I joined the Communist Party

Originally posted by krossfyter

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

 

Where do the works of Marx deny one the right to your faith and spirituality? I would love for you to prove me wrong on these points of yours. Truly. I am all ears.

Still, it is a paradox in light of the knowledge that Marx and Engels were both occultists.

not sure if thats true. you may be right. but so what because:

Occult- The word occult comes from the Latin word occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the hidden"

nothing wrong with that at all, on the contrary!

I know what occult means. I studied theosophy in 1977.

I have no problem with the occult as such, but I do have a problem with occultists meeting in secret then planning and preaching an atheistic existence for the purpose of control.

nice! really cool stuff! than can we move past the semantics?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Everything you have posted is about the leninist way to reach communism, not communism itself, and that page uses words that I suspect are used on purpose. Like government, when Lenin never used that word or concept.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by FlyersFan
If you choose not to work, you get carried on the backs of those who actually do the work.
Communism doesn't work simply because people get lazy and others get tired of doing all the work
and carrying those who are lazy.

That is simply not true. Communism is not liberalism. If you choose not to work the community will chose not to support you. Because the means to produce are owned in common by the workers there is no excuse not to work if you are able.

There are always people making excuses not to work to their potential. And there are always people who actually work who end up carrying those who don't carry their own weight. In communism, there is no reward for hard work. If you work extra hard it only means that it will be taken from you and given to someone who isn't working as hard as you are. There is no incentive to work.

Marx did NOT understand basic human pscyhology. He assumed people would want to work and give away their earnings. He assumed people would be okay with not owning private property that they earned. That goes against basic human psychology ... it goes against survival evolutionary psychology. He envisioned a society where - "labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want". That's absurd. People always make excuses not to work. And society (be it capitalism or communism or anything inbetween) will always carry the lazy along on the backs of the productive.

From each According to His Ability to Each According To His Need

Although Marx is popularly thought of as the originator of the phrase, the slogan was common to the socialist movement and was first used by Louis Blanc in 1839, in "The organization of work".[4] The origin of this phrasing has also been attributed to the French communist Morelly,[5] who proposed in his 1755 Code of Nature "Sacred and Fundamental Laws that would tear out the roots of vice and of all the evils of a society" including

“ I. Nothing in society will belong to anyone, either as a personal possession or as capital goods, except the things for which the person has immediate use, for either his needs, his pleasures, or his daily work.
II. Every citizen will be a public man, sustained by, supported by, and occupied at the public expense.
III. Every citizen will make his particular contribution to the activities of the community according to his capacity, his talent and his age; it is on this basis that his duties will be determined, in conformity with the distributive laws.[6]

Basic evolutionary human psychology is that humans work for themselves, for survival. This is part of humanity. Marx did not understand the psychology of humanity. His vision of society was that of one big organism whereas the reality is that each person is an individual with survival instincts.

In communism .. why study hard to be a doctor and why work hard and long hours as a doctor, if you can just as easily be a dish washer and get the same benefits .. the same housing .. the same food ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Basic evolutionary human psychology is that humans work for themselves, for survival. This is part of humanity. Marx did not understand the psychology of humanity. His vision of society was that of one big organism whereas the reality is that each person is an individual with survival instincts.

In communism .. why study hard to be a doctor and why work hard and long hours as a doctor, if you can just as easily be a dish washer and get the same benefits .. the same housing .. the same food ...

Aristoteles said: "The man who can live alone is either an animal or a god."

So maybe Marx's understanding was deeper. This argument actually goes very well with your previous point "nothing is really free": you can't do it all alone... man actually lives in society.
The main argument here is how do you think we should behave... should we behave like ants or like wolves?
To me socialism/communism is more inclined towards ants, capitalism is more about the law of the strongest. What happens is that the percentage of real wolves in society is quite small, not to say that some wolves, like Marx I'd dare to say, take the part of the ant-like people. Then when the ant-like people is really pushed to extremes like they where after the industrial revolution you get a social revolution. The first my family speech and the property division are all cool for people that has something, but when there is enough people left with nothing the speech does not apply any more.
It is a good posibility that all this financial crisis and all we are living around the globe might end up being used as a pretext for another so called "communist" global government, it makes perfect sense. But that kind of system is not what I'm defending.
If this scenario is considered as plausible, true democratic communist parties, as the one the op joined might actually be regarded as a salvation of the current status quo. They would help alleviate the problems of the biggest part of the population but not to the point of suppression of property or complete nationalization of goods.

