Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Did Jesus write these words himself? His gospel is not even in the Bible...imagine, the most pivotal character in the entire plot, and his story isn't even told from his own perspective, in his own hand.

This is the problem I have with declaring only partial truths from the Bible.

ARE there any whole truths in it?

edit on 27-7-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

He stated why He did not testify of Himself.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


I saw that friend, it was a HUGE u2u.

lol Sorry, something is on my mind.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Jesus Christ is the Phi Ratio Son of God

The Golden Proportion is analogous to God’s relationship to creation

The Golden Section, or Phi, found throughout nature, also applies in understanding the relationship of God to Creation. In the golden section, we see that there is only one way to divide a line so that its parts are in proportion to, or in the image of, the whole:

The ratio of the larger section (B) to the whole line (A) is the same as the ratio as the smaller section (C) to the large section (B):

Only “tri-viding” the whole preserves the relationship to the whole
And so it is with our understanding of God, that we are created in His image. Not by dividing the whole, but only by tri-viding the whole does each piece retain its unique relationship to the whole. Only here do we see three that are two that are one.

The Book of John begins with these words that capture the essence of this:

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

Jesus, in John 14:9, expressed a similar thought:

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.


Conclusion:

The human Jesus (the Son of Man) is to the divine Jesus (the Son of God) as the divine Jesus (the Son of God) is to God (the Father or whole).

www.goldennumber.net...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

Are gods mortal, or immortal? No one has a true definition for the term "god", except as a being that is worshipped. Is that all that's necessary to be called a god?

Depends upon the superstition. Some held the Creator gods as gods and they lived a long time compared to humans, yet were not immortal.

Some worship idols as gods, and I suppose rock idols get closer to immortal----since their image lingers.

It does appear in the human drama for that they call out as god, is just to sit something on a pedestal and worship it as special in some legend or fasion as supernatural or protective.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

Are gods mortal, or immortal? No one has a true definition for the term "god", except as a being that is worshipped. Is that all that's necessary to be called a god?

God, in Christian mystical terms, isn't a being or a creature or an entity, but the first/last cause (first father of creation) and the living spirit of truth and life who remains forever fully informed and self aware from age to age in eternity. For us as human beings made in the image and likeness of God, God is who and what we are becoming, although the eternal Godhead in his infinite mystery will always contain us and transcend us. Jesus seemed to relate himself to this eternal being within the context of a divine parent who's loving kindness extends from the Godhead through the son, as the will to love and even to be loved in turn. This might be thought of as an indespensible I-thou relationship WITH God whereby the highest frame of reference in terms of the fundamental relationship would be that of a heavenly household or simply put, a family, which would make of Jesus our elder brother.

Atheists and naysayers or detractors ought not assume that Christians worship some individual or particularized entity, or that by "worship" Jesus meant some form of grovelling, that's not the case at all.

So of course the spirit that informs life and is informed by it, as a first/last cause, as the Alpha and Omega of existence, is immortal. That the will or intentionality of such an infinitely mysterious being could be made manifest to us in human form, that's the wonder, how God was/is made transparent in and through the person of Jesus who's secret power resided in his humble obediance to the transcendant divine will, which is the will to love.

Everytime I read something you propose, it appears you are off on some serotonin trip and it is all about moving out of reality speak into some fantasy land that only you know.

I certainly don't support your fantasies.

reply to post by MagnumOpus

If you mean me, I can only be responsible for what I'm trying to communicate. If you don't "get it" that's fine, maybe someone else might appreciate it.

But I really wanted to clarify, that many many believers in God and in Jesus Christ, don't worship idols, but seek to enjoy communion with God, which is an intimate, participatory experience, best expressed, like Jesus in and through love, the love of God above all and (no less vital) neighbor as self.

I hate ignorance, but I love all people.

That said there is a LOT of ignorance when it comes to Christianity and what we deeply believe and understand at least some among us.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

Jesus also tells us we are in god and god in us. He reached atonement. We, have not.

