Americans Bombed Pearl Harbor With Airplanes Designed To Look Japanese

Originally posted by blocula

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by denver22

 

"All men having power ought to be mistrusted"

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad"

James Madison 1751-1836

edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Irrelevant. Try again.

To say that this quote > "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" is irrelevant,is laughable...

Please show direct relevance to your assertion that the Americans attacked Pearl Harbor. You can't just wildly speculate that any given historical fact is false just because governments have the ability to be oppressive and tyrannical. A government's generally ability to be tyrannical is not specifically relevant in support of your specific claim.

All we are asking from you is direct and specific evidence that supports your claim. Like I said before, to simply state "Governments can and do lie" (no matter how true that may be) is not direct evidence supporting your claim that American government is lying about the Japanese being the ones who attacked Pearl Harbor.

Using your logic, I can make wild baseless claims too:

- I could claim that the Americans weren't responsible for the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and that it was someone else.

- I could claim that the Americans were not responsible for the Francis Gary Powers U2 spy plane incident, and the Russians were lying about it.

- I could claim that the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba was not carried out by the CIA and the Americans, but rather by the Russians, and the Russians lied about it.

- I could claim that the Americans were not responsible for shooting down that civilian Iranian airliner in 1988 killing 290 innocent people (including over 60 children), and that the Iranians were actually responsible, and were lying about it being the Americans who did it.


I don't believe any of the things I said above -- I really think it was the Americans who did all of those things (some of them terrible things) as history has shown us. However, using your logic, I can claim that the the Americans were innocent of all of these things, and the other governments are lying about American involvement.

Originally posted by blocula

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by denver22

 

"All men having power ought to be mistrusted"

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad"

James Madison 1751-1836

edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Irrelevant. Try again.

To say that this quote > "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" is irrelevant,is laughable...

Still irrelevant and just points to the paucity - not to mention the non-existence - of your evidence. You have no proof.

reply to post by AngryCymraeg
I suppose the fourth president of the united states james madison,who also happens to be the father of our constitution and the author of our bill of rights,didnt know what he was talking about? when he said "If tyranny and oppression come to this land,it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" and notice the word "guise" which means "disguise" which also means "disguised as"

reply to post by blocula

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" and notice the word "guise" which means "disguise" which also means "disguised as"

I know I'm going to regret getting sucked into this thread, but I don't think you understand the point Madison was making. "Guise" means "clothing." In modern American English, what he said was "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be wearing the clothes of fighting a foreign enemy." What he meant was that if the young nation involved itself foreign politics, it could lead to war, and that would lead to tyranny and oppression, either because the government would levy large taxes to pay for the war (the proximate cause of the American Rebellion) or the young nation might lose, and find itself once more a European colony.

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

I suppose the fourth president of the united states james madison,who also happens to be the father of our constitution and the author of our bill of rights,didnt know what he was talking about? when he said "If tyranny and oppression come to this land,it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy" and notice the word "guise" which means "disguise" which also means "disguised as"

edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Still irrelevant and yet another example of you trying to change the subject. Fail.
Oh and buy a dictionary. 'Guise' means clothing, not a disguise.

reply to post by DJW001
I think what he meant is that tptb will some day turn the usa into a police state,as a result of being attacked by an enemy who never even attacked us,as in pearl harbor,as in 911,as in homeland security,as in new world order...

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by DJW001

 

I think what he meant is that tptb will some day turn the usa into a police state,as a result of being attacked by an enemy who never even attacked us,as in pearl harbor,as in 911,as in homeland security,as in new world order...

Cites for any of this paranoia? Ah, I thought not. Evidence for anything at all?

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by DJW001

 

I think what he meant is that tptb will some day turn the usa into a police state,as a result of being attacked by an enemy who never even attacked us,as in pearl harbor,as in 911,as in homeland security,as in new world order...

Damn charlatans... if it does blame the assholes who hack steal money laundering child molesters rapists muggers etc. if it ever does..you don't see bloc do you.. something has to be done and soon!.
if we get a chip then at least they can track all of the above . but you refuse to look at it with all angles....

I used to think exactly the same.... no one could budge me.. that has now changed..
charlatans jump in and say your liberties your libereties ..........................
ok but this is the way the world is i am afraid.. i say do it catch the above. if it saves anyone by knowing what they do then ok so be it.. bring it on.. lets make the world a safer place.. MAKE A CHOICE BLOC
PROTECTION FOR YOUR LOVED ONES PREVENTION OF CRIMES OR LETS STICK TO THIS SH*TE SYSTEM NOW, WHERE PEOPLE ARE ROBBING PEOPLE BLIND HURTING CHILDREN..

reply to post by stumason

Good points you make about blocula, but you fail to support your own. You offered no proof in your post that the US had forewarning about pearl harbor and evacuated their carriers and used the event to spur the public towards war. You made declarations, but you need to have references available.

As for my own knowledge, it goes no deeper than the basics of WWII. I remember seeing on the history channel about a confrontation at sea that involved 200,000+ men and about 2000 US ships. And the bravery of soldiers rushing a stronghold. I remember seeing another show on the history channel about our early meetings with the japanese. Supposedly, we threatened them with war if they did not cooperate with us economically. But I haven't looked into that any further.

