"Shills", Ad-Hominem attacks, Ego and posting on ATS.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by soaringhawk

 

It seems some people are confused as to what ad-hom is. It is not attacking an idea, government, country etc. It is a personal attack on another poster. Unless creation itself, the US government, or the USA decide to sign up,join and become members, attacking them does not fall under that TC violation.

One problem I see with forums, is that they close down discussions a lot, rather than giving the offenders a time out from the thread, and let discussion go on without them. Isn't there a way to post ban people from a thread? A time out so to speak?

Oh sorry soaringhawk, I meant to hit reply to thread, not reply to your post.

Maybe some examples would help?

edit on Tue, 05 Jun 2012 18:27:17 -0500 by TKDRL because: (no reason given)

It's a little bit more than simply insulting someone. It is specifically the act of insulting someone's character or profession, etc., as a means to discredit their ideas or opinions. It is a logical fallacy, since a person's profession or character have no real bearing on whether or not what they are saying is correct. In general, logical fallacy is anti to discussion and in most forums, including now this one, it is actively discouraged.

Nizkor has some good summaries of various logical fallacy, so I'll quote something from their site.

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). This type of "argument" has the following form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim is false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).

From: www.nizkor.org...

reply to post by hypervalentiodine


Right, but as it applies to TC, unless I am mistaken(which is possible for sure), it is only against TC if aimed at an actual member.

People ad-hom things all the time, such as the government, or fox news. I think that is allowed.

Oh yeah, coming from fox news, that's really credible

Stuff like that is ad-hom, but seems to be within TC here, unless I understand wrong.

Oh yeah "Insert Member Name" who claims to be a cop said it, we all know pigs are liars

That would be an ad-hom attack that shouldn't be allowed by TC.

Am I right?

I'd love, in an Ideal World, for ATS to contain only members who were thoughtful and polite.

I've run into a few who aren't, and after checking their post count, I sometimes alert, and sometimes don't. I don't want to play mini-mod, but there are people who get it, and are letting off steam, and those who don't, blatantly violating the T&Cs. Those who don't get it tend to spam a thread with continuous insults, and after three or four "unsavory" comments I won't hesitate to "alert", as they are disrupting a thread. On the other hand, there is often topical drift, which I don't report, because my major beef with others is about them NOT being polite and courteous, and refusing to engage in intelligent discourse.

If you bring something constructive to a thread, I have no problem. Rabble-rousing? Big turn-off, and I probably won't comment. Sometimes it's best not to say anything at all, and be better because of it.

I do appreciate the wide slice of society that presents itself here. If everyone was the same, life here would be boring after a while, and the mods would be out of a job.

Variety is the spice of life. Right?

Anyway, life goes on. ATS goes on.

I've been called a shill in a whole lot of threads I participated in, it is the gotcha moment where their argument falls to pieces and becomes as dust in the wind.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by hypervalentiodine

 

Right, but as it applies to TC, unless I am mistaken(which is possible for sure), it is only against TC if aimed at an actual member.

People ad-hom things all the time, such as the government, or fox news. I think that is allowed.

Oh yeah, coming from fox news, that's really credible

Stuff like that is ad-hom, but seems to be within TC here, unless I understand wrong.

Oh yeah "Insert Member Name" who claims to be a cop said it, we all know pigs are liars

That would be an ad-hom attack that shouldn't be allowed by TC.

Am I right?

In this forum, yes, that seems to be the case. In other forums I know of, they are not allowed at all and this is, in my opinion, a good thing and well suited for those particular forums. It encourages members to analyse the content of the source and judge the merit of said content based on proper logic and sound reasoning as opposed to judging it simply based on who is disseminating the information.

It can sometimes get a bit grey. For instance, I would trust the words of a physicist talking about physics more than I would trust a non-physicist. Even though that could be interpreted as ad hom, I don't think that the particular context I've described is truly based on fallacious logic.

I think also that the OP was mistaken in their interpretation of the phrase, as it seems to be more directed at telling people not to insult each other, which is not the same as telling members to not employ ad hom arguments in their posts. I don't honestly think that ATS staff would be prepared to wage against something so rampant (in this forum, at least).

man all i gota say is some of these people made an average FIVE posts a day for THREE YEARS defending 1 viewpoint on 1 incident in a forum where the overwhelming majority were inclined to disagree with them because of the kind of people attracted to this website
They have every right to disagree but theres is a difference about being passionate about a view and consistently posting in a forum where everyone is going to disagree with you (FOR YEARS).
It suggests a special interest that does not intend to be truthful, but rather manipulative
As someone else mentioned to me, no reasonable person holds strict mainstream views and goes to a conspiracy forum so consistently
It'd be like an atheist going to religious forums and arguing with them for years, often on a daily basis
And I'd like to clarify in no way did I intend, or suggest the instigation of a witch hunt, but rather a legitimate investigation of malevolent activity within the community in the pursuit of "denying ignorance"

