Christian upbringing? (me, too) Recently born again? Let's talk!

reply to post by NewAgeMan


You've completely missed my point. Allow me to reiterate:

Exactly. "Unconditional" does not mean "rules and restrictions may apply". Yet in this case, they appear to be one and the same. In my eyes, that isn't right.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

You've completely missed my point. Allow me to reiterate:

Exactly. "Unconditional" does not mean "rules and restrictions may apply". Yet in this case, they appear to be one and the same. In my eyes, that isn't right.

I'm sorry. You mean "everything goes"..?

But isn't God as the everlasting, holy and righteous one above all (most high) not allowed to guard his own sacred space while making a provision for forgiveness which makes no compromise with sin and evil..?

Please, though, think it all the way through before moving into your default stance.

By unconditional I think it means a loving forgiveness that's freely available ie: that we don't have to earn, deserve or repay.

But it's not and can't be a wide open, permissive framework to sin, lest the Grace of God loses it's supreme value.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Unconditional means NO STRINGS ATTACHED. No restrictions, no boundaries, no guidelines and no rules.

Am I wrong? Is Webster Dictionary wrong? Does God have the wrong dictionary?

But isn't God as the everlasting, holy and righteous one above all (most high) not allowed to guard his own sacred space

I guess he should have made us MORE perfect, seeing as how he didn't quite land it this time around. If he's that worried about it, he can still fix us all up. Omnipotent, remember? But he won't. That would ruin the gladiator games. What show is he supposed to watch then? Seventh Heaven? Charlie's Angels?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The opportunity is always present to roll into increasing degrees of integrity, wholeness, and love, and enter into God's own field of play which is a creative space of limitless possibility. I don't think he relishes watching us play on that other field. And yes, there are boundaries even in the new game, in order for the game to be played and to have fun.

If you've been around the block a few times, as I have, then you'll have put things to the test, and will have discovered that sinful things just don't add up to fun and enjoyment, but I'm not one to preach because I still have a lot of things to work on. That I am convicted in the spirit about my life, and what God as love would prefer for me, is a blessing, even though it's painful. God disciplines those he loves.

You want to run rampant with no rules? Go ahead if you really need more "education"..

Ironically I've found that God has a certain affinity for rebels, because in the end, he who's been forgiven more, loves more.

Some of these paradoxes just can't be resolved, not with traditional thinking. Like I said, some day you'll have an epiphany about these things enough to cause you to burst out laughing at God's own sense of humor and charm, just don't close yourself off completely to the possibility that there's a missing piece of knowledge to be gained that presently resides in the domain of an unknown unknown or something that you don't even know you don't know, yet.

Originally posted by wildtimes

Dee, I appreciate your acknowledgement of this. We are allowed to "think freely." And I believe that is one of the gifts with which we are endowed.

So, why would he (He...whatever)....want us to set that aside and just follow this rule book? I've never, ever, just "accepted" the "rules".... Ever. It's not in my nature to do so. Why did "God" make me, then? So I could flounder? Or so I could present some alternatives to the world? There is just too much about "Christianity" sects that mutate the real message...as they are today, I see that they have been corrupted and are no longer teaching his message (if he even existed).

God has allowed everyone free will and thinking so that they CHOOSE to follow him and not be forced to. He wants us to follow the rule book as proof that we choose to follow him and we want to do his will, and not our own.

God ultimately creates everything and everyone to carry out his will in the end. I believe that's the true meaning of "as above, so below". Regardless of whether in heaven or on earth, ultimately God's will will be done and prevail. Whether all of us are spreading the right message or the wrong one, you're either helping someone in your direction or their spirit is telling them to go another direction. Whatever each person's spirit is meant to hear, they will hear.

It's also my opinion, that as long as everyone continues to seek him, that they will not flounder forever, but I'm not going to say that it won't take the rest of your life either. For some people, it takes a lifetime.

It's going to take you longer because you've had bad experiences, (this is probably what makes you flounder) but eventually you'll learn to forgive and realize that humans are going to make mistakes and all churches are made up of humans!

This is another reason why I feel like the Bible is important. There may come a time when it appears as though everyone is corrupting the message and absolutely no one is living like Jesus and the Bible may be the only thing left to turn to for comfort and peace.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
I guess he should have made us MORE perfect, seeing as how he didn't quite land it this time around. If he's that worried about it, he can still fix us all up. Omnipotent, remember? But he won't. That would ruin the gladiator games. What show is he supposed to watch then? Seventh Heaven? Charlie's Angels?

