I joined the Communist Party

reply to post by nenothtu


read the communist manifesto, that's a pretty good start. the language is a bit preachy but i found it quite funny. the concepts are sound at the time of writing and his analysis of history and social structures was ground breaking. it's not very long but it should give you a good idea of how the name communism came to represent a particular school of progressive thinking in western europe. it was written at the beginning of the 19th century but many of the themes are still very relevant... there is also a very good break down in another thread on ats.... the answers are there for you if you really want to understand.

Originally posted by wagnificent

If we use the description from the Communist Manifesto, there are no real world examples of communism.

Precisely. There are no real world examples in accordance with The Communist Manifesto. Don't you think that, if it were actually a workable idea, one or two would have cropped up in the ensuing 150 or so years?

There is a reason that the US has to invest such enormous effort into suppressing communism worldwide.

Not logically possible. If there are no real world examples, there has been nothing to be "suppressed". The Communist manifesto itself has not been - I have several copies of it. Efforts at introducing communism have not been - there were several attempts under that name, some lasting for as long as nearly 70 years before they collapsed under their own weight. If people can attempt to introduce a "fake" version, there is nothing to prevent other people from introducing the "real" version. Yet they have not.

The manifesto describes an economic revolution, in which laborers acquire the means of production and are then able to "throw off their yokes" so to speak. Those people who formerly acquired and maintained wealth simply by controlling the means of production would be forced to become contributing members of society again (rather than living on the fruits of other people's labor).

There really isn't anything to prevent "the workers" from setting up their own production facilities, thus "acquiring the means of production", yet they have not.

Marx described that an economy could not simply "decide" to be communist; rather it is comparable to an evolution of the economic model from feudalism to capitalism to communism. Russia and China skipped capitalism and went straight from feudalism to "communism." I would say those were more like feudalism 2.0; the laborers did not acquire the means of production, nor did the average person experience the economic freedoms embodied by capitalism until recently.

I agree. Communism as put into practice has amounted to feudalism 2.0. In China in particular, they have used the governing model produced by communism as a natural out growth of the production structure, but abandoned the economic model in favor of [mostly] State Capitalism. That "governing structure" is a natural outgrowth of communism because someone has to direct which workers do what - not all workers can screw the widgets together unless there are other workers producing the parts to be screwed together. Someone has to direct the work flow. That direction by itself will naturally produce a class which is "simply controlling the means of production" and making a living off of the actual work done by the workers. The natural line of drift from there leads into an oligarchy, just as it does in corporatism.

According to this line of thought, capitalism has two possible outcomes: "Economic Darwinism" or "Communism." This is because capitalism virtually guarantees that the minority of people will become very wealthy at the expense of the majority. Thus those who get exploited will either suck it up forever (economic darwinism), or they will revolt (communism).

That line of thought forces capitalism into corporatism. There is no inherent reason that simple capitalism will have to devolve into monopolies - indeed, it can't, unless there is a concentration of power which is produced by corporations. Without the collective power (yes, I said COLLECTIVE power - corporations are state-sanctioned collectives) behind a corporation, the next guy down the road can produce the same widgets, giving competition.

Socialization is one way that a capitalist economy transitions to a communist economy, and the US is one of the most socialized countries in the world. Socialization scares those who contribute nothing to the economy yet control the means of production (the "1%"); they rely on the laborers' economic insecurity in order to exploit them, and socialization undermines that by providing laborers with security. Social security, retirement, medicare, public education, etc. are all forms of socialism and indicative of a shift towards communism.

Yes, the US is a long way along that track, and it scares the crap out of me, even though I'm no where near this alleged "1%". What happens when "the workers" decide they're going to take MY means of production, and force me into their collective? A big, brief fight ending in my death, that's what - because I'm not giving up what's mine to thieves as long as I still breathe. Yes, when they come to take by force what they haven't worked for, it's theft, pure and simple.

I witnessed the collectivization of small-hold farms and the forced relocation of entire populations to where the State thought they should be. It wasn't a pretty sight. There were a lot of refugees from it. Where would US refugees run to to escape it? They won't. They'll fight to their last breath, because there is nowhere else to go to escape.

reply to post by brukernavn


Just logged in to express my compassion to you, about how sh*t brained some people are, by reading the reactions of your close people. I mean, leaving a fiancé because of some political opinions ? How superficial is that ? This means she didn't love you to begin with. Same for your friends and family.

