Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Every detail of the Passover foreshadowed Christ and His ultimate sacrifice.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by stupid girl

 

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Peace!

Riddle me this, if jews and christians have the same God as muslim do, why do muslim kill christians and jews? If Allah is the same as Yahweh why murder people who have the same God hm? Why does the Quran say:

'The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah)' of Sahih Muslim.
6981

Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: You will fight against the Jews and you will kill them until even a stone would say: Come here, Muslim, there is a Jew (hiding himself behind me) ; kill him.

Source


If there is no compulsion why was Muhammad murdering pagans, christians and jews who refused to convert hm? So lets see the 2 options are convert or die....sounds like compulsion to me.

You see where the problem is? You say one thing with your mouth, but your book calls you liar.




Matthew 24:9-14

9 “ Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

We're hated because Jesus is our God, because we know and believe him to be the Creator Yahweh by testimony of the prophets who are the mouthpieces of God. Guess what? The Gospel is being preached in the whole world today, we have satellites broadcasting it to every hole in the wall, and where satellites do not reach we send missionaries into. We're not in the Last Days, we're in the Last Hour of the Last Day.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Every detail of the Passover foreshadowed Christ and His ultimate sacrifice.

Well Jesus fulfilled every duty of the High Priest beginning about a week before. Four days before the crucifixtion he cleansed the temple and drove out the money changers. The high priest would get so thirsty because of the heat from the fires for the offerings, at the end he would be parched so he'd have to take a sip of wine so he could yell out "It is Finished!" just like Jesus had to take a sip if the wine vinegar to quench his parched throat to he could yell out "It is Finished!" on the cross before he died. The Seder meal where the Israelites (in Exodus 12) would eat the flesh of the lamb with bitter herbs and drink wine was a direct foreshadowing of the Last Supper where Jesus broke the bread and said "this is my body which has been broken for you, take and eat", the disciples were eating the "body of the lamb" as it were, the Bread of Life.

In modern times christians know these feasts by their prophetic fulfillments, they aren't being taught the foreshadowing events leading up to the future fulfillments which explains why many christians do not know they are really jews.

Rosh Hoshana (Feast of Trumpets)
Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement)
Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)

Anyone want to take a stab at which 3 prophetic events the dress rehearsals proclaim?

Originally posted by deadeyedick

These words spoken from the cross are certainly perplexing. How could Jesus be God and yet be forsaken by God? Martin Luther said it best "God forsaking God who can understand that?” I don’t know for certain, but here are a few thoughts that I have on this passage.

www.biblecenter.com... ossmygodwhyhaveyouforsakenme.htm
My thoughts on this subject mirror that of Martin Luther as stated above.
I will not deny the father,son, and definitely not the holy spirit because i believe that would lead me down a forsaken road to a wide gate.

Jesus emptied himself out of his Glory before he came here as a man, otherwise the romans would not have been able to kill him, they would have been destroyed in his presence. He used his body as the perfect Sacrificial Lamb. He did exactly what the prophets said he would do.

John 10:17-18

17 For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18 No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

He laid down his life of his own authority, and took it up again. This is the world of the dead, he laid down his life when he came here, he took it back up when he died on the cross and claimed his glorified body, this is what it means when he "set the captives free". Those who believe in him are resurrected from the dead. The spiritually dead and this is why he said:

Luke 9:57-62

57 As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 59 And He said to another, “ Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61 Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62 But Jesus said to him, “ No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Luke 9:62 ties directly into Matthew 10:34-39

Matthew 10:34-39

34 “ Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “ He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

If you go back to your old ways and traditions of men, and not keep going forward you're not fit for his kingdom and this ties into Jeremiah 7.

Jeremiah 7:24 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and in the stubbornness of their evil heart, and went backward and not forward.

Moral of the story, go forward into the living, go forward and not backward to the dead.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Genesis 22 and Exodus 12 were foreshadows of Christ being crucified.

In a vague sort of way, but that was not what you said earlier, that they were prophecies.

Christianity is mirroring judaism.

I would say, no, they are not "mirroring" but went on divergent courses from the time of Christ.

