Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

reply to post by adjensen


1 John 5:7

7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:14

14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

Yes but his judgement is Gods because He is God. God has referred to himself in the plural before like in Genesis 1:26 so it would be natural for him to talk to God and for God to tell him things.

You are assuming that Jesus is God.
But Jesus never directly says that he is God. Instead Jesus himself prayed to God and taught others to direct their prayers to God.

John 5:30 which I posted earlier is just ONE of many such verses that contradict the claim that Jesus is God. There are many more.

Also Genesis 1:26 does not establish that it was Jesus. Its a very popular verse used as "evidence" for the trinity. Just because it says "let US make" does not automatically mean it was Jesus. God could have also been speaking to the angels.

No god was from my point of view speaking to themselves. But if the angels are part of the "themselves"/god then yes. One part of god was speaking to another part of god. It becomes hard to write english when a plural of parts is in fact as a singular entity. It is like cells that can speak to each other being part of the same body. One whole several parts working in perfect harmony controlled by their common thoughts working for the good of all things.

reply to post by scmoG

Nothing to say, or add to the thread but quotes from your book? You cannot prove a point with a book so convoluted and confusing. Have you even looked into the authors?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

. . . for nonbiblical scholars who have never bothered to read the Holy Bible, this is a way to allow those who do not understand who Yeshua is . . .

Problem with this statement is there is no way to find out about a person by that name in the Bible since you cannot find it there.
The Bible talks about someone named Jesus, and it also says those who do not believe in that name cannot be saved.
So, right from the get-go, you are leading people off a cliff, straight into Hell.

edit on 26-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

If you belive in duality written junk created by unenlightened humans that say you need to say Jesus name to get home and not just be in spirit as he wanted. Would he give up on me if my mind was not able to understand how to speak his name if I was not born with the ability to think that well. How dare they describe him as such an egocentered person that will not help just becuase they want their conditioning scripture to be right and not his sense of mercy. I will think the nicest thoughts about him and hope he lives up to not being duality driven as some of his followers seem to be.

Or if you are refearing to Christ Conciousness/gnosis then I would answer differently. Hell is from my point being disconnected from god grace/oneness.

reply to post by autowrench


Why all the negativity?
Why not just try and give an answer to the op instead of bashing.
Any answer at all is better than derailing especially if it is in the form of scripture.

There are many languages that express a words meaning. Each interpret a word differently, in their own right.

Words grouped together can be chaotic.... With perception being different in each person.

It can cause conflicts.

It can cause peace.

Once a word is understood by all it brings truth to the core.

Jesus is the Truth.... The vibration that brings the spoken word to light!

reply to post by deadeyedick

Why all the negativity?
Why not just try and give an answer to the op instead of bashing.

Nothing of a bashing nature, I simply called the poster out for posing not one thing but bible quotes. No personal content, no intelligent theories or thoughts.....just quotes. Don't you see a problem with this? I believe the OP question was:
"Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?"
This calls for intelligent answers, not quotes from a book a great many do not believe in.

No arguments please because I will not argue theology.

Moses supposedly wrote that God made man in His image and after His likeness. My understanding of that is that God has a celestial image and that image is called the Word. The essence of God is total spirit which is called His likeness. So then my understanding of God is that God has a celestial image (Word) and a celestial spiritual essence (Likeness).

When God made this world He made it from the terrestrial (earthly) substance. In other words it was not made of celestial substance. Whatever that is. As god made man, He made man from this terrestrial substance and man lay as a lifeless terrestrial clod upon this earth. That is man's image. Meaning a recognizable form. Then God breathed a portion of His spirit into the man and man became a living spiritual likeness of God. Thereafter man had a earthly image with a celestial likeness.

God has a celestial image and a celestial likeness. No one knows exactly what celestial (spiritual) is. God then
caused (brought forth) a portion of Himself into His very own creation called woman. The woman conceived this portion of God into her earthly body to produce a male child whom we call Jesus. As this child was born He was the begotten child (son) of God. God was this child's Father and not of any created man. This is why we call Him the Begotten Son of God.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was not God but was the begotten son of God.as is clearly shown here in John 20[17--

AS Jesus then ascends to the celestial realm, He once again takes His first estate as the image (Word) of God. Jesus no longer exists as the man Jesus and shall never again exist as the man of flesh. He now reside as total celestial substance known as The Word of God.