He told us we are gods! I dont feel as though im god though... Just sayin what he said. :-)

John 10:34 just in case you wanna read the word.

edit on 27-7-2012 by MamaJ because: (no reason given)

I am not sure you are not already there both in mind and spirit

. I am not there in mind yeet since I am to annoyed with the conditioning/social structures/duality driven dogma that exists here.

Lol that was funny to read!!! Lol ahhhhhh i love it though!

Here is what I think....

Its all about perception!!!!

I know my kids as I have raised them so far on their journey from infancy to adulthood, so i know that i know them better than they know their self. Besides, im their mom so who else could know them any better than I?

I have a personal relationship with them. We are close!!!

With that said i can only tell you what I see from where I stand. My perception is different than their dads and whomever else they are close with.

I could fight with them, their dad, their siblings or whom ever over their likes, needs, wants and so on but why????

Its all about my opinion of them in regards to our personal relationship thus far.

Their dad knows them just as well but our opinion will be different based on our perception of experiences with them.

There is no room for going back and forth with one another as we all have a different view of Jesus based on our perception of experiences!!!!

Jesus wants us to love... We all agree with that.

Love does not argue.......

Love is acceptance!!!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I loved what you presented my friend!!!! I LOVED IT!!!

I enjoy finding God everywhere and so its no skin off my back if you care to explain Him through equations or physics or just plain ole geometry lol

God created it all so its no surprise we find symbols and numbers everywhere in everything..

reply to post by MamaJ

It's funny or intriguing how those are seeking go "ah ha!" and those who aren't or who've built an impenetrable wall against new revelation/understanding, according to their own preconceptions and even contemptuous bais prior to ANY further investigation, can't make heads or tail of any of it. To some of us, it makes perfect sense, and to others it's incomprehensible.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


It makes perfect sense if you don't think about it. And that's exactly what the Bible says, isn't it? "Lean not on your own understanding..." Care to find that particular line? You're so fond of quotes.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You're deflecting.. that's not a valid response to what I said and have presented for open-minded consideration.

Actually, if you DO think about it, what it says about man's stature and standing within the framework of an eternal, cosmic, evolutionary process is quite extraordinary. If you think about it, what it states in a nutshell, is that in Jesus Christ as the divine principal, personified or embodied, we are invited to take a place (seat) next to the eternal Godhead, and recieve an inheritance prepared for us from before the very foundation of the world. It's quite extraordinary, and real, not just feel good mind games by any means, but the invitation of the ages for a wedding reception/celebration, and what is meant by that, allegorically, is the union of the spirit of God and man, whereby the spirit and the Bride say "come, all who thirst, and freely drink the living water of eternal life."

reply to post by queenofangels_17


You're wasting your breath on me, because i read what Christ has said, what the prophets have also said, you will not find a convert here in me, because i have been shown too much, seen too much and been given too many revelations. Before i became a christian you might have had a chance, now you have none, i have been sealed to him.

You deny over and over again that Jesus did not claim to be God when he did, and not only did he, the jews understood him as making those claims himself which is why they tried to kill him several times before his crucifixtion. Do you think jews do not know their own language? So you think the jews just wanted to kill him for fun? These were not lawless people pharisees were experts in the law, they took their schooling so serious that they erected ridiculous fencelaws around the Torah just to prenvent anyone from getting near to breaking them.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by MamaJ

 

It's funny or intriguing how those are seeking go "ah ha!" and those who aren't or who've built an impenetrable wall against new revelation/understanding, according to their own preconceptions and even contemptuous bais prior to ANY further investigation, can't make heads or tail of any of it. To some of us, it makes perfect sense, and to others it's incomprehensible.

Everyone is different....

I happen to love the geometry god created... Lol

Love is all that matters.

reply to post by Deetermined

Well, that's not what Jesus said, so I doubt Lonewolf is going to listen to you.

I can't not believe in the one the prophets proclaimed. I have been told by alot of Muslim that Jesus wasn't the messiah when he came, but when he returns it will be as Messiah. Which is a blatant violation of Daniel 9. It is written that the Messiah must come before the second temple was destroyed, if he didn't come then, then he never will. Not only that but Isaiah makes a huge fuss over the Messiah's Deity. Isaiah 43 and 45 plainly states that the LORD is the Savior, but in the NT Jesus says he is the Savior. Now when you see 2 claiming to be the same Savior there can only be one logical conclusion, it's the same Savior and that Savior is God.

