"Shills", Ad-Hominem attacks, Ego and posting on ATS.

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by LiveForever8

 

Be the change you'd like to see. If you are not reporting T&C violations then how are we, a staff of just 70 supposed to comb over the thousands and thousands of posts that come up each day?

Now let's get something straight, a difference of opinion, is NOT a T&C violation. If you alerting things simply on that basis, then of course no posts are being removed as there is no violation.

You have the right to be disagreed with on ATS. It is your job to debate your point until your opponent either bows out and tells you that you are right, or that you are proven wrong.

We can't be responsible for the membership's apathy when it comes to alerting violations. We are NEVER going to catch all them. Never.

We rely on the membership to alert those posts so that we can do our jobs.

~Tenth

It is not our job to debate with a motivated shill until they surrender.

That sounds just like the advice given by projectjimmy, wherein he stated that it is our job to claw our way back from the pit, via voting. If we revolt, well, he'll be there to squelch that election as well.

Okay. What if the game is rigged, such that there IS NO ONE to vote for, who stands against the OS?

I find that I can manage the universe better, if I think in higher terms than mere 'voting'.

When I sense a shill, I go the direct route. There's no beating them back. They are squirting tears of OS, saving their skins, while losing their souls. Am I sure about this?

It is certain.

Those who cling to falsehoods are not seeking truth. I have no patience with lies, because it throws off my radar. If enough crap is thrown at the wall, enough stories and false opinions written, as if by REAL PERSONS, when in reality it is part of a well oiled machine, then even the wisest of readers will be brought down. I won't accept the job, moderator. There is no truth in lies. It's dirty water.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I think a lot of people here don't know the difference between a person having an interest in a subject and a strong opinion .. and a person being a shill .. and a person being a paid shill.

that is the heart of it FF
well put...
and from someone whom I have also have not always agreed much with and recently found respect ( which I should have had all along) for because I learned something from them...
like I was incorrect on details and the world DIDN"T END

well, yet anyway


eta
to David
IMHO ( Im not a good example other then I have come from often stamped to occasioanlly stamped but,,,)
I found all you can do is write for the readers that you don't see
they can decide between truth and shill
and according to the stats there are readers....
they are who the site, its advertizers, and us posters, want to reach

Do I understand correctly that two suggestions are being presented? One is "start being nice to each other," and the other is "let us know when someone isn't nice?" ("Nice" meaning anti-ad hominem and whatever else is not acceptable.)

I suppose a reminder to be nice every now and then works for the people who are already trying to follow the rules but forget occasionally, but the general opinion seems to be that it's not a solution.

Notifying the mods works for me more often than not, but it has problems, too. I don't normally stick around in a thread to see if an alert has any effect. If it does, the warning usually (and quite understandably) takes a long time. Some of the posters in this thread feel that the mods don't do a consistent or principled job. In short, this suggestion is not perfect (Although, what is?)

Is there some way that the posters in the thread can take more immediate action? For example, telling a poster that they are too full of hate to be posting is currently an off-topic post and gets warned more surely than the provocative post.

One suggestion that has been made, and rejected, is up and down flagging, or at least some way to indicate the thread is improper. But let me offer another suggestion. The "alert" feature sends a message to the mods explaining the objection you have to the post. Why not also send that same message to the thread you're in? It's immediate, doesn't require a new database for arrows, or anything else. It's immediate and gets the point across.

Problems? Well, say the complaint itself is hateful. You've just sent a copy of it to the mods and they'll be on you in a flash. Perhaps everyone in the thread starts complaining about everyone else? Easy, the mods get a flurry of alerts in one thread and "Closed for staff review" gets slapped on the thread in a hurry. What if the complainer is doing it for no good reason? Then he stands, accused by himself in front of the other posters who see what a jerk he is.

This suggestion is not perfect out of the box, but I do think it deserves a little thought.

One can almost commit to removing the first reply in every Original Post, it usually seems to contain some form of insult, degradation, dismissal, condescension, or attack. An odd phenomena to be sure.

One has to wonder if these people speak to their family and friends this way? There are a few egregious folks, science types, who seem to hide their attack in the form of some condescension-cum-idiot post and I've often wondered if this is how they speak with their colleagues. Several seems to be on some kind of self appointed quest to correct everyone of everything that isn't "right."

Truthfully, what was once a neat place to get all kinds of information and pov's has turned into a romper room of hate and "you're just stupid". One can hardly get through an esoteric post without some person or another posting derailing, negative or dismissive words.

If you don't agree at all, and don't want to contribute anything but vitriol, why post?

Originally posted by neformore


ATS Terms and Conditions

16) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

Read the relevant parts in bold.