As the Christ shall one day return to this earth to gather His souls, He appears as The Word of God and not the flesh or name of Jesus.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

That is condensed as much as I can do but is my understanding of who God is. God is spirit and no one understands the celestial realm that I am aware of. Therefore God is unknowable except through the teachings of the begotten son called Jesus.

Originally posted by deadeyedick
The theme of the bible tells us that Jesus is the son of Yahweh.
The scriptures in the op show that Jesus is more than just a son to Yahweh.
To me this just strengthens the trinity and shows ways that link the father to the son.
The holy spirit is here now to guide us to the son thru him we seek the father.
I would have to say that the Holy spirit is Yahweh as much as Jesus is Yahweh.

As much as Jesus is the same Holy Spirit that comes and dwells in us with the Father. The theme i see is that the two are inseperable. It's interesting how we see Daniel give us a description of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7, and in Revelation 1 we have a similar description of Jesus looking like the Ancient of Days, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (John 1:1 "in the beginning was the Word...").

reply to post by apushforenlightment

If you belive in duality written junk created by unenlightened humans that say you need to say Jesus name to get home and not just be in spirit as he wanted. Would he give up on me if my mind was not able to understand how to speak his name if I was not born with the ability to think that well. How dare they describe him as such an egocentered person that will not help just becuase they want their conditioning scripture to be right and not his sense of mercy. I will think the nicest thoughts about him and hope he lives up to not being duality driven as some of his followers seem to be.

Scripture is scripture, you can believe it or not, i don't care either way. What you do is not on me. We do not say you have to say his name to get home, just believe in him. He reads hearts and minds. Do you think he would damn a mute man who couldn't say his name? Or an elderly person too weak at the edge of death, who wishes to acknowledge him? Do you think he damns babies who cannot acknowledge him who die in the womb, or are aborted, or who die from some other malady? The answer is no, he is a just and righteous God, full of mercy, compassion and grace. The first time he came was to save, not destroy.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by deadeyedick
The theme of the bible tells us that Jesus is the son of Yahweh.
The scriptures in the op show that Jesus is more than just a son to Yahweh.
To me this just strengthens the trinity and shows ways that link the father to the son.
The holy spirit is here now to guide us to the son thru him we seek the father.
I would have to say that the Holy spirit is Yahweh as much as Jesus is Yahweh.

As much as Jesus is the same Holy Spirit that comes and dwells in us with the Father. The theme i see is that the two are inseperable. It's interesting how we see Daniel give us a description of the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7, and in Revelation 1 we have a similar description of Jesus looking like the Ancient of Days, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End (John 1:1 "in the beginning was the Word...").

You are saying Jesus is the alpha and omega (a part of the whole that is everything that exists) and still do not belive in the nodual reality of god but belive it is duality driven? And the holy spirit is christ conciousness/gnosis (understanding what god is and your relation to him at the right moment) and it is working overtime to fix everything and have done it even before Jesus walked this earth.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

Jesus is stating that as God, come in the flesh, all He did was in accord with the Father.

Jesus also said he was doing Gods will and not his own... and that he cant do anything on his own, thereby establishing that God, the One who sent him was higher.

That even though he was a free/independent agent of God and was God as part of the unity of the trinity that his will was never in opposition to Gods or his own.

"was God as part of the unity of the trinity "

The trinity is exactly what I am questioning.
Jesus who does the will of God, and not his.... cannot be God, as part of the trinity.

Also refer to John 13:16
no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

The Father is higher than Jesus? Not what scripture says.

Philipians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The name that is above every name is none other than the name God holds for himself, and Jesus holds this name. Do you know why Jesus said the Father was higher than him? Because in context of scripture Christ was in human form, which was a humiliation and he suffered greater humilation at the hands of others so that scripture could be fulfilled.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by apushforenlightment

 

If you belive in duality written junk created by unenlightened humans that say you need to say Jesus name to get home and not just be in spirit as he wanted. Would he give up on me if my mind was not able to understand how to speak his name if I was not born with the ability to think that well. How dare they describe him as such an egocentered person that will not help just becuase they want their conditioning scripture to be right and not his sense of mercy. I will think the nicest thoughts about him and hope he lives up to not being duality driven as some of his followers seem to be.