The jewish feastdays were dress rehearsals to be fulfilled by Christ.

More like they served as convenient backdrops for Jesus to act out to make certain points.

Passover and Shavuot (Pentecost) were already fulfilled by him, theres 3 left to go. Rosh Hoshana, Yom Kippur and Sukkot which are still to come and occur in the tribulation period.

These are not "prophecies" to be "fulfilled". The corresponding concepts built into those celebrations have already been utilized.

Just as the Israelites Shavuot occured 50 days after Passover, so to did Pentecost occur 50 days after Christ's crucifiction.

You may believe that happened, probably from Acts, which I do not take as actual history but more a parable that made use of things already known, making nice little connections like that for the "wow" factor.

So you really didn't know christinianity is linked to judaism and the Feast days of Yahweh?

It isn't. The stories in the Gospels may, but that has nothing to do with the church. If Judaism was somehow "ok", then there would have been no reason for the church.

Everything that happened to their church happened to ours right down to the apostacies.

Huh? No, we did not go through the Red Sea, but were baptized. They aren't the "same thing". One has a fuzzy sort of correspondence with a few aspects of the other.

The jewish church when Christ began his ministry was stuck in the Laodician church age, and we're there right now. We're mirroring them step by step.

No, that doesn't even make sense and why would you want any of that stuff to be true anyway?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Riddle me this, if jews and christians have the same God as muslim do, why do muslim kill christians and jews? If Allah is the same as Yahweh why murder people who have the same God hm? Why does the Quran say:

Consider the LRA (Kony) militia which is a christian group and the witch burning christians in third world regions of Africa. Can I take the worst examples of christianity and ask "if chrisitanity teaches one to turn the other cheek, why are these christians doing these horrible things?"

a)The killings are always the result of a political conflict.
and/or
b)The killings take place in some backward third world country and are carried out by hot headed fanatics, with little or no education.

My point is, do not look at these events in isolation and make a blanket statement... rather, factor in the poverty and lack of education in those regions.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

The Seder meal where the Israelites (in Exodus 12) would eat the flesh of the lamb with bitter herbs and drink wine was a direct foreshadowing of the Last Supper where Jesus broke the bread and said "this is my body which has been broken for you, take and eat", the disciples were eating the "body of the lamb" as it were, the Bread of Life.

The Last Supper was not a Seder, remember Jesus was executed before Passover.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Trumpets: rapture of the bride
Atonement: Daniel's 70th week
Tabernacles: 1000 year reign of the King

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

In Isaiah Yahweh is the Savior, the name above all names

Where does it say Yahweh is the "name above all names"?

In Philipians 2 Jesus holds the name above all names, the Savior.

In a lot of the manuscripts, it leaves off the article, so it says "name above all names" which is more a position as Lord rather than an actual proper name.
In Isaiah 45:23 it is saying God is the only god, and in Philippians 2:9 it is talking about Jesus being the cosmic lord. These two passages are not so much emphasizing the "savior" aspect of these two persons, so much as they being the only one there who can help us (as compared to, for example, false gods).

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Seder meal where the Israelites (in Exodus 12) would eat the flesh of the lamb with bitter herbs and drink wine was a direct foreshadowing of the Last Supper where Jesus broke the bread and said "this is my body which has been broken for you, take and eat", the disciples were eating the "body of the lamb" as it were, the Bread of Life.

The Last Supper was not a Seder, remember Jesus was executed before Passover.

Consumption of the Lamb (bread) and the wine (blood) was done at the last supper, before his crucifiction. This was a symbolism for the event about to unfold although today it should be done on Passover because the lamb and wine were consumed with bitter herbs on Passover. So we see the symbolism in the jewish Feast of Passover within the Last Supper. In the Last Supper we have the bread (Lamb) the wine (blood) and the sorrow (bitter herb) the disciples were to consume symbolized in like manner as Passover.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


You will never understand the Holy Qur'an, lonewolf because of your hard heart, God has cursed you for being obstinate and for rejecting the Truth even if you recognize it as you would recognize your own son.