Unfortunately, this is exactly why a plethora of intelligent, passive-aggressive miscreants exist on this website.

It's almost impossible to read a thread here where at least one of these folks is not "participating".

The overt, ad-hominem behaviour you're referring to, which clearly is in violation of the terms and conditions, is sometimes (not always) a direct result of some other member manipulating/baiting others into such behaviour.

Excuse? No.

While in some cases, the attack(s) are blatant and unprovoked, there are a number that are leached out by members who just love to "play" and prey on the emotions of others. This, IMHO is even more pathetic and irritating than someone who just shoots from the hip.

Not condoning either, just making an observation.

Intelligence is no substitute for wisdom.

Originally posted by Danbones

Originally posted by FlyersFan
I think a lot of people here don't know the difference between a person having an interest in a subject and a strong opinion .. and a person being a shill .. and a person being a paid shill.

that is the heart of it FF
well put...
and from someone whom I have also have not always agreed much with and recently found respect ( which I should have had all along) for because I learned something from them...
like I was incorrect on details and the world DIDN"T END

well, yet anyway


eta
to David
IMHO ( Im not a good example other then I have come from often stamped to occasioanlly stamped but,,,)
I found all you can do is write for the readers that you don't see
they can decide between truth and shill
and according to the stats there are readers....
they are who the site, its advertizers, and us posters, want to reach

edit on 5-6-2012 by Danbones because: (no reason given)

I think I'll be writing for readers that haven't been born yet. The future. Typewritten, from manuscripts. All I need is a safe house. You do anything an a computer, it is known, as quick as you log a key, it is known.

Digital revolution...it was a neat experiment.

Originally posted by davidmann
When I sense a shill, I go the direct route. There's no beating them back. They are squirting tears of OS, saving their skins, while losing their souls. Am I sure about this?

Point is, you have no idea who you are talking to, so how can you label them?

You describe them as a "shill" because they don't see the world your way.

Its this kind of thinking that caused the 9/11 forum to be put under close moderation scrutiny - the polarisation of opinions based on assumptions of what people think they know, when no one knows for sure.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by Danbones

 

Imagine how boring this place would be if we always agreed with each other.

agreed



P.S. I heard something about witches and being paid to post on the internet...so what's up with my paycheck is it going to be delayed again, or do i need to email wikileaks ..!

Good thread!

I've noticed a lot of short, witty, sarcastic quips that don't exactly personally attack someone per se but they're comment doesn't really add to the discussion.

It's a subtle, manipulative form of bullying / attacking and it really shows a lack of maturity.

My own opinion.

Thank you moderators...........only 70 for the thousands of posts per day

The problem is when do the mods decide it has become personal...and also does it give the perspective that ATS is taking sides on any given topic. Also If there are say two people of weak sphincters out there why should it be allowed to derail an entire thread.....send the perps to the corner and let the games continue.

Originally posted by neformore

the polarisation of opinions based on assumptions of what people think they know, when no one knows for sure.

isn't this what conspiracy sites feed on ?

-

i.e. ( Israel makes palestinian schoolgirls sexually promiscuous by selling them aphrodisiac bubble-gum )
i.e. ( Alien Reptiles are dominating the World )
i.e.( Wingdings font has a secret message of approval to kill Jews )
i.e ( Stephen King killed John Lennon )
i.e. ( Paul McCartney is dead. The current is just a lookalike )
etc...etc...etc...

i have to agree with above...is this not what conspiracy sites are going to do.....


THEY ARE GOING TO invoke EMOTION

reply to post by cerebralassassins


Other sides may feed off personal insults.

ATS doesn't.

Thats the point. Intelligent, on topic civil conversation is what ATS is about. Not petty schoolyard bickering and name calling simply because you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint.

Originally posted by neformore

Point is, you have no idea who you are talking to, so how can you label them?

You describe them as a "shill" because they don't see the world your way.

Its this kind of thinking that caused the 9/11 forum to be put under close moderation scrutiny - the polarisation of opinions based on assumptions of what people think they know, when no one knows for sure.

Exactly right, and this is something I wish more people would understand. Just because you have a feeling about something, does not make it so. I have feelings all the time about things and often times they are not right.

Having a sense that some one may be a shill, does not make them a shill and ultimately, there is no way for anyone to prove they are anything more than a member of ATS. Going the "direct route" and calling them a shill, does not hurt that poster...It merely gives off an impression that you are unable to defend your own position on the subject at hand.

Sensing that some one is a "shill" because they feel differently about something that you are so certain is the truth. That is another thing. People need to learn the difference between their opinion/belief and fact. They are not always the same thing.