Politics are just like philosophy, or musical tastes : they're a only point of view.

People denying you only because you do have different opinions is a shame, I seriously pity them for the total lack of perspective they have.
And americans in here who point a finger at you claiming that you're "against freedom" should start to look at how much freedom *they* give to people's opinions.

But at least Brukernavn, you ended up with something positive : Darwin took care of letting you know who were the people really worth loving : the ones who didn't left you.

p.s : I'm liberal.

In my youth I used to throw hands with the commies out of Canada all the time. It wasn't for political gain, just a means to pass the time and pay for my beer

My question to you would simply be "why would you want to join anything that has never worked"?

Do you honestly believe that communism will ever work?

Why not join the Utopian Society Political Faction (not real I hope).

Workers do not, and never will have ownership. It is the nature of humanity to either lead or be led. It has always been the case.

It reads well that everyone shares work and everyone shares reward. However TRUE communism is simply a fantasy.

Originally posted by krossfyter
...its kind of like communists talking smack about capitalists and capitalists telling commies that their definition of capitalist is wrong. each side sees has a different idea of what the terms mean...

Ironically though all those terms are left-wing terms, including capitalism. The first definition of capitalism comes from 'Organization of Labor' by Louis Blanc, a French socialist, and he defined it as, "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others." It was later defined as "the private ownership of the means of production" by Marx, which is still the accepted the definition...

capitalism
[kap-i-tl-iz-uhm]   Example Sentences Origin
cap·i·tal·ism
   [kap-i-tl-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

dictionary.reference.com...

Louis Blanc: The Organization of Labor

The right, the capitalists, have no right trying redefine those terms to suit themselves.

BTW Adam Smith was not talking about capitalism when he was talking about 'free-markets'. The term capitalism wasn't even in use when he was alive.

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all." Adam Smith

He was right. The state is for the protection of capital (property), a requirement for a capitalist economy, not a free-market economy. Capitalism is about those with capital exploiting those without, the rich exploiting the poor.
He wasn't talking about your personal property either, but commercial property.

LOL at the posts calming they love freedom yet condemn someone for choosing a political affiliation.
Oh and they say americans actually DO get irony.
Man

IF this story is true its pretty # i asked my parents on the phone like right now if i said i have joined the communist party what would you say. My mum said whats communist? (hahahaha) my dad said well i would of thought you've gone crazy but more power to you and no i wouldn't disown you, but i wouldn't brag about.

Reason why i don't believe the OP is because he said his fiance left him/her makes no sense. so he/she had no idea about your political views, no way.


ALSO i suggest every read the anderson lee book on Che Guevara its one of the most accurate and considered the best bio on him. It also explains why cuba is the way it is. Its a great book to read on the (once) secret past of america.

Originally posted by wagnificent

Originally posted by interupt42
Good luck in even getting advil or aspirins as a Cuban resident when you get headaches.

Why do you need pharmaceuticals for a headache? I'm pretty sure they have botanical remedies, and Cuba has community gardens...

LOL , community gardens. You better hope you don't get caught taking from a community garden in your own back yard.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen , but you could face prison time if you take more than your allocated ration assuming they even give you permission to take it in the first place, regardless if you take care of the garden or not.

However , the point is that there are two different worlds in Cuba one for the local citizens and a glamorous one for the tourist industry who bring their capitali$t money to play.

I think you should move to China, Russia, or Cuba where you'll feel right at home in your tiny, run-down apartment.

A couple of questions to those communist here that chose to not live in China,Cuba,etc because they don't consider them to b a TRUE communist society.

1. Although they are not what you would consider the true communist society, certainly they are more in line with the communist way than the so called capitalist society which you most likely live under.

A. Hence, wouldn't it make more sense to still move over to one of those countries as they are more in line with your believe system?

B. Wouldn't it be easier to sway their people to a TRUE communist society versus trying to convert a capitalist system where the majority of its people thinks is that worst thing possible?

C. Or do you consider the existing so called capitalist society better and more understanding than the so called communist societies?

