Christian upbringing? (me, too) Recently born again? Let's talk!

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

And how would someone who has never read the Holy Bible know what we are about?

I've read it about as well as many people have read Twilight. Some things just can't be tolerated from cover to cover. But I find this amusing, coming from someone who is Christian, yet calls the Bible a "damn book". Shall I paste it?

There again you're forming your own opinion without knowing anything about it.

And yet you've still not proven me wrong in the vast majority of my sentiments.

Sheol wasn't created for humans, but you don't know that because you haven't read the book.

Let's have the SparkNotes version:

While the Old Testament writings describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE-70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas evolved: in some texts, Sheol is the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone.[4] When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BC the word "Hades" (underworld) was substituted for Sheol, and this is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.[5]

^ Courtesy of Wikipedia. Now explain to me, how does the "Word of God" have so many definitions for something that is not only relatively "clear" in today's society, but also appears to be entirely wrong in the modern context?

I don't loathe myself, i love myself enough to want a relationship with he who created me, with Yeshua and YHWH, the one who died to redeem me to himself.

You have to redeem yourself to him, because he made you wrong. He created the problem, and blames you for it. Do I have that right?

reply to post by Deetermined

I can see where people would be confused about this since Jesus did make physical appearances in his heavenly body, but I don't think his earthly body would have been capable of appearing and disappearing at will along with walking through doors.

Teleportation and phasing. Pretty easy when you have the Infinite Gate unlocked.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Well, if you read the link on how and why Jesus was arrested, it explains how it was all done around the rule of law itself. They didn't even use lawful tactics to arrest him. In other words, they broke the law trying to find a way to convict him.

As far as Jesus being a mystic, I recommend comparing it against the Bible, but if you consider all texts to be hearsay, then I guess there's no point in that and you're left up to your own devices to try and figure it out.

As far as the Bible not being readable for all, this wasn't some error on God's part. He insisted that people be believers before they would be capable of understanding it.

reply to post by Deetermined

He insisted that people be believers before they would be capable of understanding it.

So basically, they believed it before they even read it?

Isn't that kind of cheating? Oh wait, we're talking God here...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Let me ask this another way. Has man improved mankind's mindset in a way that brings us all together, without just the task of entertaining ourselves or finding ways to live longer?

Let me put this another way. How does promising unconditional love, and then setting apart thousands of people by labeling them as demonic, even though they hurt no one, and then encouraging followers of this faith that says to love thy neighbor as thyself to persecute and judge these people, how does that bring mankind together?

The Bible values unity, yet teaches division. It lectures love, yet instructs on destruction. It shows us love, and makes examples out of chaos. The Bible is a contradiction.

LOL! All this coming from a person that INSISTS that we have to have two sides to every coin in order for there to be balance!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity


Opposing established doctrine is bucking authority. Remember how many times he and his disciples were told to shut up?

Again, rebellion. See how your logic has been warped by your inability to handle the fears of chaos?

Go back and read how the arrests and trials of Jesus were handled. No laws were broken. We're talking social disobedience versus civil disobedience and I do believe there is a big difference.

reply to post by Deetermined

LOL! All this coming from a person that INSISTS that we have to have two sides to every coin in order for there to be balance!

Indeed. See, I have no problem with duality in order to keep the balance. I do have a problem with self-serving hypocrisy, especially when it takes the form of instruction that can easily destroy the world.

reply to post by Deetermined


Religion was law in those times. Social disobedience today was both back then. If you displeased authorities, you broke the law. Simple.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

He insisted that people be believers before they would be capable of understanding it.

So basically, they believed it before they even read it?

Isn't that kind of cheating? Oh wait, we're talking God here...

First of all, during the time of Jesus, they had to be believers before they could understand what he was actually saying to them. This is why they call it speaking in parables.

Now we have scripture and it works the same way.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Indeed.

See, I have no problem with duality in order to keep the balance. I do have a problem with self-serving hypocrisy, especially when it takes the form of instruction that can easily destroy the world.

The form of instruction that can easily destroy the world?

Can you help me to understand more precisely?

reply to post by Deetermined


More division and discord has been sown by the Bible, and more hindrance in spirituality, than unity ever was.