Talking about motivation... i'd rather have myself taken care of by a medic who could earn the same money washing dishes than being a surgeon and choosed to be a surgeon because he liked it or because of the challenge it meant, than by one who became a medic for the money he was going to make.

Once again, in the Romanian socialism, the only example I know first hand, the motivation for personal success existed and it was unlinked of the money. This alone was an extraordinary achievement.

It should also be noted that there is no human government system on the earth that I know of on which you don't pay money to the state. Anguita, a leader of a spanish communist party explains that. He says that when you get paid for your work you really get 3 payments. One is the cash you get, the second is used to pay for all the stuff you use and don't really pay for, like roads or schools, the third is some money that will be given to you when you'll no longer be able to work. He also notes that the main difference among the different parties is on how the money is distributed.

PD: You can also read Herman Hesse if you didn't, at the beginning of Demian, he makes a dialectic exercise telling the story of Abel and Cain from the perspective of Cain who is a strong guy, one who inspires fear on the rest of the people.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


communist doctrine makes a very vivid distinction between personal property and 'bourguiose' (can't spell) property. You have the right to aquire personal property, just not to exploit others in doing so. when they say 'private property' they mean factories and businesses, not houses and fridges. you unfortunately don't seem to understand what you are arguing against.

The main argument here is how do you think we should behave... should we behave like ants or like wolves?

We should behave like humans.

That means we are not just cogs of a collective style machine (the borg come to mind) where work for free is our ultimate goal. Basic humanity ... work is to survive and ownership of what you have earned is a survival. It's primal. It's us. It's who we are. It's human. And we are basically spiritual beings. Psychology tells us that humans need a reason (in their minds) for living. A higher purpose, even if we invent it. We need a God or religion. Communism is devoid of that. The 'god' is the human work machine.

In America there are socialist programs in place. Nets to help those who aren't making it. It's in the best interest of individual working Americans to have that there. By providing an avenue for those at the bottom of the financial ladder to better themselves (if they want it), it will, in the long run, help those who are earning a living on their own. Appeasement of the masses is a safety mechanism. However, this is not communism.

Communism is inherently selfish and it rewards the lazy.

Originally posted by Torbu
So maybe Marx's understanding was deeper.

He didn't understand human psychology or the human spirit at all.

i'd rather have myself taken care of by a medic who could earn the same money washing dishes than being a surgeon and choosed to be a surgeon because he liked it or because of the challenge it meant, than by one who became a medic for the money he was going to make.

I'd rather have myself taken care of by a medic who was motivated to do a good job because he knew that the better job he did, the better salary he'd make. The more he knows, the better job he does .... the more money he makes. It's an incentive to do better and to learn more which means that I'd receive better care. There is no reason for that medic to do better or to learn more if he knows he isn't going to make more money. If he knows he could go wash dishes and make the same money ... he'll go wash dishes or he'll be a very, very poor and unmotived (outdated) medic.

Cuban hospitals vs American hospitals.
Which gives better health care?
Not 'cheaper' health care .... I said BETTER health care.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Sure we have to live like humans... but what do we want human race to evolve towards?

I'm quite sure you understood very well the ants-wolves allegory so I'm not trying to make it more clear.

I'm really not convinced that property is as human inherent as you believe. Survival is human, as it's a characteristics of all living beings... all have an instinct for survival. Now survival has to aspects, one is the individual survival, the other and more important one is the survival of the specie. The survival of the specie is by design superior and more imperative than the survival of the individual. Probably that is why sex is such an important drive in society and human relationships. This could be further supported but I think we'd get way out of topic, plus it's quite intuitive and I don't think we would disagree on this point.

You say human beings are also spiritual. No doubt we are. I do think that spirituality is at least an important part of human development and full potential fulfilment. But what is the contradiction of that with the ideas we were presenting all along trying to show that communism is not evil and makes sense!?
To me, Jesus, could be considered a perfect communist example. What more can you do apart of teaching people to love each other more than they love themselves? Can you argue that the unity idea on Buddhism is anyway opposed to the idea of not exploiting your fellows and is not actually supporting it? Or the sharing teachings from the Qou'ran, telling you that you must give money to the poor. Even in the old Iranian tells, the legendary Hārūn al-Rashīd used to get out of his palace mix himself with the people so he could help them, but well that is not religion any more.

