Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

But what if a lie is what god needs to be told to the seekers who have not experianced gnosis? And just because the thing he is telling might be untrue do not mean he does not mean he lies. He might belive something is true that is false.

According to one book that was not included Jesus did not say the thruth about hell becuase it was counterproductive to humanitis spiritual evolution.

well you mean because Jesus is not experianced in gnosis or his audiences are not experianced in gnosis then God needs to describe something odd. for example the fire of hell or .. as symbol of punishment and so.
well none of us have seen the hell or heaven, but I can see the signs of God and believe in he. and I have no any other way to realize the metaphysics like heaven and hell just through the monotheistic religions.
and monotheistic religions all have approximately some similar describes of such concepts.
""""Hell is one, O my disciples, and in it the damned shall suffer punishment eternally. Yet has it seven rooms or regions, one deeper than the other, and he who goes to the deep shall suffer greater punishment. Yet my words [are] true concerning the sword of the angel Michael, for he that commits but one sin merits hell, and he that commits two sins merits two hells. Therefore in one hell the reprobates shall feel punishment as though they were in ten, or in a hundred or in a""" Barnabas chap 59 (Barnabas.net)
I can not worship a liar God or rely on a liar apostle not at all. moreover it is not important that wether there are 7 hells or 70 hells, there is a hell anyway !

Well here is a question. Did the Jews believe the messiah to be God? They obviously did not accept Christ in his first coming but did Christ fulfill the requirements to be the messiah? If we conclude that he indeed was the messiah and we conclude that the OT view of the messiah was that the messiah was God then it is rather open and shut. No need for conjecture with terms like "Christ consciousness" which implies that he was just a man endowed with a spirit or power from God.

Originally posted by maes9

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

But what if a lie is what god needs to be told to the seekers who have not experianced gnosis? And just because the thing he is telling might be untrue do not mean he does not mean he lies. He might belive something is true that is false.

According to one book that was not included Jesus did not say the thruth about hell becuase it was counterproductive to humanitis spiritual evolution.

well you mean because Jesus is not experianced in gnosis or his audiences are not experianced in gnosis then God needs to describe something odd. for example the fire of hell or .. as symbol of punishment and so.
well none of us have seen the hell or heaven, but I can see the signs of God and believe in he. and I have no any other way to realize the metaphysics like heaven and hell just through the monotheistic religions.
and monotheistic religions all have approximately some similar describes of such concepts.
""""Hell is one, O my disciples, and in it the damned shall suffer punishment eternally. Yet has it seven rooms or regions, one deeper than the other, and he who goes to the deep shall suffer greater punishment. Yet my words [are] true concerning the sword of the angel Michael, for he that commits but one sin merits hell, and he that commits two sins merits two hells. Therefore in one hell the reprobates shall feel punishment as though they were in ten, or in a hundred or in a""" Barnabas chap 59 (Barnabas.net)
I can not worship a liar God or rely on a liar apostle not at all. moreover it is not important that wether there are 7 hells or 70 hells, there is a hell anyway !

I think Jesus did go thru gnosis. All his audiences did probably not go thru gnosis. There is a lot of duality notions when you read the new testament that makes me the apostles do not understand what gnosis is or maybe it works differently in different people. If they have experianced it then I think they should have had other ways to make the message clearer and not be so duality driven in their writing.

I do not think god will ever lie to you directly, but the apostles will not be 100% thruthful because they will be influenced by their own ego/mind however much they try not to be. That seem to be the problem with having a human mind. But god will probably lie to you by omission/letting you belive lies if it suits his goal of getting you evolved and getting you to heaven. You are in the testing area and he cannot have you in heaven until he is sure you can handle being there if you are not on a mission.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Did the Jews believe the messiah to be God?