The moment we were offered a loophole to the laws of nature, we relied on God too much. And in our desperation to make an awesome deal out of it, we began to rewrite the scripture, to the point that we BELIEVED what we were writing. Mankind never intended to make an honest go of the whole thing. We use stuff. We milk it, and drop it. Same with religion, and with God. We only want God as long as we get something from it.

And if we find a way to get something from it without being caught, you can be damned sure we will. And so we have.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Religion was law in those times. Social disobedience today was both back then. If you displeased authorities, you broke the law. Simple.

Displeasing authorities was not breaking the law, however, they could break the law themselves in order to punish you, if that's what you mean. This is the law versus human tactics. It doesn't mean that human tactics are the law.

reply to post by Deetermined

Displeasing authorities was not breaking the law, however, they could break the law themselves in order to punish you, if that's what you mean.

If they had to break the law to punish him, then he obviously did something to displease them. And even if it wasn't LEGAL rebellion, it was still rebellion.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Deetermined

 

More division and discord has been sown by the Bible, and more hindrance in spirituality, than unity ever was.

That continues to be because everyone's understanding of it is different. Not everyone was meant to understand it the same way.

I'm not sure how you figure that the Bible hinders spirituality.

I'd say mankind has always been divided. Religion or not, mankind will always be divided and it's not just because of our understanding of religion or anything spiritual either. THIS IS THE NATURE OF MAN IN ITSELF!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

If they had to break the law to punish him, then he obviously did something to displease them. And even if it wasn't LEGAL rebellion, it was still rebellion.

OK, I give, they rebelled against Jesus and everything he taught, so they put him to death!

Sorry, I couldn't help myself on that one, but who had the greater rebellion?

These people tried harder to rebel against God and Jesus' teachings than anything Jesus ever did!

I'm just pointing out the lengths that people will go to in order to rebel against that which they don't want to believe!

I think we both did a pretty good job of proving that point!!

reply to post by Deetermined


I never said they didn't rebel. You said Jesus wasn't a rebel, and you've obviously withdrawn that opinion. I've no further argument on that point.

reply to post by Deetermined

Displeasing authorities was not breaking the law, however, they could break the law themselves in order to punish you, if that's what you mean.

Twice now, it's been pointed out that for the Jews, religious laws were the law. Why are you getting into a legalistic interpretation of this? The man was a rabble-rouser, an outspoken whistle-blower. That is rebellion against authority. He denounced their practices and methods. Nowadays you either get fired, or shot, depending on who you've 'annoyed'.

I also have a question about this "passing through doors" theory. My understanding is that he was physically present, eating, talking, walking around. Not levitating or passing through walls and doors.

But then, it's clear that your faith is based on pre-Dead Sea Scrolls and pre-Nag Hammadi texts. Seems logical to me that with more information discovered, it needs to be INCLUDED, in a revised "new edition".....of this "Bible."

Everything else is updated as new information is discovered. But not religion. They're still stuck in the ancient mode, and show no interest in "updating" the story. Is it any wonder that many, many people have turned to more intelligent thoughts?

Even His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama says "If science proves anything about Buddhism to be incorrect, Buddhism will have to change."

I don't get why so many Christian (if not all) sects refuse to get with the program and keep up. It's based on a story, just like Star Wars, or the Lord of the Rings...same message; different characters. Have you ever read the series "Dune"? Full of parables and mythology -- complete fiction -- but gives a very, very good analogy to the issues of Belief and Worship.

And furthermore, why is the Christian myth/legend any more credible than the Greek and Roman pantheon beliefs? Or the Native American beliefs? Or Pagan beliefs? They all deal with the supernatural, and none of it can be "proven."

I still am dissatisfied with the Bible. It was poorly compiled to begin with, put together NOT in chronological order, and not even definitely written by the supposed "authors", none of whom actually KNEW Jesus. At least the Nag Hammadi texts are representative of other "versions" that were "hidden" for protection. Even they were not contemporary to Jesus, but that seems just to not matter. People put way too much faith in this "secret" stuff that they have to agree to believe in before being exposed to it. What? There are plenty of us who say, "No, spiritual leader, you present your material in a way I can understand it, and THEN I'll decide if I want into the contract, or even believe you, or not."