For example, you may be certain that the Tooth Fairy is real.You may feel that you KNOW she is real. but really you don't know, and some one saying to you " No, I don't think the Tooth Fairy is real" does not mean they are a shill, it simply means they have a different belief then you do....

And there is no need to single people out and attack them or call them names such as shill, for a differing belief...If you do that, you will spend the rest of your life attacking EVERYONE. Why? Because no two people feel the same about everything.

So either, everyone in the world is a shill or we all just have our own beliefs and we should welcome them and be able to discuss our stance on an issue with out attacking the other person for daring to believe differently.

Who are you and I to say, "I believe this way, and you believe differently, so you are wrong..."? No one, that's who.

The way I see it, if you can't discuss a subject with out being able to defend your own stance and with out having to resort to just saying " You disagree? You are clearly a paid shill"...Well, maybe you shouldn't be debating in the first place...Because...Such attacks and inability to defend your position, hurt YOUR stance...Not theirs.

At the end of the day, what it comes down to is simple.

We can all have our own opinions, discuss and debate our differing beliefs....But we can and should be nice about it when we do so. Because we are all adults here and there is no reason to act anything other than civil.

Peace and love.

Originally posted by neformore
reply to post by cerebralassassins

 

Other sides may feed off personal insults.

ATS doesn't.

Thats the point. Intelligent, on topic civil conversation is what ATS is about. Not petty schoolyard bickering and name calling simply because you don't agree with someone else's viewpoint.

ah yes..that name calling is something i simply dont have time for, let alone hitting the reply button.But given that you and i are most likely of a similar age we can more less see that the younger generation would very easily type out phrases and words that simply do not fit within the ats side of things. Myself, i have singled out several ppl who i actually enjoy exchanging views and opinions through various threads. But as golden rule, i tend to not reply as i have a low tolerance level when ppl begin to act like 10 year olds and begin futile attacks that are similar to them holding a magnifying glass and trying to burn an elephant, the elephant being me.

Funny, I see this going on all over the place on ATS.

I know I've pretty much given up reporting posts that violate it since the enforcement is so arbitrary.

reply to post by stanguilles7


Is it arbitary, or is it that it just doesn't suit you?

Every complaint is looked at by the board staff. If something is complained about and not actioned it is because the staff haven't seen a serious enough T&C breach to warrant its removal - usually when it is a complaint about an opposing view point that someone has taken offence to.

A difference of opinion is not grounds for post removal. ATS is a discussion board.

That having been said, from time to time the board staff do miss things. However, if everyone "gives up" and doesn't alert them, then on a board this size we can't see everything all the time.

...end of the day everything is pretty much an opinion...such as this one I'm expressing right now, and so people will not all agree with it...


The whole labelling someone a 'Shill' thing - to me - is a bit like the ol' Lord Byron "He knew not what to say so he swore"...

Are there potentially paid 'disinfo' people floating around? Yeah, its possible.
Are we potentially wrong in whom we might suspect of being one? Yeah, just as possible.
Does it really matter if they are or aren't? Personally...not so much. Put your case forward, debate theirs, there is no real 'win' or 'lose' as such...just a presenting and sharing of information and opinion...


Another opinion: I personally feel theres a tad too much overinflated sense of self-importance...and dare I say mixed in with a decent dose of paranoia going on around here most days.

Own opinion: I personally don't think people are as important or such a huge amazing world-changing 'threat to THEM/TPTB/Insert-Buzz-Word-Here', you likely aren't some unique holder of some form of super-duper-wooooo-top-secret information of extremely importance as is seemingly made out here half the time...

....chances are you aren't as special and as connected and as crucial as you may believe you are...chances are you've missed the mark just as much as anyone else is apt to do - including myself - and might need to just *breathe* a little more and chill it down a notch...

reply to post by neformore


Look, anyone that's been a long time member cannot deny the attacks on Christians or even someone that believes in creation. There's having a discussion and then there's just posting to try making fun of someone. I don't care how subtle you may try to do it. It is the same and from now on I will report it. I'm not a fool.

reply to post by soaringhawk


It seems some people are confused as to what ad-hom is. It is not attacking an idea, government, country etc. It is a personal attack on another poster. Unless creation itself, the US government, or the USA decide to sign up,join and become members, attacking them does not fall under that TC violation.

One problem I see with forums, is that they close down discussions a lot, rather than giving the offenders a time out from the thread, and let discussion go on without them. Isn't there a way to post ban people from a thread? A time out so to speak?

Oh sorry soaringhawk, I meant to hit reply to thread, not reply to your post.

Maybe some examples would help?