The Chemtrail Hoax

Well, Billybob, I asked if you could work through my questions answering them clearly point by point:

1 Who is carrying out the weather modification program?
2 In what way are they modifying the weather?
3 What technology are they using?
4 Why does it leave persistant trails?
5 Why are they modifying it?
6 How come not one single professional meteorologist or environmental scientist on the entire planet has noticed this massive weather modification program?
7 How do you know about it?

And all you could do is ramble on about patents, completely disagree with dh, then completely agree with him and then start some wild speculation about sparying "micro-fibres" into the air. What a clear and cogent agument you are making for the existance of chemtrails.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
Well, Billybob, I asked if you could work through my questions answering them clearly point by point:

1 Who is carrying out the weather modification program?

the military said they want to own the weather. who controls the airspace at 30000 ft.? who else could it be?

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
2 In what way are they modifying the weather?

are already answered. to reduce global warming. it can also be used as a weapon to cause drought.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
3 What technology are they using?

i don't know. am i in on it? there are several different patents or programs. one suggests mettalics(aluminum or barium), one suggests nanofibres, one suggests merely running the engines at a lower effeciency to increase particulates in the exhaust.
you don't read anything that backs the chemtrail theory up, do you, because links to this have all been posted here before.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
4 Why does it leave persistant trails?

it's majic, father. duh. the increase in particulates that come from the jets, makes more nuclei for cloud formation in lower humidities. if it is indeed a fibrous nanogel or similiar, this might explain the brushed out cotton candy look of these persistant clouds.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
5 Why are they modifying it?

see 2.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
6 How come not one single professional meteorologist or environmental scientist on the entire planet has noticed this massive weather modification program?

to quote from the disinfo handbook, ......PROVE IT.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
7 How do you know about it?

because i looked up and noticed, father demanding.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke
And all you could do is ramble on about patents, completely disagree with dh, then completely agree with him and then start some wild speculation about sparying "micro-fibres" into the air. What a clear and cogent agument you are making for the existance of chemtrails.

that's right. it's a double reverse hoax hex.

[edit on 8-7-2005 by billybob]

So, pure speculation from beginning to end then?

I really can't be arsed arguing with the last 2 people on the planet who believe in chemtrails. It's good that "the military" are stopping global warming though.

billybob's being sucked up by the masons
Don't expect much sense from him

Only two people left who are aparently still "chem-trail" hoax believers, and now they're arguing with each other.

Sometimes it's a sad old world....

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Only two people left who are aparently still "chem-trail" hoax believers, and now they're arguing with each other.

wow. the world's not black and white, afterall.
and perhaps there are lurker type people who will read these threads who will decide there ARE chemtrails, because they've followed the links to nasa sites, and military sites, and sites with patents, and corporations with programs and patents, and scientific studies discussing aerial spraying programs, and aircraft hardware for spraying, and histories of government experimentation on the masses using spraying programs, .....and even photographs of the 'elusive' chemtrail!
claiming you have won an argument doesn't make it so.
i could be wrong. don't you hate it when i say that?

if i'm the last guy in the world who believes we're screwing with the weather, i'll be even more shocked than i am by the fact that we're screwing with the weather(which actually wouldn't be hard, seeing as they showed us a film about weather modification(cloudseeding) when i was in grade four).

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
Sometimes it's a sad old world....

i can one hundred percent agree with you, off the street.


and, dh, lay back. you have no idea who other people REALLY are. i actually meet a huge cross section of people in my line of work. from the godfather to the house of parliament, from the near gutter to blue collar. the clothes they wear, and the company they keep is their own business. some of the most 'upstanding citizens', are the crappiest souls you'd never want to meet. some 'criminals' are the nicest. i despise witch hunts. it's why i'm so lenient on people, that to me, are literally my mortal enemies. i forgive them. i forgive myself if i'm wrong about them, or their programs. it's the actual christian thing to do.
i share many of your concerns, dh, about globalisation, privatization and fascism, ......chemtrails. let's not fight for no reason, yeah? god WILL sort them out. i only worry about learning. there's always another text.