I do also agree that we need a higher purpose, I'm convinced we do! And in the case of the socialist countries, the reason used to be to achieve a better society for everybody. The improvement of everybody was on the agenda!

Now for some reason all the guys against the communism that attacked it in here, don't seem to understand that communism is not what it was done once upon in the time in Romania, in Russia or in Cuba! Those where attempts. Some where more successful than others, but they were just attempts if not only a justification for some arbitrary policies.

What we are talking here is about a guy who joined a party that is not governing, that did not kill anyone, that did not commit any crime, and that the only thing that wants, playing by the Norwegian laws is to have a chance to rule Norway in a way that would make sense to them. He presented you with all the ideas of the party which I think are all noble and worst supporting. Hard to put in practice? Sure they are! But nevertheless worth listening and if anything bringing constructive opinions on.
So despite that I cannot speak for the rest of the pro-communist supporters on this thread I think we are not focusing on any particular implementation of the communism that took place in any country 20 or 50 years ago. If we were to talk about the bible this conversation would be as stupid as you telling me that Jesus and the new testament is about love and I going on saying that in the old testament they say eye for eye. Then you'd explain me again that it wasn't really meaned like that and that Jesus was about changing all that and bringing the love thing, and I going over and over again remembering you about the Crusades or the popes abusing children.
Let's not be mean, let's try keeping an open mind instead of assuming stuff that gets contradicted again and again.

Remember that Marx was actually an English gentleman of a privileged class, hence he had the education and the time, and wrote a manifesto about the stuff he saw and thought it wasn't right for the poor guys. He didn't rule no country, and he had as much fault on what happened in Russia or Cuba as Wagner or Nietzsche had on Hitler's success. I'm quite certain that if Marx would be alive today he would go against the brainwashing they are performing on TV and that would be what he would now call the opium of the people. Then about communism and religion you need to understand that all the eastern union countries including Russia they are all deeply Christian. The land that is now Romania, was holding "pagan" armies for 2000 years out of Europe. The Zar of Russia had a holy meaning too... The Church was strong, and any new regime that would claim power for himself would need to cut any potential opposing strong roots. So again is futile to claim that there is no place for religion in communism.

I could on the other hand argue that you can't be a business man and true Christian. How wouldn't you do what do not like done to you to the people that work for you?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Basic evolutionary human psychology is that humans work for themselves, for survival. This is part of humanity. Marx did not understand the psychology of humanity.

Actually we are a communal species and our evolutionary history shows this, even as modern humans we have always worked together in tribes of some form. The lack of community and selfishness of the modern era is abnormal and many theorize is partly the cause of depression, anxiety etc. that is so high in our society.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
He assumed people would want to work and give away their earnings. He assumed people would be okay with not owning private property that they earned. That goes against basic human psychology ... it goes against survival evolutionary psychology

Firstly many people do give work away for free, its called volunteer work and its very popular as well as highly psychologically rewarding, which feeds into my next point... it does not go against basic human psychology but rather many psychological benefits are gained from undertaking such work for example increased happiness, lower rates of depression, even longer lifespans!

When pessimistically assuming people are selfish you have to keep in mind one thing: the world they were born and raised in. This current system we live under is a cut-throat, dog-eat-dog world where from the moment your born your surround by and indoctrinated into a system that is all about acquiring for yourself sometimes even to the detriment of others. We live in a world where work is a chore, we don't do what we love, we just do what we gotta do to pay bills. Its no wonder people commit selfish crimes or are lazy at work when you take into consideration the world they are raised into. People who grew up in the old system probably can't imagine it, they have had to adapt to this hell in order to survive, but children born into it wouldn't know it any other way. Whenever anybody gives to you, don't you feel compelled to return the behavior? Isn't that a common human trait?

If your job was you hobby, why would you be so lazy? Aren't most people you know hard working? The very few truly lazy people out who don't have a single hobby or anything would still not be anywhere near a burden on the society as the inefficiencies of capitalism are like marketing (a trillion dollar industry we don't even need, in fact it is detrimental if you count the brainwashing, making us materialistic etc.).