"Therefore, be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven is perfect" (whole and complete, without loss of integrity), and where we "collapse", he fills the gaps and picks us back up again, and again, but the idea is to eventually roll into a new game and a new life as a new creation. It's simple but not easy, and there's always more to do, more psychological and spiritual growth to be realized. Think of his perfection standing in for your flaws, so that you will be perfected one way or another, that's the intercessory grace of Jesus Christ. That said, we need to first measure the cost of discipleship, because once he starts in with us, he will not leave us or forsake us, which creates it's own dilemma relative to our sinful nature, and hey c'mon that's kind of amuzing when you think about it..

A Palace, Not A Cottage

“Imagine yourself a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps you understand what He is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on; you knew that those jobs needed doing, so you are not surprised. But presently He starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is He up to? The explanation is that He is building quite a different house from the one you thought of; throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there, running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage, but He is building a palace. He intends to live there!"

~ C.S. Lewis

I tell you, God is hilarious, absolutely perfect in everything, including his sense of humor.


"Our liberation is God's compulsion."
~ C.S. Lewish

"Love, and do as you will."
~ St. Augustine

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It is true that living under Grace (appropriated or recieved) transcends the morality of should and shouldn't, but you can't get to that point while rebelling against it at the same time, there needs to be a change of heart capable of recieving it, then it's just "love, and do as you will" where we are set free for the sake of freedom to freely and authentically love as we are loved. So it's unconditional, but it's not a permissive framework to committ sin, and who would want to once liberated - although a glass of wine every now and again is surely ok!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by autowrench

 

A round of beers for you, my friend. It is good to see at least some people understand the disinformational past Christianity has hidden under its rugs...

Not to be disrespectful. I just believe that Christianity is far more misleading and uninformed than it is helpful.

Ahhh. Thanks, needed that!
I see it that way also, and have clearly shown more than a few things I have problems with. but! gotta love them for it, they just ignore all Ancient History like it didn't exist. Another thing most Christians are unaware of is a secret inner circle in the church. I only learned of it through pillow talk with a preachers niece one time. She told me a few things.

I would not have a problem with them if they would just stop it with the threats, Bible quotes, lies, and mythical creatures all the time, and trying to induct us all into their cult. I am really against anything that even looks like a religious cult. I almost lost a step son to one.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by BlueMule

 

I'm just trying to decide if what you're really practicing is Christian Mysticism or some other kind of mysticism.

I think few Christians are qualified to decide that. If one spends a few years studying comparative mysticism, comparative religion, and comparative mythology (and have a few mystical experiences along the way) one might end up qualified.

I know a few things about it, came onto Gnosticism during my Grail Search. it is about a direct experience of God/Goddess without need of an intermediary. Gnostics practice meditation, and mystical experiences within the Spiritual World. They believe that gaining knowledge helps them to break free of bondage to the world.
But, this cannot be easily explained to a novice. Do the research, if you are interested.

reply to post by Deetermined

It's also my opinion, that as long as everyone continues to seek him, that they will not flounder forever, but I'm not going to say that it won't take the rest of your life either. For some people, it takes a lifetime.

It's going to take you longer because you've had bad experiences, (this is probably what makes you flounder) but eventually you'll learn to forgive and realize that humans are going to make mistakes and all churches are made up of humans!

This is another reason why I feel like the Bible is important. There may come a time when it appears as though everyone is corrupting the message and absolutely no one is living like Jesus and the Bible may be the only thing left to turn to for comfort and peace.

I have also had wonderful experiences, and I never said there is no "God". Ever. I believe there is a Divine Unity that we are all part of. And for the record, folks, I'm in my 50s. I STARTED at Church...and wandered from there. I'm not a hard-headed atheist, and I'm beginning to be rather irritated that my meaning -- despite all of this effort to communicate -- is being ignored or missed.

Why do people automatically assume I'm "not getting it yet"? I got it a long time ago, and I know exactly how I see things. I'm no lost and searching frail victim...I'm not "floundering" anymore. That was how I was TOLD I was, and told to ADMIT I was, as a little girl 45+ years ago!

I know that how I see things is flawed BECAUSE I AM HUMAN -- that's how it is for every single one of us -- and I agree with you that everyone MUST find their own way. By saying that, I am saying that I take what I know of what JESUS supposedly said, and discard everything else but his message. His message is universal, and does NOT require priests or leaders or fancy churches, or the Bible.

