Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

There is plenty in the bible that clearly show that Jesus was NOT God.


I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.
-John 5:30


Here is a breakdown of the verse...

I can do nothing on my own = Jesus was an ordinary human being.

I judge as God tells me = Jesus was taking orders from a separate entity.

I carry out the will of the one who sent me, = Jesus was 'sent' , and therefore cannot be the same as the one who sent him.

not my own will. = Jesus placed Gods will above his own.


So, how can you possibly think Jesus does as God tells him and YET be God?

Jesus is stating that as God, come in the flesh, all He did was in accord with the Father.
That even though he was a free/independent agent of God and was God as part of the unity of the trinity that his will was never in opposition to Gods or his own. The Jews were saying they worshiped God the father, and his reply was saying that as the Son (messiah) his will could never violate the fathers as they were one and the same.

Here are some OT and NT passages to support the Idea that only God can Judge.

James 4:12 -There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Ecc 3:17 -God will judge both the righteous man and the wicked man," for a time for every matter and for every deed is there

1 Samuel 16:7 -But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Jesus is stating that as God, come in the flesh, all He did was in accord with the Father.

Jesus also said he was doing Gods will and not his own... and that he cant do anything on his own, thereby establishing that God, the One who sent him was higher.

That even though he was a free/independent agent of God and was God as part of the unity of the trinity that his will was never in opposition to Gods or his own.

"was God as part of the unity of the trinity "

The trinity is exactly what I am questioning.
Jesus who does the will of God, and not his.... cannot be God, as part of the trinity.

Also refer to John 13:16
no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Here are some OT and NT passages to support the Idea that only God can Judge.

Yes, and Jesus says he judges as God tells him to.
So it is God who is making the real judgement and Jesus is simply carrying out orders.

Its like a court judge giving authority to a subordinate to carry out judgement.
The subordinate is simply following orders... but the real power lies with the judge.
Will you say that the subordinate is part of the judge, or that the subordinate is himself a judge because of the power given to him by a higher authority?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The point is that the Jews question him saying they worship the Father. Kind of like "how can we do your will or worship you if we worship the father?". He is saying for them not to worry because he can not cross the fathers will because he is the father. Because he is part of the trinity which is also the father. So being of the trinity he is one of the distinct yet whole parts of God.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NihilistSanta

 

Here are some OT and NT passages to support the Idea that only God can Judge.

Yes, and Jesus says he judges as God tells him to.
So it is God who is making the real judgement and Jesus is simply carrying out orders.

Its like a court judge giving authority to a subordinate to carry out judgement.
The subordinate is simply following orders... but the real power lies with the judge.
Will you say that the subordinate is part of the judge, or that the subordinate is himself a judge because of the power given to him by a higher authority?

Yes but his judgement is Gods because He is God. God has referred to himself in the plural before like in Genesis 1:26 so it would be natural for him to talk to God and for God to tell him things.

I understand it is hard to grasp but the analogy with the arm works well from the OP. Only think of it more like in terms of an internal monologue with your conscience perhaps.

reply to post by NihilistSanta

Yes but his judgement is Gods because He is God. God has referred to himself in the plural before like in Genesis 1:26 so it would be natural for him to talk to God and for God to tell him things.

You are assuming that Jesus is God.
But Jesus never directly says that he is God. Instead Jesus himself prayed to God and taught others to direct their prayers to God.

John 5:30 which I posted earlier is just ONE of many such verses that contradict the claim that Jesus is God. There are many more.

Also Genesis 1:26 does not establish that it was Jesus. Its a very popular verse used as "evidence" for the trinity. Just because it says "let US make" does not automatically mean it was Jesus. God could have also been speaking to the angels.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

. . . for nonbiblical scholars who have never bothered to read the Holy Bible, this is a way to allow those who do not understand who Yeshua is . . .

Problem with this statement is there is no way to find out about a person by that name in the Bible since you cannot find it there.
The Bible talks about someone named Jesus, and it also says those who do not believe in that name cannot be saved.
So, right from the get-go, you are leading people off a cliff, straight into Hell.