I never knew Paul Newman was a servicemen during WWII, did you? When I first read that, I was like "No way." But ya, he was just off the japan coast a few hundred miles in 1945.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
reply to post by stumason

 

Good points you make about blocula, but you fail to support your own. You offered no proof in your post that the US had forewarning about pearl harbor and evacuated their carriers and used the event to spur the public towards war. You made declarations, but you need to have references available.

As for my own knowledge, it goes no deeper than the basics of WWII. I remember seeing on the history channel about a confrontation at sea that involved 200,000+ men and about 2000 US ships. And the bravery of soldiers rushing a stronghold. I remember seeing another show on the history channel about our early meetings with the japanese. Supposedly, we threatened them with war if they did not cooperate with us economically. But I haven't looked into that any further.

I never knew Paul Newman was a servicemen during WWII, did you? When I first read that, I was like "No way." But ya, he was just off the japan coast a few hundred miles in 1945.

edit on 23-4-2012 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

they knew, they were just ill-prepared and well didnt expect the amazingly long range of the japanese planes

The real crime was one of incompetence on a huge scale. After all, the US had broken Japan's diplomatic codes and could sometimes decode messages faster than the Japanese themselves. The problem was not raw data, but its interpretation, evaluation and communication: it had to be used properly. This did not happen.

The administration and military were both guilty of a staggering lack of co-ordination between Washington and Oahu, and between different services. Japanese messages were decoded by the army and navy on alternate days and all too often one service failed to properly communicate their new intelligence to the other. And it wasn't just codes: on the day of the attack, Japanese aircraft were spotted by American radar. No action was taken: they were assumed to be a flight of B-17 bombers due in from the mainland.

It's not as if America wasn't warned. In January 1941 Ambassador Grew in Tokyo passed on intelligence that stated that Japan was planning the attack. It was disregarded. Warnings from military personnel in February and July were overlooked, largely because they recommended massive transfers of aircraft to Oahu, aircraft that America simply did not have. War warnings from Washington to Hawaii ten days before the attack were virtually ignored. Team USA was proving pretty dysfunctional.

www.bbc.co.uk...

but yea they were forced into attacking.

Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by denver22

 

"All men having power ought to be mistrusted"

"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

"It is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad"

James Madison 1751-1836

edit on 22-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Fine. James Madison said these things, and these words have some level of truth in them...

...

"Some" level of truth? He was the 4th president of the united states,the father of our constitution and the author of our bill of rights.Those word above and other he spoke were warnings for future generations, meaning you and i and they have echoed down through the ages and are still very relevant around 200 years later and they are true upon multiple levels and his use of "guise" and "pretended" might as well be saying "false flags"...

reply to post by stumason
Nazi germany and imperial japan signed a pact of mutual assistance on november 25th 1936,their anti comintern pact and both countries became allies...en.wikipedia.org...

Then on september 27th 1940,nazi germany,imperial japan and fascist italy signed their tripartite pact,then all three countries became allies...en.wikipedia.org...

So why did the japanese say nothing at all to anyone in nazi germany,not even hitler and why did the japanese say nothing at all to anyone in fascist italy,not even mussolini,about their vital and world altering plans to attack pearl harbor on december 7th 1941?

An attack that would have directly and severely affected both nazi germany and fascist italy...

Those are very serious questions that have yet to be answered...

I know why the japanese told the germans and the italians nothing,because japan didnt attack pearl harbor...

upload.wikimedia.org...

forum.axishistory.com...

reply to post by jonnywhite


By your own admittance, you know fudge all about WW2, but seriously dude, I'm not the one making rediculous claims. All the points, aside the foreknowledge one, I made have actually been made not only by others in the thread, but many are also matters of Public record!

As for the suspicion of US pre-knoweldge, it is widely known the US were monitoring the Japanese attache in Hawaii, had picked up some curious intel (although misidentified it), had even more intel passed from Duth and British agents and did know the Japanese fleet had put to see.

The aircraft were detected on approach to the island and hours before, the US had attacked and sunk a couple fo japanese midget subs. All of which should have had alarm bells ringing, especially seeing as the USN and Army had advised all it's Pacific commands in November '41 to be ready for War with Japan.

It is also a matter of fact all US carriers put to see only days before the attack, obstensibly to deliver fighter aircraft elswhere... Curious, as it would be the carriers that would win the Pacific war..

Here are a couple of links, the second is a rather thorough Wiki article that takes a neutral stance and dismisses quite a few of the "theories", so I can't be accused of cherry picking.

I would suggest, however, before picking holes in what was merely a summary of what has already been discussed, that you read the thread and you will find others had already put supporting evidence in for my points.

All I was doing was trying to get Bloc to address them and yet, even with his reply to my post, he has merely ignored these saliant points and just waffled on about an unrelated topic.

www.telegraph.co.uk...
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by blocula


IRRELEVANT!!!!

Jesus Christ man, answer a question when asked, not pose unrelated nonsense in a piss poor attempt to side step blatant, gaping holes in your theory.