ALLAH is indeed, the God of the Jews and the God of the Christians. His ways never change, killing of disbelievers and fighting in His way is encumbent upon all believers.

9:111 Lo! Allah hath bought from the believers their lives and their wealth because the Garden will be theirs: they shall fight in the way of Allah and shall slay and be slain. It is a promise which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Quran. Who fulfilleth His covenant better than Allah? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph.

Your Jesus, however is not the same Jesus in the Torah and Qur'an. Since Jesus is not Yahweh, and the Jesus in the Qur'an is a worshipper of Allah, and so are his disciples. The Prophet Muhammad said that the Christians after Jesus will split into 72 groups.. one group will enter Paradise and 71 groups will enter Hell. The One group are those who followed the true teachings of Jesus while he was alive, and the others are the apostates. Which group do you belong, lonewolf?

3:51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. ( Jesus talking to his disciples as mentioned in the Holy Qur'an)

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say : Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said : O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evildoers there will be no helpers.

Jesus said for evildoers there will be no helpers. Ascribing partners to Allah is the only sin that will not be forgiven. You think Jesus will ascribe himself as partner to Allah?

17:57 Those unto whom they cry to seek the way of approach to their Lord, which of them shall be the nearest; they hope for His mercy and they fear His doom. Lo! the doom of thy Lord is to be shunned.


As for you, lonewolf, if you were a true Christian I will have no fight with you, but as it is you are misleading a lot of people by claiming Jesus is God and calling yourself a Christian when you are NOT following the teachings of Jesus. If Jesus is Yahweh as you claimed, then the whole Testament will be full of attestation proclaiming, " I, Jesus am Yahweh, and there is no god but Me. My lord be glorified! Jesus will never ever claim something that he was not. Everything that he did while he was in his ministry is by permission of Allah. He CANNOT do anything without Allah's permission. Assuredly he cannot even create a single fly! So how dare you call him Yahweh!

22:73 O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are both the seeker and the sought! -

ALLAH, there is no god save Him. What good is your pride, lonewolf when all that it will do for you is bring you to Hell?

37:35 For when it was said unto them, There is no god save Allah, they were scornful

28:71 Say: Have ye thought, if Allah made night everlasting for you till the Day of Resurrection, who is a God beside Allah who could bring you light? Will ye not then hear?

7:179 Already have We urged unto Hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful. -

9:109 Is he who founded his building upon duty to Allah and His good pleasure better; or he who founded his building on the brink of a crumbling, overhanging precipice so that it toppled with him into the fire of Hell? Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Your "Allah" is satan, Heylel. Muhammad is a false prophet who is now in the confines of hell. (Eternal judgment be upon him). YHVH is the Father and His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. There is no other Name under heaven by which man can be saved. He is the Way to Father, and no other. He is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Muhammad encountered a jinn in the cave. He was a lying, murdering pedophile who died by eating a poisoned goat. If anyone follows Muhammad they will join him in the lake of fire.

Redemption of man is only offered through the blood of God's only begotten Son, Jesus of Nazareth, the Alpha and Omega.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

Religion shows how to worship God, it unites man's social life with his worship of the Almighty God.

Let's focus right there. You're right, it shows how to worship. Thing is, spirituality is not specifically worship. Spirituality is a connection. Religion teaches us to find it outside of us, spirituality teaches us that it's actually INSIDE of us.

Finding an outside invisible bearded man in the sky makes it easier to worship, that's all.

God has shown us how to worship Him, through the Prophets and Messengers whom He sent. The physical act and spiritual act blends together when a believer bows down to pray, with his heart and soul as He talks to His Creator. Jesus prays while bowing down with his face on the floor, just as did Moses and Abraham and the past generations of believers. The Jews used to pray like the Muslims with their foreheads touching the ground, this is how God has taught His people to worship Him.

5:55 Your friend can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poor due, and bow down in prayer.

19:59 Now there hath succeeded them a later generation who have ruined worship and have followed lusts. But they will meet deception.