The theme of the bible tells us that Jesus is the son of Yahweh.
The scriptures in the op show that Jesus is more than just a son to Yahweh.
To me this just strengthens the trinity and shows ways that link the father to the son.
The holy spirit is here now to guide us to the son thru him we seek the father.
I would have to say that the Holy spirit is Yahweh as much as Jesus is Yahweh.

reply to post by deadeyedick

The theme of the bible tells us that Jesus is the son of Yahweh.

There isn't a verse that actually says that in the Bible.
The New Testament talks about a god named God, but never mentions a god by that name (the one that you just mentioned).
What people take to be a name (from the Old Testament), is actually a description of the god that the angel who appeared to Moses said he represented, the Existing One, as opposed to things not god.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think he said i am who i am.
yhwh

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yeshua translated to english means Jesus and it is found everywhere in the bible.
It means to rescue or save.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

. . . for nonbiblical scholars who have never bothered to read the Holy Bible, this is a way to allow those who do not understand who Yeshua is . . .

Problem with this statement is there is no way to find out about a person by that name in the Bible since you cannot find it there.
The Bible talks about someone named Jesus, and it also says those who do not believe in that name cannot be saved.
So, right from the get-go, you are leading people off a cliff, straight into Hell.

edit on 26-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

"That name." It's always a problem, that Jesus. Yes, I find "Jesus" in my Bibles too, but let's think outside the box. In Jesus' own time, do you suppose His name was pronounced as we pronounce it today? Is our salvation based on correct pronunciation? Correct spelling? Do we use the Hebrew, Greek, or English spelling? For that matter, the letter "J" is a fairly late development in the history of the alphabet, so that every "J" word in your or my Bible once began with an "I." Happily, salvation is by the blood of Yeshua, Iesous, or Jesus, and not based on linguistic orthodoxy. If we're going to Hell [Are you meaning the Grave or the fictional Hell of Dante?] over word or name usage, we're all in a LOT of trouble.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


To answer your question.. yes.

Who is Jesus? Son of God or God

Jesus is God.

God the Father.
God the Son.
God the Holy Spirit.

The VAST majority of Christians believe in the Holy Trinity.
That would include the apostles and the church fathers.

God from God .. Light from Light .. true God from true God.
One in being with the Father.

John 1:1 ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" - says Jesus

Early Church Fathers on The Holy Trinity
Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Hippolytus

reply to post by FlyersFan

John 1:1 ... In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Word came first, did he not? Do you agree with "in the beginning was the Word"?.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Yes, and Jesus says he judges as God tells him to.
So it is God who is making the real judgement and Jesus is simply carrying out orders.

Its like a court judge giving authority to a subordinate to carry out judgement.
The subordinate is simply following orders... but the real power lies with the judge.
Will you say that the subordinate is part of the judge, or that the subordinate is himself a judge because of the power given to him by a higher authority?

Even by that rationale, there is nothing indicating Jesus could not also be God.

Jesus says that He judges as God tells Him to. He is God. How is this contradictory?
He is merely acting in accordance to His own authority.

My mind says that is is not good for me to touch the fire, thus my arm is subject to my mind.
Yet my arm is part of me.
But it is controlled by my mind.
My mind is greater than my arm in the sense that without my mind, my arm would not be able to function. However, my arm is an essential part of me being able to function as a whole.

You would be able to see the Truth of this, if you had not already set yourself against it.

Originally posted by chadderson
Some people are born with the ability to be enormously muscular. Some people are born with genes that keep them thin for their entire lives. Some people are born with yada yada yada... Jesus was an anomaly, a savant, a 1 in a bajillion occurance.. but he was not god. He was simply born with a gift that others do not possess. It is not impossible for others to posses it, but only he had what he had, and to this day nobody has been able to replicate that inherent connection that he did.

He shared his knowledge through is actions and following his heart, aka the truth, and his reason for living was to touch the lives of others so they may also find peace of mind and assurance of a god themselves. Can others also feel that they may be here to help others? I can say i am happy with my life, to the point of not being 'needy', but to do what jesus did and die for what he believed in, that is another story and that takes next to pure courage and heart to pull off.