The first of your six reasons...insinuates that because there is no logical reason for the spraying that it can't be happening. This very sense of reasoning is illogical. There is OFTEN no logical reason for the things that our governments do to us - not just in the US, but the entire world. In addition, I'm certain that you are not intending to maintain the opinion that our government WOULDN'T spray something on us, because they have before in plenty of proven (and admitted) events.

HR 2977 introduced by Dennis Kucinich to the 107th Congress specifically mentions the word "chemtrails" in a list of words defining what weapons they were trying to prohibit the use of. If the government admits that chemtrails exist, and some representatives are actively trying to do something about them, then it only helps the government that some of us ignore the evidence - the HR 2977 bill itself.

In addition, the media has covered this issue as well...it is just being ignored by the general populace, just like every other important issue. Please note the following article:

From the January 2001 Idaho Observer:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Radionics machine detects possible “simulants” in chemtrails

Results may shed light on the true purpose of the chemtrail campaign

Congress knows that the military has been covertly “spraying” the American public with known toxins since 1949. In more recent years the spraying, supported by Title 50, Chapter 32, Section 1520 of the U.S. Code, has become overt as military planes “legally”criss cross chemtrail clouds over American towns in broad daylight. What if they were spraying us with trace amounts of diseases? What if the trace amounts were not enough to make most healthy people sick but kept their immune systems “turned on?” What if such a scenario was intended to tire healthy people's immune systems out so that they may ultimately become immunologically defenseless?

By Don Harkins

With his “SE-5” plus radioanalysis machine Idaho Observer subscriber Max Willard, 67, of Roseville, Calif., found that chemtrails over his hometown contained a variety of contaminants that include DDT, hepatitis B, anthrax, DDT, and several varieties of flu and viruses associated with AIDS.

Willard was able to analyze the chemtrail clouds by photographing them and comparing the clouds' electrochemical signatures to those of various contagions until a match was found. The process Willard used would appear to be scientifically invalid. However, Willard employed the same process, resonance imaging, to determine the biochemical makeup of chemtrail clouds on earth that NASA scientists use to determine the composition of rocks, minerals and atmospheric gases on other planets.

The findings of Willard, whose professional experience was with industrial waste and water treatment, is supported by the congressional testimony of Leonard A. Cole, PhD., of Rutgers University and gives further insight into the mysteries surrounding the national “chemtrails” controversy.

Dr. Cole testified to the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs May 6, 1994, that, as part of chemical and biological weapons research since 1949, the U.S. military has been spraying the American public with a variety of substances. “Evidence suggested that the tests may have been causing illness to exposed citizens. Nevertheless, as army spokesmen subsequently testified, the health of the millions of people exposed was never monitored because the army assumed that the bacteria and chemicals [being sprayed] were harmless,” Dr. Cole, author of “Clouds of Secrecy,” told Congress.

Though the army “assumed” the substances, called “simulants” were “harmless,” the spraying of several substances have been discontinued amid concerns that they may be “causing disease and death.”

Among the “simulants” Dr. Cole claims the army has discontinued spraying on the pubic are the fungus aspergillus fumigatus (the contagion that causes the sometimes deadly disease aspergillus); zinc cadmium sulfide (a known carcinogen); the bacterium serattia marcescens (a bacteria that can cause infections that may lead to death); and dimethyl methylphosphonate (another known toxin and carcinogen).

In the chemtrail clouds over Roseville, Willard's SE-5 detected measurable levels of a variety of pathogens that have been associated with the manifestation of physiological complications such as cancer (medulliary, melanotic, scirrhous, thymus, carcinoma), mucosal infections, upper respiratory complaints, rheumatic fever, strep throat, staph infection, tuberculosis, hepatitis C, candida and cirrhotic and fungal liver disease. There have been epidemic numbers of these types of sicknesses reported throughout the nation in recent years. Those most affected are the elderly and small children.