2. Under the TRUE communist society is everyone equal?
A. If so than the janitor and the doctors must live the same lifestyle. Hence, why would the doctor become a doctor? I'm sure there are some that would do it because of the true desire to help people , but would there be enough doctors with that passion to help the majority of people?


Note I'm not attacking anyone here, I'm just asking some questions to see it from your perspective:

Originally posted by Bixxi3
LOL at the posts calming they love freedom yet condemn someone for choosing a political affiliation.
Oh and they say americans actually DO get irony.
Man

What's even funnier is the ones who cry about socialism and government are the ones who love the military. I guess they're entitled and their government jobs are acceptable, but the FDA and teachers are sucking the life out of the economy.

Originally posted by interupt42
A couple of questions to those communist here that chose to not live in China,Cuba,etc because they don't consider them to b a TRUE communist society.

Your point is mute because those places are not communist period.

Cuba was never communist, and was never meant to be.

The revolution was to rid the island of the Batista regime, and the capitalist exploitation from America. The only reason the US called it communist is because they accepted help from Russia after America refused. That is what upset the US and started the embargoes, which are the real reason for Cuba's problems as they rely heavily on imports.

Fulgencio Batista

The Cuba problem has nothing to do with communism. They just didn't do what the US wanted, and that was to exploit the workers.

In fact the reason so called 'communist' countries were demonized was not because they were 'communist', they weren't, it was because they were economically isolationist. The Wests capitalists were hell bent on globalism and those countries, along with some middle eastern nations, stood/stand in the way. You see capitalism has to continually create new markets in the search for profit. The harder it is the make profit the more ruthless capitalism will be.

Congratulations Comrade! I too am a member of the Communist Party USA, but I have not been as ostracized as it appears you have. I am very sorry to hear about you losing your friends and family, but if they left you because of your political affiliations then that probably means they were just looking for an excuse to leave anyways. Communism is kind of a touchy subject in america and indeed any other profit driven capitalist nations. To those who believe that communism lacks personal freedom I say that the freedom that capitalism offers is indeed the freedom to profit from an original idea, but simultaneously it is the freedom to steal the sweat of a million laborers for your own profit and then drop them all in the gutter when it appears your profits will decrease. It is freedom for those who have much. It is tyranny for those who have nothing. And that is just the point. Those who are wealthy or are used to wealth will agree wholeheartedly with capitalist ideals. While those who are poor and have never had a chance will see clearly the objectives and reasoning behind communism. Alas comrade rise! Actively seek out other left leaning people and organizations. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.

reply to post by brukernavn


Are people like you completely ignorant to the history of communism?...

Have you never heard, or red about what has happened in EVERY NATION where socialism/communism ws embraced?...

What do you expect to get from communism?...

For all of you who think you live in freedom and that communism is a against freedom:

Discurso antisistema Julio Anguita 99

NOTE: I'm sorry it's in Spanish, but you have the transcript below the video so you might try to get an auto-translation. Just remember this was a 99 speech.
Most of the things he says have been recycled and turned into conspiracy theories.

Here some excerpts from it:

Today on the Spain of 1999, on the Europe of 1999, on the world of 1999 is a moment of choosing between resignation and facing the facts. The resignation is the daughter of the totalizer talk like if she would be a new religion. There is no other truth than competitiveness, there are no other saints, no other powers than markets.

Never mind that water pollution, which pollute the rivers, seas or the air. Competitiveness, growth, and markets. That's all that matters. His power can not be answered, and also the existence of society itself shows that this is what produces well-being. And no matter what the street people see that welfare has not reached the child has to go to the employment agency that charges you 40% of the payroll by putting on a company.

The image, how well we live, bedroom stories, journals of heart, the frivolities, which make them forget what happens daily, or if it is, amounts to another category, as if it were real.

He who has to eat every day can not afford to lose, by an act of rebellion, the workplace. Rebellion has always come from those who ate every day, hence the great fault of many Spanish intellectuals that despite of eating well every day, not enough to have known that this is degradation! " Hence the great fault of many Spanish intellectuals who have failed to say enough to this situation of degradation! "

The resignation ... A resignation that comes from the daily evidence of unemployment that is true, they say that unemployment is reduced because the statistics say that when a person works two hours a week, no longer is unemployed. A statistical decrease of part-time work, for overtime imposed but not paid, the anxiety of whether I can work tomorrow. That's resignation. Resignation falling on a people who also realize, or does not realize he does not like or will not see it, or not let him see it, we're going backwards, we're getting to levels characteristic of the nineteenth century that this social security for all, that the issue of unemployment is steadily falling, contrary to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or the Constitution itself.