Who is the Good Shepherd? You can find references in the OT to the LORD being the Good Shepherd, yet in John 10 Jesus says it is him. Well, if it's Jesus then the Father is a liar, if it's the Father then Jesus is a liar unless both are correct and Jesus is God because he is the Same Savior. Case in point:

Disaster for the shepherds who lose and scatter the sheep of my pasture, Yahweh declares. This, therefore, is what Yahweh, God of Israel, says about the shepherds who shepherd my people, 'You have scattered my flock, you have driven them away and have not taken care of them. Right, I shall take care of you for your misdeeds, Yahweh declares! But the remnant of my flock I myself shall gather from all the countries where I have driven them, and bring them back to their folds; they will be fruitful and increase in numbers. For them I shall raise up shepherds to shepherd them and pasture them.
Jeremiah 23:1-4a

I shall assemble the whole of Jacob, I shall gather the remnant of Israel, I shall gather them together like sheep in an enclosure. And like a flock within the fold, they will bleat far away from anyone, their leader will break out first, then all break out through the gate and escape, with their king leading the way and with Yahweh at their head.
Micah 2:12-13

For the Lord Yahweh says this: 'Look, I myself shall take care of my flock and look after it. As a shepherd looks after his flock when he is with his scattered sheep, so shall I look after my sheep. [...] 'I shall raise up one shepherd, my servant David, and put him in charge of them to pasture them; he will pasture them and be their shepherd.'
Ezekiel 34:11-12 & 23

Now lets see:

John 10 :1-30

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

Jesus the Good Shepherd
7 Then Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who ever came before Me[a] are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep. 12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

The Shepherd Knows His Sheep
22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, “How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

edit on 27-7-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Jesus would not want us to argue. He would want us to love each other for our differences even if they are regarding him.

I also think Jesus does not care about anything other than our love for him.

We display our love for him by showing love to others... Unconditionally.

That his message!

If you love him, you prove it in your actions!!! Do you show others LOVE?

When you dont... In that moment you do not love him.

How does your love balance out?

Its hard to be loving all the time... True! Its tough for us here because we are bombarded by negative energy... So...

We try harder!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
b] 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Magnificent!

And his "voice" that's both the word and his character conjoined, at least in my experience. I hear him and I thank him for drawing me to him.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by MagnumOpus

 

If you mean me, I can only be responsible for what I'm trying to communicate. If you don't "get it" that's fine, maybe someone else might appreciate it.

But I really wanted to clarify, that many many believers in God and in Jesus Christ, don't worship idols, but seek to enjoy communion with God, which is an intimate, participatory experience, best expressed, like Jesus in and through love, the love of God above all and (no less vital) neighbor as self.

I hate ignorance, but I love all people.

That said there is a LOT of ignorance when it comes to Christianity and what we deeply believe and understand at least some among us.

Yes, I was speaking about you. If you could prove even a tenth of all this extravagant word game---it would be a miracle in itself. You do remind me of this, as well as all the other soapbox preachers

The Metallica song says "The empty can rattles the most." I find it interesting that the loudest christians are quite often the ones caught with their pants down, figuratively or or literally.

There is a difference between communicate and indoctrinate. And promotion of gods that were not such.

There are some honest ministers around that help people not get caught up in this endless mind game:

www.exminister.org...

I have found this far more personally gratifying than any conversions to Bible fundamentalism that I was responsible for when I was a preacher. I plan to continue my evangelical activities on behalf of skepticism and common sense as long as I possibly can.

Folks that really study the issues, find problems. Others love problems, and try to promote untruth, to perpetuate the problems. The minister above saw the problems, others remain intentionally blind and avoid the truth.

reply to post by mileysubet


Personally, I would not want to stop and chat with someone who not only doesn't love me, but denies my very existance.

Why would God want to stop and chat with someone like that?