6:125 And whomsoever it is Allah's will to guide, He expandeth his bosom unto the Surrender, and whomsoever it is His will to send astray, He maketh his bosom close and narrow as if he were engaged in sheer ascent. Thus Allah layeth ignominy upon those who believe not.

When we close our eyes to pray, we do not need to imagine a bearded man in the sky as you put it. We are not idolaters who cannot worship without an image in front of their eyes. Our God is a spirit and we worship him in spirit with our body in the act of worship that is acceptable to Him.

Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Why do you think quoting the Gnostic and non-canonical Gospel of Thomas is going to make headway with Christians? That passage is classic Gnostic dualism, the perfection of the spiritual and the evil nature of the material. Christ would never have said that.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Jesus is God in the flesh.

God whose name is Jesus had to fulfill the prophecy of the old testament.

It is hard for man to wrap the concept up in their finite minds, but you are three in one

you are a son or a daughter, you could be a mother or a father, you are a person.

all three can be used to describe you and yet you have a name that identifies just you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


That's what you want to believe, Notur... but that doesn't make it true.

2:15 Whoso is wont to think through envy that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter and is enraged at the thought of his victory, let him stretch a rope up to the roof of his dwelling, and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth! -

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Why do you think quoting the Gnostic and non-canonical Gospel of Thomas is going to make headway with Christians? That passage is classic Gnostic dualism, the perfection of the spiritual and the evil nature of the material. Christ would never have said that.

I suppose for the same reason she believes quoting the Koran will lend validity to her argument against Christians.
While, on the other hand, I quote the Bible to lend authority to my argument against Islam.

I do not believe the Koran, she does not believe the Bible.....regardless of her insistence otherwise. If she truly believed the Bible, then she would know the Truth and she would be free from the yoke of the deception of Islam.
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28-30)

Islam is a clever deception indeed, as it has only served to pit God's people against each other since its inception.
Jesus stated himself that the last true prophet was John the Baptist:
"For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John." (Matthew 11:13)

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

However, Islam believes that Jesus was a mere prophet. If this were true, then Jesus would have been negating His authority as such by making the above statements.

Therefore, Jesus can not be a prophet because He said that John the Baptist was the last true prophet.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Why do you think quoting the Gnostic and non-canonical Gospel of Thomas is going to make headway with Christians? That passage is classic Gnostic dualism, the perfection of the spiritual and the evil nature of the material. Christ would never have said that.

That is exactly what he said... Jesus spoke in parables, but those with heavy hearts will never understand them until you spell it out to them.

If you believe only canonical gospels which Jesus never spoke, then you will never know nor will you have any idea of what the real Jesus said.

When you find the interpretation, maybe you will have an idea.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Most of the New Testament letters written by the Apostles were written to refute Gnostic heresies that had already begun to creep their way into the Gospel message as given by Christ.

Jesus personally chose His apostles, being already aware of their capabilities of maintaining the integrity of His original Gospel message.

I am not saying that there are not nuggets of wisdom that can be gleaned from extra-canonical writings, but those few pearls of Truth are buried in beaches of deceit. There is a reason that those books were not included in the canon, and it wasn't without rigorous examination otherwise.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Why do you think quoting the Gnostic and non-canonical Gospel of Thomas is going to make headway with Christians? That passage is classic Gnostic dualism, the perfection of the spiritual and the evil nature of the material. Christ would never have said that.

That is exactly what he said... Jesus spoke in parables, but those with heavy hearts will never understand them until you spell it out to them.

If you believe only canonical gospels which Jesus never spoke, then you will never know nor will you have any idea of what the real Jesus said.

When you find the interpretation, maybe you will have an idea.

I know full well what it says, because I've studied the Gnostics a lot. Let me spell it out for you:

If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder.

Evil flesh, coming into being through means of perfected spirit? That's wild!

But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders.

Perfect spirit, coming into being through evil flesh? That's just ridiculous!

Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty.

It is amazing, indeed, that perfect spirit can be found residing in these corrupt material forms.

Those are all Gnostic views, completely contrary to Jewish and Christian beliefs, so, no, Jesus would never have said them.