You cannot dismiss even a single point from my post, can you?

Originally posted by blocula
I know why the japanese told the germans and the italians nothing,because japan didnt attack pearl harbor...

There were huge swathes of the Japanese Government that didn't even know the attack was happening until it did, in order to keep secrecy. Why on earth would Japan tell Foreign powers, who they didn't really like that much anyway and who were probably compromised, about their secret attack?

reply to post by stumason


'round', and 'round' ...........................it can continue.....(nearly) 'forever'.......

......perhaps this (bit older, but still relevant) thread from an ATS "site administrator"....or, "Site Administrator"... ( ).....would be useful, right now:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I will try...'try' ton "Add" to a bit of the above ( ^ ^ ^ ) by saying, that, in quite a few instances......there are FALSE 'accusations' of "trolling".......

.....something to ponder, very, very, very carefully......n'est pas??


(AND, at the risk of stating the obvious.....the ones who present facts and data that are part of reality? NOT "trolls".....should be obvious, to 99% of everyone.....but still, HAS to be mentioned, 'just in case' it is allowed to continue.......)......

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by jonnywhite

 

By your own admittance, you know fudge all about WW2,

The aircraft were detected on approach to the island and hours before,

I have read around 150 non-fiction books about world war two and i have stated that before and so in fact i do know quite a lot about that war,more than most people and as far as my supposed own admittance you mentioned above,i really dont know what your talking about...

I seem to recall that the few american servicemen flying american airplanes that happened to be in the air and american servicemen on the ground,all thought nothing about it and were not concerned or worried at all when they saw large formations of the supposed japanese airplanes flying into pearl harbor...Hmmmm?...I wonder why they would have though that way?

They only became alarmed when those airplanes they were watching started diving down and dropping bombs...

So those active servicemen stationed at their air bases didnt know whos airplanes they were?

And yet they were still not concerned about seeing them?

Even though they knew their own american airplanes were right next to them,still parked and idle on the ground upon the airfields and runways in plain sight?

Somethings amiss,somethings really wrong....

reply to post by blocula


Are you saying that the average "grunt" serviceman didn't react to seeing a formation of incoming planes because they were all in on this grand deception? That's a lot of people to trust with keeping such a huge secret.

I think it's more likely that the average serviceman didn't react to the formation of incoming planes because many of them could not fathom the idea of being attacked in Hawaii, considering that they were not at war at the time. They all knew that they may one day go to war, but it didn't occur to most servicemen in Hawaii that a war to coming to them anytime soon.

Many of them probably asked themselves "I wonder who those planes are", but they wouldn't necessarily automatically think "attack!" upon seeing a formation of aircraft. They probably simply assumed they were American planes.

Originally posted by blocula
reply to post by stumason

 

Nazi germany and imperial japan signed a pact of mutual assistance on november 25th 1936,their anti comintern pact and both countries became allies...en.wikipedia.org...

Then on september 27th 1940,nazi germany,imperial japan and fascist italy signed their tripartite pact,then all three countries became allies...en.wikipedia.org...

So why did the japanese say nothing at all to anyone in nazi germany,not even hitler and why did the japanese say nothing at all to anyone in fascist italy,not even mussolini,about their vital and world altering plans to attack pearl harbor on december 7th 1941?

An attack that would have directly and severely affected both nazi germany and fascist italy...

Those are very serious questions that have yet to be answered...

I know why the japanese told the germans and the italians nothing,because japan didnt attack pearl harbor...

upload.wikimedia.org...

forum.axishistory.com...

edit on 23-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

Do some basic, elementary, research. The Anti-Comintern Pact was against the Soviet Union. Oddly enough Japan didn't join the Italo-German attack on Russia in 1941, mostly because they got their butts handed to them at Nomonhan / Khalkhin Gol in 1939. So in other words the pact was more PR than an actual one. And during the war neither side really told each other what they were doing. So that shoots your statement down, yet again.

Originally posted by blocula
I have read around 150 non-fiction books about world war two and i have stated that before and so in fact i do know quite a lot about that war,more than most people and as far as my supposed own admittance you mentioned above,i really dont know what your talking about...

I seem to recall that the few american servicemen flying american airplanes that happened to be in the air and american servicemen on the ground,all thought nothing about it and were not concerned or worried at all when they saw large formations of the supposed japanese airplanes flying into pearl harbor...Hmmmm?...I wonder why they would have though that way?

They only became alarmed when those airplanes they were watching started diving down and dropping bombs...

So those active servicemen stationed at their air bases didnt know whos airplanes they were?

And yet they were still not concerned about seeing them?

Even though they knew their own american airplanes were right next to them,still parked and idle on the ground upon the airfields and runways in plain sight?

Somethings amiss,somethings really wrong....

edit on 24-4-2012 by blocula because: (no reason given)

They were expecting a load of B-17s from the Mainland that morning, plus Enterprise's planes were due later that morning. Oh and it was Sunday, in peacetime. The initial response to the attack was a) the Army Air Force hyas gone mad and b) it's an exercise. When things started blowing up they realised the truth.
There. Job done again. Case closed. This is getting to be ridiculously easy.