Malachi said Adonai would come and described him in a messianic way.
Apocalyptic type prophecies in the Old Testament described the coming of the Lord, so if you were to understand them in a messianic way, then God was coming on earth as a visitation, which Jesus attributed to himself while talking to the leaders of the temple in Jerusalem.
I think the beginning of the Gospel of Mark uses these prefigurements of a coming to apply to Jesus, thus making him some type of deity.
The situation presents a bit of a dilemma to supposed monotheists so they developed one solution which had a dual appearance with the Lord leaving once the more human type Messiah stayed around to administer the government.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
Well here is a question. Did the Jews believe the messiah to be God? They obviously did not accept Christ in his first coming but did Christ fulfill the requirements to be the messiah? If we conclude that he indeed was the messiah and we conclude that the OT view of the messiah was that the messiah was God then it is rather open and shut. No need for conjecture with terms like "Christ consciousness" which implies that he was just a man endowed with a spirit or power from God.

I loved your post because it was a very insightfull question. For me it does not matter if he is the messiah or not. If he is just a seed doing his duty/mission then it does not change the fact of what he did and I would be proud to call him my soulbrother. And it does seem that god is using the new testament to get the message across to people. But to be fair he is using other religious views both wellknown and lessknown also for instance buddism.

reply to post by maes9

Ok I see, I respect your views, and doctrines, I just threw out my Idea. but I do believe in God and Jesus so I am not an unbeliever.

Then I should not have said that.
I probably misunderstood your point.
When I see the word, prophet with the word, Jesus, then I get a sort of bad feeling that someone wants to turn Jesus into a non-deity, which I think is a mistake. I don't believe in apotheosis as being a proper goal for anyone, so a model of a fictional Jesus who was a man who became an immortal divine being from some sort of revelation seems anti-Christian to me. The Gospel of John does not attribute Jesus' knowledge as having been received as some sort of revelation, but as a memory of a prior existence as Son of God, and thus knowing the mind of God from a personal experiential relationship.
Anyway, your suggestion that somehow being a prophet made anyone immune to temptation would be disputed by the story of King Saul being numbered with the prophets, and we know he enraged the Lord, according to the OT story.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

Be nice to your soulbrothers. All is sooner or later called by god in their own way. But I agree with your prev post that yes some people should focus more and not play around with ego/sin.

Would you follow god if he appeared himself to you in a form or scripture if they where totaly at odds with each other? And sorry I am of no religion so I should probably not discuss new testament even if I find it very enlightning sometimes.

I feel a bit under pressure since I have only a limited attention span, and I try to focus what I have towards things I think are important, such as Jesus' church. Anyone who has already opted out, I don't feel a special compulsion to try to bring "into the fold" and am more concerned with the wolves tearing at the flesh of those wandering too close to the fence.
I have met God, or whatever people are allowed to meet in person as a manifestation of God, and I don't have a general mission statement but have some small bits of info about things concerning life and death and heaven and hell, and assume that God does not have a problem with biblical Christianity (otherwise I would have expected Him to have brought it up).

Jesus is the son of god.

Jesus is the son of man.

Jesus was Adam.

Jesus was Enoch

Jesus was Jeshua.

Jesus Is!

Jesus came to fulfill the law and in doing so he set the record straight for human kind with death/ressurection.

He will be coming back soon.... And when he does the death bill is wiped clean as his last incarnation did that. Meaning, materiality will be non existent. Reincarnation will then cease as there will be no more " death".

Thats truly what he died on the cross for... Not our sins but so we may have life without death in the earth plane. Sin was a way of describing missing the mark, or missing the goal whereas we set a goal, came to earth and either missed the mark... Or we hit it ... Bullseye! Obviously we all in here... In this thread....missed the mark in our last incarnation.

Death was needed at the time in the beginning. Death of loved ones and of the self requires one to not be attached to the material, rather the spiritual. When Jesus evolved to atonement his soul was no longer required to reincarnate. He will only be coming back to separate the good from evil. The evil doers will have their beginning all over again. Reincarnating like its going out of style! Lol

reply to post by MamaJ


Yes, you have to keep it simple, don't you? Because you don't understand anything else.