There's a funny thing about the distribution of human interest and need. The amount people who really enjoy tinkering with cars is about equivalent to the amount of mechanics we need, the amount of people who are obsessed with birds is about equivalent to the amount of ornithologists we need, The amount of people who love cooking equivalent to the amount of cooks that we need and so on.
Many jobs we don't need anyone to do at all, but could be mechanized like the self cleaning toilets in Japan or the robotic garbage collectors.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
In communism .. why study hard to be a doctor and why work hard and long hours as a doctor, if you can just as easily be a dish washer and get the same benefits .. the same housing .. the same food ...

Not how communism works at all, at least try to read about the basic facts of it first before making such a claim.

If I, beezzer, were to join the "communist" party, could I still make oodles of money and keep it?

Would I have to pay out anything?

Could I still keep my guns?

Could I still say what I wanted?


??????????????????????????????????????????????????

Originally posted by Torbu
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Did you know that in Romania they gave us computer programming courses back in 85? We even had video games on them. And some of them were written in Romania. Never paid for any of them as they were free.

wow, really?... I am sure then that your father, or your mother, or even both were high rank in the communist party...

Oh yes, in communism there are people who get the best stuff, and they are ALL families of communist party members, people who work for "THE STATE" and not for the people...

I can see why the Romanian dictator is your idol...

The problem I see with your reasoning is that you really don't manage to see any other motivation but the money. But then here you are spending lot of time reading this thread and answering. So there might be some other motivations out there...

Indeed I can tell you from my own experience that you can teach children into the value of sharing and into doing things right just to be proud of your work. You can say that's brainwashing, I can reply that teaching kids to do stuff only for money and being selfish, which is how you need to raise them if you want them to succeed in this society, is also brainwashing.

Only that it is nicer to live near someone who is generous than near someone who is selfish.

About the medic I can only take it that you are not really passionate about your work or you are not doing anything really challenging. I'm telling you, I'm a simple computer scientist, there are month that I don't make even 500 euro. There are others I make 15k. But I put the same passion on my work each day and each month. Without real passion for my work, I won't be able to read like 500 pages of new stuff each week, I won't be able to work endless hours, I won't be able to do what I'm doing. Even if someone would pay me 30k a day! It's just too much to digest... Sure I finally work for the money and I like getting paid, but for me the satisfaction that the code I write is better or faster or quicker to code than the one of my competence, the satisfaction of a happy customer, that is far more important. So the drive here is not the money really... What I know is that I'd feel even more fulfilled if I'd know that the software I write does some good to someone. But again, research doesn't pay. Until I started to work, and even now I keep dreaming about working on artificial intelligence, the truth is I did more research while at school, high-school and university than in the 15 years I have been working. Maybe even if I would have dedicated this last 15 years on AI I wouldn't have got to any outstanding achievement. It can be. But out of a population of 40 million which is Spain, assuming there are only another 100 guys better than me in my same situation, it's quite clear that chances for anyone of us to reach some outstanding results would have been huge... Then you don't include there US, because if you do you can start realizing what the cost of the current system is in terms of scientific advances.
You'll say that those advances were not important because if they were they would receive the funds... not true... the uneducated market which is what the product of this current society is, doesn't demand scientific advances. They are nice if they come, but they don't really care about them. Plus some of these potential advances go against the current economic model.
Have a look at the last episode of Zeitgeist, the point is made very clearly in there... there is each day less use for dumb people. In fact the fact that hamburgers are not already flipped by a robot it does not by any mean it's not possible. It's even possible to construct a whole house by a robot...
And as a bottom line, as some other people tried to explain in here, no one ever tried to go from capitalism to communism. It would take generations, because you'd need to train or brainwash if you prefer entire generations until you'll get to a whole country of people that would be ready for communism.

Originally posted by polarwarrior

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by FlyersFan
In communism .. why study hard to be a doctor and why work hard and long hours as a doctor, if you can just as easily be a dish washer and get the same benefits .. the same housing .. the same food ...

Not how communism works at all, at least try to read about the basic facts of it first before making such a claim.

edit on 13-6-2012 by polarwarrior because: (no reason given)

Very nice post polarwarrior, exactly what I was trying to say!

