Christian upbringing? (me, too) Recently born again? Let's talk!

reply to post by Deetermined


Predestination, eh? And he made us this way just so he could watch half the world burn, right? Instead of being loving and fixing us so no one would have to suffer. Why do it wrong if you can do it right?

Again: it's a trap.

reply to post by Deetermined

What part has science proven to be incorrect about the Bible?

Well, evolution springs to mind. Although I am actually very much influenced by the "Ancient Aliens" theory. It makes more sense to me. We are vastly different from the other "primates"....they also have opposable thumbs. But they don't have a mostly hairless body (in terms of all-over body hair).....and they don't have a discernable-to-us language. We alone have the head-hair growing thing, and (presumably) the awareness of imminent death. Do animals also realize they are going to die?

I believe that probably Elephants and Dolphins/Whales are more advanced than we are.

The more I learn about them, the more I realize that we are not the most "evolved" creature on this planet. But science HAS proven evolution, and the billions of years of Earth's existence, and the timeline.

reply to post by wildtimes


Evolution is as full of holes as Christianity.

reply to post by Deetermined

As a spiritual person, you have or have not come to the realization that not all is as it seems and not all of it is made up of logic? There's more out there than what we can see or make sense out of.

As for the "Big Kahuna" having to be held to some kind of human standard, I think humans might have their priorities a little bit backward, but if you're going to require proof instead of faith, you'll get it, it just might take longer...or not based on current signs/prophecies coming to light!

Backward? I do believe we will all know eventually.....current signs/prophecies are no different than they've ever been.

Obviously not all is at it seems....and not all is made up of logic. I freely admit there are forces, dimensions, and other "realities" about which we are only guessing.

The wrathful, jealous "God" of the Bible is a jerk, in my opinion. I believe there is a Higher Power, and I believe in Love and Laughter as the great unifiers. I just don't think modern "Christianity" is anywhere near actually "getting it."

reply to post by wildtimes

The Christian mystic has the love and laughter you speak of, and so did Jesus, even got the last laugh at the devil's expense, a real first rate comedian he was and still is based on my experience.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Predestination, eh? And he made us this way just so he could watch half the world burn, right? Instead of being loving and fixing us so no one would have to suffer. Why do it wrong if you can do it right?

Again: it's a trap.

It's not a trap. God made everyone perfect. It was up to us to exercise our free will to decide whether or not to follow him or follow Satan. I've already told you that he never planned on forcing people to believe in him or follow him. He wants people to seek him out and choose to follow him in order to have a personal relationship with him.

We have the ability to do it right. That's another reason why God sent Jesus. To show us it was possible. Just because we chose not to follow Jesus' example isn't God's fault. The only ones who have proven that they can't seem to do anything right is man, and it's by choice, believe it or not.

reply to post by Deetermined

God made everyone perfect.

Perfection means nothing left to be desired. If he made us perfect, then he would desire nothing from us but our presence. Furthermore, he would not need to cast us into fiery pits for all of eternity. That simple act of preparation, that statement of willingness, says that we are flawed, and that he will destroy all who do not fight their "flaws".

And how do we fight our flaws? By worshipping the one who gave us those flaws. How ironic, yes? A little too convenient of a solution to the madness. No, it is not right. It is a cruel game, and he's given us no choice but to play. These are the gladiator games, and we must fight, or burn.

What god drops its creations into such a set-up? A cruel, vindictive one. No, "God" did not make us perfect, and intentionally so. A perfect creation cannot be used as a toy. But an imperfection...an imperfect creation is perfectly expendable. And that's what we are, yes? Expendable. Otherwise, there would be no hell. He would not dare to cast aside our souls.

Why are we expendable? ATSers, ask yourselves that. Why would a loving god make us expendable?

That's another reason why God sent Jesus. To show us it was possible.

And also to show us how difficult it would be. To show us that if we did not go through Hell in the afterlife, we would go through Hell on Earth. It's a lose-lose game. The gladiator game. Either resist your instincts and natural impulses, or you will suffer an unimaginable fate after the curtains close on you. Destroy your own nature, or "God" will destroy you. That is the unconditional love we are shown. That is our gift.

Enjoy it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You are asking good questions and are already seeking him out. You'll get your answers, just please retain a certain degree of open-mindedness and willingness, because God in his infinite wisdom will fill you in and show you how the paradox of a trap was resolved. I believe in the final analysis, if you remain open to all possibilities, that the answer when it comes will make you laugh for joy.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

The Christian mystic has the love and laughter you speak of, and so did Jesus, even got the last laugh at the devil's expense, a real first rate comedian he was and still is based on my experience.

I agree with you on some levels, NewAgeMan!
I still don't, though, and at this point ever will believe, that there is a "devil." There is just us. And if we don't work together to correct the wrongs that are rampant, we will all perish.

reply to post by wildtimes

"The strong man was bound" could mean many things and Jesus was operating at many different levels.

It's best not to believe in the devil though, especially if you're a Christian!

Part of the "problem" of Christianity is that to be curative or to render a treatment/solution, it has to contend with the devil within, directly and to the core, which is something so utterly personal, it's embarassing!

Plus our pride and professed "knowledge" (which is the root of all our ignorance), it's not too happy either with something that makes so much sense while confounding us both at the same time, so we'd rather rebel against it for fear that if we accepted it, we might go insane (into sanity).