Comfort zones. What a waste.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I would think if folks craved sin and not Godliness they were never born again. That would seem like a red flag to me. And what is so wrong with placing one's complete trust in the promises declared in the Word of God?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I would think if folks craved sin and not Godliness they were never born again. That would seem like a red flag to me.

Does that idea make you feel happy somehow?

And what is so wrong with placing one's complete trust in the promises declared in the Word of God?

Those "promises" you are thinking of are strangely detached from mention of being born again. Considering that fact, don't you think it would be better to assume those sayings are not promises and were actually Jesus saying he was the one to save people and to believe in him (rather than someone else, or maybe themselves in the case of the Pharisees)?

reply to post by apushforenlightment

Thank you. You just from my point of view told me he is not caring about what religious views anyone have. He reads my heart and mind and can se both my ideals/weaknesses and struggles. If he saves babies that have no idea of religon then he saves all by judging ous by what we are in the spirit. You cannot have it both ways. Either he saves by what a person is or he saves on what belief you have. The parabale of sheep and goats prove that it is by what the man is.

No, babies and the mentally handicapped are incapable of understanding right from wrong, so they are exempt. You and the rest of us however, who are not infants nor mentally handicapped or impaired in any fashion are held accountable because we can learn right from wrong. To refuse his gift of salvation is wrong, babies cannot make that choice nor can the mentally impaired.

The parable of the goats and sheep are about Christ's believers and non believers. When he speaks of his brothers and sisters he is talking about his followers. The unrighteous are those who did nothing for his followers, persecuted them at every turn, and hated them. What you do to us, you do to him. This is what the parable of the goats and sheep in Matthew 25 speaks of. If you were merciful to his followers and kind, then he will grant you mercy for you extended that mercy and kindness to him by doing it to us. We (his followers) are in him and he is in us and we are one with eachother.

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
Well here is a question. Did the Jews believe the messiah to be God? They obviously did not accept Christ in his first coming but did Christ fulfill the requirements to be the messiah? If we conclude that he indeed was the messiah and we conclude that the OT view of the messiah was that the messiah was God then it is rather open and shut. No need for conjecture with terms like "Christ consciousness" which implies that he was just a man endowed with a spirit or power from God.

Daniel 9 states that Messiah had to come before the second temple was destroyed. If he didn't come then, he never will. The jews are holding onto a tradition that ends in death. This is also why muslim fail to understand Jesus already came as Messiah. They insult him by saying he is just a man. They too hold onto a tradition that ends in death.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by NihilistSanta
Well here is a question. Did the Jews believe the messiah to be God? They obviously did not accept Christ in his first coming but did Christ fulfill the requirements to be the messiah? If we conclude that he indeed was the messiah and we conclude that the OT view of the messiah was that the messiah was God then it is rather open and shut. No need for conjecture with terms like "Christ consciousness" which implies that he was just a man endowed with a spirit or power from God.

Daniel 9 states that Messiah had to come before the second temple was destroyed. If he didn't come then, he never will. The jews are holding onto a tradition that ends in death. This is also why muslim fail to understand Jesus already came as Messiah. They insult him by saying he is just a man. They too hold onto a tradition that ends in death.

Good point Lonewolf. It is extremely well backed in the bible that Christ is the messiah and the messiah is God. However people want to accept Jesus but they want to reject the bible. Kind of a paradox to me. How can you accept Christ yet reject the Bible when all your knowledge of Christ comes from the Bible?

Seems to me that rejecting the bible is rejecting Christ. I have stated it in other threads but all of the non-biblical conjecture I believe stems from a fear or paranoia that Satan's lies and delusions are so great that we can not trust anything even the word of God. Open the box of conjecture and it only leads to two places. Apotheosis or a down grade of Christ deity.

reply to post by NihilistSanta


That is true. You reject the gospel then u reject Jesus. Remeber in John it says Jesus is the word made flesh.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Good point Lonewolf. It is extremely well backed in the bible that Christ is the messiah and the messiah is God. However people want to accept Jesus but they want to reject the bible. Kind of a paradox to me. How can you accept Christ yet reject the Bible when all your knowledge of Christ comes from the Bible?