About the last statement he is actually right, at least in Romania's case, the differences between an medic and a simple construction worker were negligible. It was even possible that the construction worker would make more if he would have more experience. But then again, people was free to choose what they wanted to be!

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by Torbu
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

Did you know that in Romania they gave us computer programming courses back in 85? We even had video games on them. And some of them were written in Romania. Never paid for any of them as they were free.

wow, really?... I am sure then that your father, or your mother, or even both were high rank in the communist party...

Oh yes, in communism there are people who get the best stuff, and they are ALL families of communist party members, people who work for "THE STATE" and not for the people...

I can see why the Romanian dictator is your idol...

edit on 13-6-2012 by ElectricUniverse because: (no reason given)

I'm so sorry to dissapoint you! None of them could get in the party as my father had an uncle who used to be a dissident.

Another thing I can tell you is that despite of the fact that we left after the fall of the regime, my father wanted to live years before that. He just could not get us all out of the country. His problem was that he has the same salary as his workers despite he was an advanced engineer doing research and working with like 200 of such workers.

But I can also tell you that he now regrets that mentality he had back then. He realizes that it was due to that mentality that the system did not hold.

Originally posted by CoolStoryMan
reply to post by interupt42

 

Come on man, Cuba does not properly apply communism, I believe if it was used correctly, it has a decent chance to provide positive results

That is the point. Communism sounds great in theory but it will never work in practice and is unsustainable.

I know the comrades here like to say that communism is not a gov't but rather an economic system , which IMO is misleading. Capitalism like communism is also an economic system but both require some type of governing system.

However, unlike with true capitalism where the market dictates what products,services,and jobs people do, communism relies on a governing force at the top to ENFORCE people to do the mandatory and less than satisfying jobs.

With capitalism the gov't job should only be to ensure that the market is not manipulated nor monopolized so the market can drive the demand of products ,services, goods and ingenuity. Unlike today's so called capitalist society which are really corporatist societies, which encourages the opposite and allows for lobbyists to manipulate the market and utilize loop holes to allow for monopolies to occur.

Lets forget about the likely hood that when you give a large governing body power they are likely to manipulate it and that is why the corporatism we have today sucks (too big of a gov't). However, communism would require a large overseeing governing body to ensure the things that need to get done get done and to oversee the distribution of resources (housing,cars,food,water,etc...) which will likely lead to corruption.

I guess the big problem I see with communism is the motivating factor to get people to do the less than desirable jobs or the more demanding jobs while treating everyone equally?

If I can live in the same house , neighborhood, and get the same resources as my neighbor who is a doctor why would I sacrifice and go to school for 8 years? Sure I might have the will to help sick people , but will there be enough kind hearted people that would be willing to sacrifice to become a doctor to meet the demand of the population? Not likely, so a system will need to be in place that will force people to do certain tasks, which is a loss of freedom. If you have never experienced that , you don't truly appreciate or understand how IMPORTANT freedom is.

I grew up in Cuba and I remember my parents having to hide my uncles and siblings a couple of times while the military did a random stop to pick up adult men in order to take them to the fields to harvest crops. The problem with that wasn't even that it was a crappy job , but the job required that they be sent to another part of the country where you wouldn't be able to see them for months at a time at a moments whim and sometimes for longer periods. So while the comrades don't like to label Cuba as communist country, they will still have to deal with the same issues of motivation.

If we are all equal and should be treated as such. why wouldn't everyone desire to live in the more favorable parts of town (waterfront, acreage,etc )? Why wouldn't we all not want to do the less demanding and enjoyably jobs? So the truth of the matter is that it would be impossible to have such a society in reality and eventually the non existing utopian Communist gov't will have to treat the citizens unequally in order address demands.

Eventually that doctor will get to live on the waterfront home and get preferential treatment in a communist society. Unless of course they force people to become doctors than everyone can be equal by force. Therefore, that janitor and the perception of a doctor being better than a janitor will eventually prevail even in a communist society.

Originally posted by ANOK

You are the one ignorant of the history of communism, and European history in general.

Me ignorant about this topic?... :LOL:

You are the ignorant idiot who claims that in socialism the means of production is owned by the worker, when in fact that is the definition of COMMUNISM...

Originally posted by ANOK
You first have to understand what communism is before you can claim to know it's history.

I lived and experienced communism... Can you tell us your EXPERIENCE in communism?...