EDIT: I think the best way to settle this is for the staff to investigate my findings for themselves. It would only be for the benefit of ATS & it's users.
If any mod is interested please feel free to contact me

I know I will link them eventually. I mean you know it is bad when I sit in the chat and say "Another hate on America thread" And ALL THE PARTICIPANTS in chat know who started the thread, without even looking.

reply to post by adigregorio

Ad hominem right there,

reply to post by seenavv


I personally was finding your thread quite ineresting...but what was exceptionally interesting...Is none of the ones being suggested as having a shillish behavior showed up in the thread...yet...it it had the term 911 in the title it would have been inundated with these persons of this behavior....does that necessarily make them a paid shill....I think not.....but could it be deemed reasonable to watch and see if these persons are adopting a behavior that is detrimental to allowing thread to successfully progress...I think so...also IMHO shutting a thread is not the best of approaches....possibly as was stated before...time out might be a better option ....WARNING IF THIS NEGETIVE BEHAVIOR CONTINUES THE RESPONSIBLE PARTIES WILL BE BANNED FOR 10 DAYS

Originally posted by adigregorio
Does this mean you guys are going to crack down on all the "I hate American" threads?

Since those threads are all based on ad-hominems, and ego posts. I can link the plethora of hate filled threads, if needed. (I mean I report them, but nothing ever happens.)

What else is a thread thats only purpose is to hate on an entire country? Bigotry, that's what!

Anyway, maybe ATS should eliminate that hate before worrying about this small stuff?

After you nix the anti-American sentiment, you can hit the anti-Californian one. Unless you guys wish to continue to promote the hate?

Tell you what, those threads can go once Americans stop making stupid, ignorant and hate filled comments on nations and people they do not understand, Oh wait, you are American, so it doesn't go two ways does it?

You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Yes but I'm on your side

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

I love this #

There is nothing wrong with factual, and reasoned debates.. But religiosity and politics do not bold well for such!.. It is impossible to not be passionate about these subjects, unless of course that the real reason why you want reasoned politeness is an attempt to further reduce those feelings to apathy under a politically correct guise??

You cant change human nature with a few T and C's .. However human nature does lend itself to following them!.. For the most part anyway..

I find the Mods do a good job on the whole here... But making ATS into a Victorian English gentleman's club will never work.. And make ATS bland..

Originally posted by Citybig

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Yes but I'm on your side

Excellent to know mate!

Thanks

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Would you please leave the room so that we may continue?

(the nerve of some people!)

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Would you please leave the room so that we may continue?

(the nerve of some people!)

Ad-hominem

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by daaskapital
You's are all talking about me. I know you are

Would you please leave the room so that we may continue?

(the nerve of some people!)

No, i will not leave the room. I believe that i am allowed to comment here

Please stop your Ad-Hominem attack against me

Thanks mate!

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
I've been called a shill in a whole lot of threads I participated in, it is the gotcha moment where their argument falls to pieces and becomes as dust in the wind.

I've been called an anti-American in a whole lot of threads i've participated in

Those types of comments made by the members of ATS are usually comments (as you suggested) which support the fact that they do not have a comeback, or have just realised that their argument is flawed and/or has failed.

Originally posted by daaskapital

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
I've been called a shill in a whole lot of threads I participated in, it is the gotcha moment where their argument falls to pieces and becomes as dust in the wind.

I've been called an anti-American in a whole lot of threads i've participated in

Those types of comments made by the members of ATS are usually comments (as you suggested) which support the fact that they do not have a comeback, or have just realised that their argument is flawed and/or has failed.

To be fair, you're called anti-american because thhhbbbpppt! doesn't translate well in written form.



Seriously? If anyone is a regular poster on ATS, they've probably been called a shill at one time or another.

reply to post by neformore


Thank you to ALL of the staff and those members who make this forum the great place it is. As a past forum owner, admin, moderator myself I know how hard your job can be and how thankless too. Often times the staff MUST DO what the staff MUST DO and often times the membership will not agree or like that but..............the door goes both ways. Nobody ever said a member must read and/or comment upon those threads or posts they do not agree with. Be the bigger person in that case and just move on. As one group of people I used to hang out with said "Take what you need and leave the rest". As one Moderator on the first page said "be the change for the better you want to see"(paraphrased) The fact of the matter IS we are all guests here and as such it is a privilege and NOT a right be allowed to be included into this forum family. When a staff member posts something to you do not go and argue the point back with them. Follow their directions and grow from it.A healthy forum is a happy forum and as such if you the member are not healthy in your own mind and you bring that here then the entire forum feels that and then the forum is not a happy community.

Nuff said.