EDIT: But i think that is the age we are entering as humanity. The ability to follow our hearts and our beliefs that flow out of love itself, and would be willing to die before we picked up a gun and killed someone that is unable to see the truth themselves. It is within the capacity to forgive others for not being able to see truth... after all we are living in a society that is manipulated by people who want to control, control, control.

edit on 25-7-2012 by chadderson because: (no reason given)

From my point of view he was not born with all of it but he was born with the potential. He had a toped out amagydala fear reaction that gave him an instant opened crown chakra. God does that when he needs the spirit to wake up so you get Christ conciousness/Gnosis. He was a person that experianced gnosis and got the Oneness with god and taught noduality and love for you brother and sister since you are all part of the same thing. He was trying to get other people to experiance the Oneness.

In the Oneness the difference between being part of the whole and the whole can become hard to keep apart. Jesus was both the message and the messager in one. He was a perfect messanger for that time but he still showed imperfections from my point of view and that is what made him perfect. And I thank him for that. It makes me feel happy that even he had a problem in this duality unenlightened existance.

If Jesus can be angry at the dualitydriven goats then we should I not be when they refuse to wake up.

Nobody said it was easy.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

. . . for nonbiblical scholars who have never bothered to read the Holy Bible, this is a way to allow those who do not understand who Yeshua is . . .

Problem with this statement is there is no way to find out about a person by that name in the Bible since you cannot find it there.
The Bible talks about someone named Jesus, and it also says those who do not believe in that name cannot be saved.
So, right from the get-go, you are leading people off a cliff, straight into Hell.

edit on 26-7-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

"That name." It's always a problem, that Jesus. Yes, I find "Jesus" in my Bibles too, but let's think outside the box. In Jesus' own time, do you suppose His name was pronounced as we pronounce it today? Is our salvation based on correct pronunciation? Correct spelling? Do we use the Hebrew, Greek, or English spelling? For that matter, the letter "J" is a fairly late development in the history of the alphabet, so that every "J" word in your or my Bible once began with an "I." Happily, salvation is by the blood of Yeshua, Iesous, or Jesus, and not based on linguistic orthodoxy. If we're going to Hell [Are you meaning the Grave or the fictional Hell of Dante?] over word or name usage, we're all in a LOT of trouble.

edit on 26-7-2012 by Lazarus Short because: lah-de-dah

True that.
It's the faith the person places in the name, rather than how they pronounce it.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Jesus also said he was doing Gods will and not his own... and that he cant do anything on his own, thereby establishing that God, the One who sent him was higher.

Are you sure?

John 10:17-18

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

John 2:19-22

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Originally posted by mileysubet

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by mileysubet
You would think that a "god" with omnipresent powers would be able to stop by for a chat every once and and a while right?

I would think that someone who thought it all to be "fairy tales" would find better uses for their time then trolling forum threads

If my opinion is considered "trolling" then so be it. No skin off my back, but what ever man, keep on keeping on.

But here in reality, why would a omnipresent god not be able to "speak" directly to its "subjects", does this not raise a red flag to you? 2000 years and no one has seen this so called god? why would it do that? to what purpose?

It really makes no sense what so ever.

edit on 25-7-2012 by mileysubet because: (no reason given)

Lol. Have you ever experiance synchronicity or played around with chakras? Maybe the ego is in the way so you can not hear him calling. Proof is always only for the one/ones that is experiancing it. You must seek to find or have an increadable need. People get answers every day. You are in between. The testing area. There are reasons why the charade is being kept. The seed wakes up one by one. There seem to be a lot of them around nowdays.

Phil collins - In the air tonight


And I can feel it coming in the air tonight, oh lord
Ive been waiting for this moment for all my life, oh lord
I can feel it in the air tonight, oh lord, oh lord
And Ive been waiting for this moment all my life, oh lord, oh lord

Well I remember, I remember dont worry
How could I ever forget, its the first time, the last time we ever met
But I know the reason why you keep your silence up, no you dont fool me
The hurt doesnt show; but the pain still grows
Its no stranger to you or me