Scripture is scripture, you can believe it or not, i don't care either way. What you do is not on me. We do not say you have to say his name to get home, just believe in him. He reads hearts and minds. Do you think he would damn a mute man who couldn't say his name? Or an elderly person too weak at the edge of death, who wishes to acknowledge him? Do you think he damns babies who cannot acknowledge him who die in the womb, or are aborted, or who die from some other malady? The answer is no, he is a just and righteous God, full of mercy, compassion and grace. The first time he came was to save, not destroy.

Thank you. You just from my point of view told me he is not caring about what religious views anyone have. He reads my heart and mind and can se both my ideals/weaknesses and struggles. If he saves babies that have no idea of religon then he saves all by judging ous by what we are in the spirit. You cannot have it both ways. Either he saves by what a person is or he saves on what belief you have. The parabale of sheep and goats prove that it is by what the man is.

Originally posted by mileysubet
Well without "quoting" from the book of fairy tails, I would have to say neither one exists due to the fact that I have never seen either one of them...

Does this mean you do not believe in wind and air as well?

Jesus was the son of God not God.

If he were God then why would he say these things while on the cross?

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

Originally posted by buster2010
Jesus was the son of God not God.

If he were God then why would he say these things while on the cross?

"Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."

Because He is the Son, not the Father. He added humanity to His divinity at the incarnation.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

To me, jesus was a human being that was enlightened far beyond the average human being. His knowledge brought him closer to god than everyone else.

What this guy said. ^

When Jesus says, "When you see me, you have seen the father", he means that you have seen the ESSENCE of the father, and what the father stands for.

This literalism is entirely out of control.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

How dare they describe him as such an egocentered person that will not help just becuase they want their conditioning scripture to be right and not his sense of mercy. I will think the nicest thoughts about him and hope he lives up to not being duality driven as some of his followers seem to be.

It seems that all the documented knowledge of Jesus we have today is based directly or indirectly from the New Testament.
Considering that, I don't see the legitimacy of taking the attitude of second guessing the authors of the NT as to how we should consider the importance of the actual historical person, Jesus, or the importance of the belief in that person rather than some idealized person that is basically the fabrication of your own imagination.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

He added humanity to His divinity at the incarnation.

Is this your own doctrine you just made up?
I do not recall having read anything like that in the Bible.
My understanding of the event is that Jesus was the same person as the former person who was of a god nature (with God, in heaven) but had emptied himself of divinity. He was later given the spirit of god from God at the baptism, sufficient for all purposes that would be necessary to carry out the mission he was tasked to. Upon completion of that phase of his work, he ascended to be given more god powers, or "divinity" to be the Lord of his church, from heaven.
I think you have a Christology influenced by the "free grace" cult where they believe a human being could never actually be righteous, so hold Jesus up as being a god incapable of ever being tempted to sin (in direct contradiction to the teaching of the New Testament).

reply to post by jmdewey60


As I understand it (if I may) Jesus was body, containing essence of the Source (holy ghost) and thinking with the mind of "God" (higher consciousness or Christ Consciousness). In this sense, he was all three, temporarily combined within one person. This is not a natural shape or condition to be in for planet Earth, and that's probably why he sacrificed himself, because he didn't belong. However, he chose to come so as to restore karmic balance and give us a few lessons. Still, the exact nature and proportions of his "divinity" are confusing, so let's give it another look. I might be able to help with this.

To make it clearer, let's put sugar-water and strawberries in a Tupperware container. The strawberries (Higher Consciousness) give understanding and awareness to the sugar-water, flavoring it. When it comes time to garnish or add to dishes, you pour some of that syrup out, just as Jesus did when applying his cosmic abilities. You fill it with more sugar-water from the sink, or "cosmic ether", and repeat. And when it comes time to REALLY enjoy that combination, you take the strawberries out too.

But see, the strawberries are not the Tupperware, and the sugar-water is not the Tupperware, nor is it the strawberries, although the strawberries BOOST the "power" of the sugar-water by adding flavor and decadence to it. The Tupperware is merely a vessel, and when the vessel is ready, it pours its sweetness into other things to bring them closer to "perfection".

The Tupperware is Jesus, the sugar-water is Spirit, and the strawberries which lent so much goodness is "God", or Higher Consciousness. That's really the best example I have right now, so I hope that helps some of you.