everyone to overcome those less-than-desirable traits... I think we can agree that the odds of that happening are pretty slim at this point.

Regarding your choice not to enlist...When I enlisted, Clinton was still President (1999). I enlisted just to serve my country, and I do not regret doing so despite the things I've seen, which probably aren't as bad as what some of the vietnam vets on this board have been subject to. What I regret is the decadence and poor decisions in our current and past administrations which have lead us to where we are now. There is no dishonor in the fact that you didn't enlist...just a seperation between those that don't and those that do. Sort of like if you don't even vote, complaining about who got elected president. Hard to explain.