Seems to me that rejecting the bible is rejecting Christ. I have stated it in other threads but all of the non-biblical conjecture I believe stems from a fear or paranoia that Satan's lies and delusions are so great that we can not trust anything even the word of God. Open the box of conjecture and it only leads to two places. Apotheosis or a down grade of Christ deity.

Rejection of the bible is a rejection of him. If you don't believe what the book says about him then you don't believe in him, you can't mince words and think you can believe in him without the written word. He is the Word, both God and Word, the living scriptures. This is why muslim believe in a different Jesus. Their Jesus was never the Passover Lamb. Their Jesus will lead them to eternal damnation, this is why he is the Antichrist. You would think they would pick up the difference between our Jesus and theirs. Our Jesus brings peace for 1000 years, their Jesus brings peace for 7 years. Their Jesus is our Antichrist, our Jesus is their Antichrist. At what point will they stop and think about that?

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here are three promises from Jesus, tell me why I cannot place my trust in them:

1. All that the Father has given to Him will come to Him.
2. Anyone who comes to Him He will in no wise cast out.
3. It's the Father's will that He lose NONE that He had been given.

Why can I not place 100% of my trust in what He said?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The jews are holding onto a tradition that ends in death. This is also why muslim fail to understand Jesus already came as Messiah. They insult him by saying he is just a man.

The muslims also honor Jesus as the messiah.

BTW, just how is it an insult to Jesus by saying he is a man? The bible itself describes Jesus as a man.

In fact, you are insulting God by saying Jesus, a creation of God.... is God.

We all create our own heaven or hell. I hope you are all creating what you want.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

A Tree and Its Fruit

43 “No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44 Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of.

I will not judge any soulbrother or soulsister until I have seen the karmasheet.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Here are three promises from Jesus, tell me why I cannot place my trust in them:

1. All that the Father has given to Him will come to Him.
2. Anyone who comes to Him He will in no wise cast out.
3. It's the Father's will that He lose NONE that He had been given.

Why can I not place 100% of my trust in what He said?

No reason why you can not believe in those statements, it is just that they are promises of his qualifications as a savior.
Not sure why it is that you have a problem understanding it, unless you have been influenced by the "free grace" cult preachers, into believing in their interpretation that Jesus is by these sayings creating an unconditional salvation.
There has never been presented in the Bible the notion of an unconditional salvation and to the contrary has always taught a compliance with a divinely given standard of behavior.

1. those who want to approach God will be directed to come to Jesus first.
2. Jesus accepts all those who would come to him regardless of what that person's current status is, such as having physical infirmities and afflictions.
3. We can trust that God has given Jesus all the abilities necessary to save us and will not fail from any sort of lack on his part.

You apparently have been convinced by some preachers of the aforementioned group, that these sayings mean something else, such as:

1.God has pre-selected those who will be saved, and any inclination a would-be believer has toward Jesus is a sign that he is already saved and has no further responsibilities in this life whatsoever.
2. It really does not matter why or how anyone does approach Jesus, since those things will all be sorted out once they are in heaven and given incorruptible bodies.
3. Once a would-be believer actually gives any indication that if they were to believe in something, it would be Jesus rather than some other deity type entity, then Jesus is under obligation to keep "saving" that person until they are safely in heaven.

Jesus was struggling in a hostile environment, surrounded by impressive appearing people who firmly believed their way was the only way, and were not about to relinquish their hold on positions of power and influence to some upstart who was going to make their system irrelevant. So Jesus was convincing the people in opposition to that constant contradiction coming from the background whenever he attempted to preach to the people. He was saying he was the way, him, this single individual standing right there talking to them, and not some great imaginary figure they were expecting to appear in some sort of overwhelming irresistible grandeur.
Jesus was meek and mild and unobtrusive and forced no one to accept him who did not feel a calling from God and a divine spiritual assurance that he in fact was the one whey had hoped for, who would save them.