Originally posted by ANOK
I know you've never read any communism or socialist literature, you only know what you've read out of context on line. You come on here blustering around claiming people are clueless, I mean, oh the irony lol.

LOL unlike you I proved that you are wrong 100 times about the difference between socialism and communism... You can't even understand the main differences between the two, yet you have the audacy to imply I am ignorant about this topic?...

Originally posted by ANOK
Have you ever read about the Spanish revolution? I doubt it. That is the only time socialism has really been tried on a nationwide scale, and it was successful. But of course you won't care about that because your mind is already too far gone to come back to reality.

Have I read about the red uprising in Spain?... I have written about it in these forums and showed that the COMMUNISTS in Spain during your preciouss revolution MURDERED priests, and people in the streets for being religious...

That time in Spain is also known as the "RED TERROR IN SPAIN", and not because the leftists brought heaven for the people, but rather because they brought HELL, murdering people, not only did they murder industrialists, landowners, and politicians, but as well regular people and even priests for being religious... The reds burned and desecrated monasteries and churches...

In ONE SUMMER your leftist idols murdered almost 7,000 PRIESTS... and in total the estimates are between 38,000 to over 100,000 people in one summer...

The mere suspicion of a person being religious, or clergy was enough for your idols TO MURDER PEOPLE...

Here, let me show you who were some of the people who were murdered by the REDS...

But this glorious Christian heritage and past is marked by a Dark period in which being Christian was a crime in the land that always was a fervent defender of Christianity… it is what is called the “Red terror”, another criminal record in the hall of fame of communism.
Between 1873 and 1931, Spain was having a political instability; the monarchy fell in 1873 leaving a place for the 1st Spanish republic and the 2nd in 1931. The political debate in the country was between defenders of the monarchy (conservatives) and communist all along with other left groups.
After the general election of 1936 tensions escalated between the two rivals and soon turned violent into clashes. Both parties fought each other in what was called later the Spanish civil war, but the atrocities committed by the communists (called Republicans in opposition to the right groups called nationalists) were by far barbaric and criminal.
The first year of the war witnessed the most terrible massacres: priests, nuns, clergy, monks, church attendants, bourgeoisies, politicians, industrialists …. Were slaughtered and murdered for the Christian faith. The catholic church of Spain lost 20 % of its clergy (6,832) in what was recognized to be the most severe persecution of Christians in the western world (de la Cueva 1998, p. 355)!!!
The death toll was not exactly known, it is estimated that between 38000 and 110000 were murdered by the communists (men of a Mancha). All this along with the destruction and burning of monasteries and churches all over the country.
...

christiangeopolitics.blogspot.com...


The fact that you adore, and idolize this red uprising shows how sick and demented you are...

I know now for certain that the one who has lost your mind is you. I didn't want to say anything about it because maybe you have alzeimer's, or some other mental incapacity, but enough is enough...

You are totally unable to reason, even though evidence is shown directly to you, you want to continuously claim it is the way YOU say so...

Originally posted by ANOK
Read and learn something, stop with the stupid assumptions and out right lies, please.
...

I have posted evidence FOR EVERYTHING I HAVE WRITTEN... The one who needs to listen to reason are people like you who are too arrogant and too obtuse to want to change your mind on an ideology which has caused more murders/deaths than all the wars, including major wars, and small conflicts in the 20th century...

I have said it plenty of times and will say it again. There are millions if not billions of people like me, who will not bow down to your SICK, and DISEASED ideology, and would rather die fighting than become once again a victim to socialism/communism...

Originally posted by beezzer
If I, beezzer, were to join the "communist" party, could I still make oodles of money and keep it?

No.

Would I have to pay out anything?

All of it.

Could I still keep my guns?

No.

Could I still say what I wanted?

No.

And this website would not be here. It's frivolous. The money to keep a website like this going, would instead go to those at the bottom of the rung. It would pay to support people like those you see on the Maury or Springer show. You could say goodbye to the internet and freedoms because everyone would be working to support each other. WORK would be your life. Take a look at what I quoted ...

ETA - and you wouldn't be able to worship as you wish. Look at what the communists have done to people who wish to worship in Portugals history .. in Cuba ... in Russia .. in China ...

Well,looks like this just devolved into another snarl word, everything evil is leftist thread. We might as well just end it here.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


FYI: www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk...