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Why are we expendable? ATSers, ask yourselves that. Why would a loving god make us expendable?

That's another reason why God sent Jesus. To show us it was possible.

And also to show us how difficult it would be. To show us that if we did not go through Hell in the afterlife, we would go through Hell on Earth. It's a lose-lose game. The gladiator game. Either resist your instincts and natural impulses, or you will suffer an unimaginable fate after the curtains close on you. Destroy your own nature, or "God" will destroy you. That is the unconditional love we are shown. That is our gift.

Seems more of a bomb than a gift, to me.

It needs to be a win-win situation. Not an "I'm rich and you're poor" situation. Not "I rule and you burn for eternity". I agree with you After...but, go softly. Softly.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

"The strong man was bound" could mean many things and Jesus was operating at many different levels.

I'm not sure if you're mocking me or what. But yes, Jesus was operating at many different levels...that I agree with. And in my interpretation of what he supposedly was teaching.....we are all One with the Divine. Love your neighbor as yourself.

I just don't see why there needs to be 38,000+ different interpretations of it. It's very simple.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Perfection means nothing left to be desired. If he made us perfect, then he would desire nothing from us but our presence.

Hey, a lot of you are the ones that claim that you want the freedom to think freely. So, God allowed you to.

Furthermore, he would not need to cast us into fiery pits for all of eternity. That simple act of preparation, that statement of willingness, says that we are flawed, and that he will destroy all who do not fight their "flaws".

Anything that's ever lived on earth has had to fight for it's survival.

And how do we fight our flaws? By worshipping the one who gave us those flaws. How ironic, yes? A little too convenient of a solution to the madness.

No, we fight our flaws by following and worshiping the only one who's capable of saving us from ourselves.

No, it is not right. It is a cruel game, and he's given us no choice but to play. These are the gladiator games, and we must fight, or burn.

It's a test where you get to choose who you want to follow and be like.

What god drops its creations into such a set-up? A cruel, vindictive one.

What can I say? Angels were created in perfection and lived in perfection with God until some of them decided that fighting for God's throne was more important than living in an already perfect existence.

reply to post by Deetermined

Hey, a lot of you are the ones that claim that you want the freedom to think freely. So, God allowed you to.

Dee, I appreciate your acknowledgement of this. We are allowed to "think freely." And I believe that is one of the gifts with which we are endowed.

So, why would he (He...whatever)....want us to set that aside and just follow this rule book? I've never, ever, just "accepted" the "rules".... Ever. It's not in my nature to do so. Why did "God" make me, then? So I could flounder? Or so I could present some alternatives to the world? There is just too much about "Christianity" sects that mutate the real message...as they are today, I see that they have been corrupted and are no longer teaching his message (if he even existed).

reply to post by Deetermined

Hey, a lot of you are the ones that claim that you want the freedom to think freely. So, God allowed you to.

Heaven and hell...there is no choice. Pain and no pain. What choice is there? Follow your God-given impulses and desires and be punished, or resist every human urge that you were granted by the creator, and be rewarded with meeting the guy who put you through it. Nice.

Anything that's ever lived on earth has had to fight for it's survival.

But not everything faces a choice between damnation and salvation. Hell, I wanna be a cat now.

No, we fight our flaws by following and worshiping the only one who's capable of saving us from ourselves.

There's the issue. Save us from ourselves...BUT HE'S THE FATHER OF OUR FAULTS.

It's a test where you get to choose who you want to follow and be like.

Why test something that is perfect?

What can I say? Angels were created in perfection and lived in perfection with God until some of them decided that fighting for God's throne was more important than living in an already perfect existence.

Lucifer decided he wanted to be like God. God, despite being perfect, is far too jealous to share what he has, so he casts Lucifer out. That's like the President firing the VP because he learns the VP plans to run for office next year.

Originally posted by wildtimes
It's very simple.

Indeed it is. Love God (self aware everthing alrady always ie: ground of all being and becoming, spirit of the universe etc.) above all and neighbor as self.

The problem people are having is with the insurance policy Jesus set up as a standard of his love.

It's like the simplicity on the far side of complexity, but it's SO complex this side of the simple, that it's just too much to "compute".

I myself am a pretty smart guy and I've spend countless hours, and a few dark nights of the soul trying to figure it out!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Exactly. "Unconditional" does not mean "rules and restrictions may apply". Yet in this case, they appear to be one and the same. In my eyes, that isn't right.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

Exactly. "Unconditional" does not mean "rules and restrictions may apply".

Agreed. Therefore, it applies to everone, no matter what they believe. That said, the only way to take full advantage of it, as a free gift of grace, is to freely appropriate it, or open the gift, only to discover that it's our best and truest self, and our happy self, who has no will to sin, except maybe a little bit according to our sexual instincts, yet "harnessed" within the marriage union.

Re: Harnessed - to use a horse analogy, there is always a bit in the mouth ie: leadership, so the question then it who's got the reigns and in what direction are we being led..? Oh we're captain of our ships, to a degree, but we, the egoic self, are not the highest power either. So the choice remains. Choose life, and hey it's free!

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I think that on a very basic, common denominator level, you and I agree, NewAgeMan.

reply to post by wildtimes

Yeah I think so. Maybe you'd even like my POV of a non-particularized, cosmological Christ ie: not exclusive, but all-INclusive. I believe it's the real gospel message, and there's no hell or devil in it anywhere to be found!