Former Romanian "Dictator"

"How can we speak of equality, freedom and democracy among the rich countries and those with less than $100 per capita. To make freedom happen it also means to make the material conditions happen."

Then he goes on and talks about some conspiracy theories as well...


Well, both of these guys belonged to communist parties so just don't think that here on ATS it's not a right place to talk about this ideas...

It seems that actually understanding what communism IS is quite rare.

double.......

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Nicolae Ceausescu LAST SPEECH 21.12.1989

".. it appears increasingly clear, that there is a joint action, of circles that want to destroy the integrity and sovereignty of Romania, to stop the construction of socialism, again to put our people under foreign domination."

All that actually happened... the nicest thing was that it start happening only some minutes later...

And if you want to see an unbiased documentary about Romania and the life of this guy have a look at this, it's 3 hours long, but it's worth it. Both of the links have english translation.

Autobiografia lui Nicolae Ceausescu 2010

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by interupt42
A couple of questions to those communist here that chose to not live in China,Cuba,etc because they don't consider them to b a TRUE communist society.

Your point is mute because those places are not communist period.

What is the difference between those communist countries and your utopian communist society? Which country exists worth being called communist under your definition or near communism? Also if you don't consider them communist than you can't consider the US as being a true capitalist society either. So all these arguments are theoretical and neither society has been proven to either work or fail.

So do you envision the US or another so called capitalist society a better place to start communism than Cuba,China,etc...?

Originally posted by ANOK
Cuba was never communist, and was never meant to be.

The revolution was to rid the island of the Batista regime, and the capitalist exploitation from America. The only reason the US called it communist is because they accepted help from Russia after America refused. That is what upset the US and started the embargoes, which are the real reason for Cuba's problems as they rely heavily on imports.


Fulgencio Batista

I don't disagree that they rely heavily on imports but there are many other countries out there that don't enforce the embargo.

Originally posted by ANOK
The Cuba problem has nothing to do with communism. They just didn't do what the US wanted, and that was to exploit the workers.

Now that is the funniest thing ever . I assure you that wikipedia missed the target on that one by galaxies. Are you suggesting that Cuba doesn't exploit its workers? Are you saying that the US workers are more exploited than the workers of Cuba?
.

Originally posted by ANOK
In fact the reason so called 'communist' countries were demonized was not because they were 'communist', they weren't, it was because they were economically isolationist. The Wests capitalists were hell bent on globalism and those countries, along with some middle eastern nations, stood/stand in the way. You see capitalism has to continually create new markets in the search for profit. The harder it is the make profit the more ruthless capitalism will be.

Corporatism yes, true capitalism no. True capitalism the market controls the products ,services and profits. What we have today is a Corporatism society that does the opposite and that is to manipulates the market for the minority stock holders and their bankers.

IMO communism sounds better in theoretical discussions but in practice i don't see it as manageable. I see capitalism as a form of macro management where communism is more micro management. Micromanagement is not sustainable in the log run.

Originally posted by TheJourney
It seems that actually understanding what communism IS is quite rare.

Probably just as rare as capitalism.

reply to post by TheJourney


I just can't believe this thread, so many people come on here posting without having read the thread and make the same ignorant points that have been addressed so many times already, it just makes them look incredibly foolish. Some people it seems did not even read the opening post and believed the OP was American.

I really am stunned how so many people have not done even the most basic of reading about communism or socialism, the amount of misconceptions about it amongst Americans (and the west as a whole) is staggering. Whoever tried to foster this lack of understanding has been very successful, no doubt the examples of tyrannical dictators falsely parading under the banner of communism helped their aims. Its easy to see why though, communism is a great threat for the ruling class, it would spell their demise so they have to try convince the average Joe that it is bad for them as well. But what is bad for the ruling class is in general good for us, they are our enemy, not our benevolent parents who look after us.