It has been calculated that the Nationalist Army executed 75,000 people in the war whereas the Republican Army accounted for 55,000. These deaths takes into account the murders of members of rival political groups. It is estimated that about 5,300 foreign soldiers died while fighting for the Nationalists (4,000 Italians, 300 Germans, 1,000 others). The International Brigades suffered heavy losses during the war. Approximately 4,900 soldiers died fighting for the Republicans (2,000 Germans, 1,000 French, 900 Americans, 500 British and 500 others). Around 10,000 Spanish people were killed in bombing raids. The vast majority of these were victims of the German Condor Legion. The economic blockade of Republican controlled areas caused malnutrition in the civilian population. It is believed that this caused the deaths of around 25,000 people. About 3.3 per cent of the Spanish population died during the war with another 7.5 per cent being injured. After the war it is believed that the government of General Francisco Franco arranged the executions of 100,000 Republican prisoners. It is estimated that another 35,000 Republicans died in concentration camps in the years that followed the war.

Anyway the Spanish Civil War was a brutal war as all civil wars. Accusing the left side of war crimes knowing what the other party did is just a terrible idea.

And whatever historical facts like this you bring on, they don't support your argument, not a single bit. It would be really really nice if you'd take the time to read before posting the same thing on the same tone with the same arguments over and over again.

EDIT:For the record, the republicans where the left wing guys and the nationals the right wing ones, just for those that had no idea.

reply to post by Torbu


We seem to have different approaches to the same basic problem, with different focii. It seems that you believe that what is good for society is good for the individual, and I believe that what is good for the individual is good for society. I believe that without society, individual will still exist, but without individuals, society no longer exists, and that is why I put my focus on individuals rather than society. It all has to start with the individual, and flow from him, rather than the other way around.

Because of that, I'm not interested in adding value to society. Society can decide whether it want's what I have to add or not, and act accordingly. When, however, society decides to impose it's values on me, there is inevitably trouble, because in common with the Mafia, society will try to "make you an offer you can't refuse". When I do refuse it, and go my own way, society tries to force me into the mold. that's the entire wrong way around from my perspective - I should be molding society, not allowing society to mold me.

I have heard of the economic woes in Spain, as well as Greece, Portugal, and Ireland. In my opinion, they are most likely stemming from the same root as the recent economic troubles in the US - socialistic policies. Society is demanding too much from the individual - more than he can bear in many cases - in order to fatten up the rest of itself. That will ultimately make everyone skinny, except the shot-callers at the top of the heap. THEY always manage to stay fat, whether under capitalism, communism, socialism, or whateverism.

I'm not "middle class", and have never been. I was born poor, lived poor, and can get by on nearly nothing. that doesn't mean that I'm willing to produce and produce, and allow society to skim the fat of my labor. I don't care if it's a capitalist society or a communist one, that's just not going to happen. What I make is primarily for the benefit of me and mine, and if society insists on stealing more than I'm willing to give, I'll just stop producing any more than I can use for myself and my family. I have 4 generations to look out for, and there's not much left for society to take. If they take it anyhow, there is no longer any reason for me to produce. If I and my family must suffer, you can bet I'm not going to help society NOT suffer.

I studied Physics and Astronomy at university. Since there weren't any jobs in Astronomy, I never went to work in it. I didn't study it for the job, though, I studied it to improve my self, and to indulge my own interests. I was free to do that, without getting locked in to being forced into the field.

It appears we have different notions of what constitutes "freedom". In a world where the individual is free to do as he wants, he can choose for himself whether to go your way and do as society tells him to do, or he can choose for himself whether to go my way, and do as he pleases. In the rigidly structured world of communist society, that degree of freedom is removed, and he must do as society tells him to do. That, to me, is no freedom at all - it's the freedom of a bird in a societal cage.

ETA: I want nothing to do with State pensions or State health care. The State owes me nothing, and I don't want to owe it anything, either. I do NOT want to be in the debt of the State - ever. I don't go into other debts, and I'm not going to go into that sort of debt, either. For example, I have no credit cards, nor do I want any. That's debt, and leaves one beholden to a credit company. Likewise, I want nothing from the State, because I don't want to be beholden to them, either. I never borrow money nor accept "gifts". If I can't get what I need under my own effort, I just don't really need it that bad.