It's like signing a contract you haven't been allowed to read ahead of time. Bad news all the way around. No one with any common sense would do such a thing, unless they were coerced and too afraid to say "no." We don't expect other people to behave that way -- we expect informed consent, and the opt-out right before we are railroaded into any "contract." Why should "God" -- the Big Kahuna -- not be held to the same standard what we lowly humans expect our own kind to recognize?

Originally posted by wildtimes

I also have a question about this "passing through doors" theory. My understanding is that he was physically present, eating, talking, walking around. Not levitating or passing through walls and doors.

He did all of it after his resurrection.

But then, it's clear that your faith is based on pre-Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi texts. Seems logical to me that with more information discovered, it needs to be INCLUDED, in a revised "new edition".....of this "Bible."

Everything else is updated as new information is discovered. But not religion. They're still stuck in the ancient mode, and show no interest in "updating" the story. Is it any wonder that many, many people have turned to more intelligent thoughts?

What part needs to be updated?

Even His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama says "If science proves anything about Buddhism to be incorrect, Buddhism will have to change."

What part has science proven to be incorrect about the Bible?

I don't get why so many Christian (if not all) sects refuse to get with the program and keep up. It's based on a story, just like Star Wars, or the Lord of the Rings...same message; different characters. Have you ever read the series "Dune"? Full of parables and mythology -- complete fiction -- but gives a very, very good analogy to the issues of Belief and Worship.

Christians don't believe that it's just a story. A lot of the Bible is prophecy and not stories.

I have not read "Dune", but I have read and compared different stories in mythology, and to be honest with you, I don't think it's all complete fiction.

And furthermore, why is the Christian myth/legend any more credible than the Greek and Roman pantheon beliefs? Or the Native American beliefs? Or Pagan beliefs? They all deal with the supernatural, and none of it can be "proven."

It all depends on who's reading it and what they want to believe. Not everyone is going to put their faith in the same things. I've already expressed my views on why I believe in the God of the Bible. And yes, I did get swayed into New Age thinking and practices for a couple of years before I realized it wasn't for me and it did nothing to increase my spirituality.

I still am dissatisfied with the Bible. It was poorly compiled to begin with, put together NOT in chronological order, and not even definitely written by the supposed "authors", none of whom actually KNEW Jesus. At least the Nag Hammadi texts are representative of other "versions" that were "hidden" for protection. Even they were not contemporary to Jesus, but that seems just to not matter. People put way too much faith in this "secret" stuff that they have to agree to believe in before being exposed to it. What? There are plenty of us who say, "No, spiritual leader, you present your material in a way I can understand it, and THEN I'll decide if I want into the contract, or even believe you, or not."

That's why you have free will, my friend.

It's like signing a contract you haven't been allowed to read ahead of time. Bad news all the way around. No one with any common sense would do such a thing, unless they coerced and too afraid to say "no." We don't expect other people to behave that way -- we expect informed consent, and the opt-out right before we are railroaded into any "contract." Why should "God" -- the Big Kahuna -- not be held to the same standard what we lowly humans expect our own kind to recognize?

It's not about being coerced or being afraid, but for some reason, people don't seem to understand that either. No one is coerced into spirituality and it all depends on what you're following as to what spirits you are receiving and getting your information from.

As a spiritual person, you have or have not come to the realization that not all is as it seems and not all of it is made up of logic? There's more out there than what we can see or make sense out of.

As for the "Big Kahuna" having to be held to some kind of human standard, I think humans might have their priorities a little bit backward, but if you're going to require proof instead of faith, you'll get it, it just might take longer...or not based on current signs/prophecies coming to light!

reply to post by Deetermined


Who was it that said God made the Bible so only believers could read it?

In other words, you're already decided before you ever read the thing. Where's the logic in that? The truth, the light? That sounds cheap. Just plain cheap.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You want the cold hard truth about the Bible?

There's predestination.

God already knows which ones are going to believe and He only speaks to them.

The only thing you don't know is when or if you're one of them until you die.

The good news is, if you're still searching for him, there's always a good chance that you'll still find him and he's taking his sweet time allowing you to do it.