He did not write the Bible. Not any part of it. Zip. Nada. And there is nothing comforting in it, anyway. Comforting? It's a freaking horror story!

As for the "unconditional" part and "discipline" --- no. I am a parent. I did not threaten my beloved children with abandonment, eternal torture, or annihilation, ever. If that is what you all think is "discipline", then I can't change your mind. Not being told the rules but being told you BROKE them every single week, and are in danger of insufferable torment...is NOT LOVE. That is control, and abuse.

Why can't people see the parallels between domestic abusers, psychotic sadists, and the Biblical "God"?

A parent like that produces people who are a mess, and many, many runaways come from just such homes. A spouse like that destroys the spirit of the victim, and enjoys doing it. Both are toxic. So is a church that keeps people in line by scaring them, tricking them, telling them they have to do untoward things, all on pain of eternal suffering. WTF?!!

I ran away, and I'm not going back to any "authority" that says "..do what I want...or else!". I found a better place. But thanks for trying. There is too much ugliness among humans. I don't believe God is that same ugliness.

If we reach higher than our desire for power and control, higher than for someone else to take the blame, and stop waiting for someone else to relieve our suffering, THEN we find God -- the Divine.

We have to do it TOGETHER, with a collective conscious decision to have good will toward ourselves and EVERYONE ELSE. That is the culmination of this epic. For everyone to get on the same wavelength, reach higher, and ACT, as a unit, by PULLING together, not by being PUSHED together.
*sigh*

reply to post by wildtimes

I STARTED at Church...and wandered from there.

I did as well. I suppose you could say that my experiences in church settings showed me how worthwhile finding the truth would be.

reply to post by wildtimes


...your eloquence has brought tears to my spiritual eyes. I bow to your clarity and logic, friend. We are in full agreement on this matter of the soul.

reply to post by autowrench

Another thing most Christians are unaware of is a secret inner circle in the church.

Such groups are necessary to keep the leaders illusioned. It's a self-sustaining system.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

...your eloquence has brought tears to my spiritual eyes. I bow to your clarity and logic, friend. We are in full agreement on this matter of the soul.

Delighted to have moved you!!

Namaste

reply to post by wildtimes

Why do people automatically assume I'm "not getting it yet"?

Because if you aren't a bible believing Christian, you are obviously blinded and disillusioned by Satan, and your own sinful nature. It's impossible for you to "get it" apart from Christ.

Acts 4:12

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

See how that works? When you come at it from that perspective, nobody gets it, except those who are "saved" by the blood of Christ. Therefore, you don't get it.

reply to post by Klassified


My apologies for the post. I have a severe dislike for people too afraid of thinking for themselves. Combined with occasional misunderstanding (which I am also capable of) it shows through at times.

Again, apologies. I am, after all, only human. Emotions are in my blood, so to speak.

reply to post by Klassified

See how that works? When you come at it from that perspective, nobody gets it, except those who are "saved" by the blood of Christ. Therefore, you don't get it.

OOOOOooooh!!! I see.

Thanks for clarifying.

Well, obee kaybee, I guess. If that's what they want to think, I can't force them to stop making that mistake. And since I don't have a hell to threaten them with, I guess I'm just SOL!
Boo

reply to post by wildtimes


Someone told me that "Only believers will understand the Bible".

In other words, you have to accept it before you even look at it. Which means it doesn't matter WHAT the Bible says, everyone believes it without even seeing it. Hence, no need for evidence. See how that works? And I thought Homo Sapiens was intelligent...

Guess we were all wrong on that score. :shk:

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Whoa! whoa whoa there, AfterInfinity...

slow down. Take a breath.
Klassified is on our side. He was a fundamentalist preacher and has since left, due to his own disillusionment. And he's a friend of mine in spirit. He is on here working with the rest of us who are trying to enlarge people's view of things.

Gosh, your anger at these folks is pretty hair-triggered! What happened to you?
The OP asked for people to discuss how they got to where they are. Are you willing to share?

Take it easy, bro.. Take some time to get to know the club members before you go on the offensive so quickly. Just a suggestion. Attacking ChristianITY is one thing. Attacking other members is not cool. Mmmmkay?

reply to post by wildtimes


What happened to me? This world is going to hell, and instead of standing up and changing our species, the most intelligent prefer to use it to their worldly advantage, and the rest bury their heads in the sand while worshipping a god based on a two thousand year old book.

My problem? The world is f***ing stupid. And as a 2nd wave SC, I'm tired of it.