However, the purpose of seeding American airspace with systemic amounts of toxic substances may be even more sinister than intentionally causing the old and the young to become ill. Several people, including clinical toxicologist Dr. Zane Gard and the late Dr. Clyde Reynolds, concur that exposure to traces of toxins can trigger an immune response in healthy bodies. If the immune system is effectively “turned on” all of the time due to the traces of toxins that have been intentionally seeded into our breathing mixture, then it can be worn out. If millions of people can slowly have their immune systems undermined in this perverse manner, then, when the time is right, they may more easily succumb to pathogens that are more deadly.

“How are we going to survive this as a people unless we somehow protect ourselves from the stuff they are spraying is with?” asked Willard.

Protection will not come from those we pay to represent us in Congress as Congress has been perfecting laws that legalize the use of “human subjects” for chemical and biological weapons testing since the late 1960s. Title 50, Chapter 32, Section 1520 of the U.S. Code makes it “legal” to test chemical and biological weapons on the unsuspecting public so long as unnamed public officials are “notified in advance of such a test or experiment” 30 days in advance. The law's most recent amendment was made in 1997 when Congress was pressured to change the law after thousands of irate Americans expressed their displeasure at being legally reduced to the status of lab rats. Congress responded by changing the law to forbid the use of unsuspecting human subjects for chemical and biological weapons research -- except under certain conditions that really mean the law was not changed at all.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Idaho Observer
P.O. Box 457
Spirit Lake, Idaho 83869
Phone: 208-255-2307
Email: [email protected]

I realize that the media is yet another tool of propaganda, however, I have personally videotaped chemtrails sprayed using planes from McConnell AFB - I live within one mile of the base and can see the planes very clearly. In addition, the planes I taped very obviously were spraying something - that then dispersed and fell slowly toward the ground, though the wind carried it sideways as well. I would be happy to provide the footage upon request.

Sincerely,
Bliu

Well, it's difficult to know where to start with this one, but here we go....

Originally posted by Bliu
HR 2977 introduced by Dennis Kucinich to the 107th Congress specifically mentions the word "chemtrails" in a list of words defining what weapons they were trying to prohibit the use of. If the government admits that chemtrails exist, and some representatives are actively trying to do something about them, then it only helps the government that some of us ignore the evidence - the HR 2977 bill itself.

He later withdrew the word claiming he didn't know what it meant when he included it. In what way does this consitute the government agreeing that they exist? Dennish Kucinch is not "the government".

From the January 2001 Idaho Observer:

Is this some kind of free paper? I can't imagine a professional journalist would ever print such nonsense.

Radionics machine detects possible “simulants” in chemtrails

Sorry I've no idea what radionics is - could you enlighten me?

With his “SE-5” plus radioanalysis machine Idaho Observer subscriber Max Willard, 67, of Roseville, Calif., found that chemtrails over his hometown contained a variety of contaminants that include DDT, hepatitis B, anthrax, DDT, and several varieties of flu and viruses associated with AIDS.

I've been coming on ATS for a few months now, but this is still one of the stupidist things I've ever read. I would love to see the science behind a machine that can be pointed at a cloud and tell you what viruses it contains!

For a start Hepatitis B cannot survive outside of some kind of fluid medium (blood or sexual fluids), it certainlty can't survive floating around at 30,000ft. The only 2 ways of detecting Hep B are either by finding antigens in the body which indicate that the immune system is fighting the virus, or by getting a sample of it's DNA.

Anthrax! If this was floating around in the air we would have more to worry about than a comprimised immune system.

I think the world epidemiologists would be very interested in a machine that could spot a flu virus at 30,000ft away. This Willard could make some serious money with his machine.

Willard was able to analyze the chemtrail clouds by photographing them and comparing the clouds' electrochemical signatures to those of various contagions until a match was found. The process Willard used would appear to be scientifically invalid.

I think "scientifically invalid" is the understatement of the year. It is just plain daft.


The findings of Willard, whose professional experience was with industrial waste and water treatment, is supported by the congressional testimony of Leonard A. Cole, PhD., of Rutgers University and gives further insight into the mysteries surrounding the national “chemtrails” controversy.

Dr. Cole testified to the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs May 6, 1994, that, as part of chemical and biological weapons research since 1949, the U.S. military has been spraying the American public with a variety of substances. “Evidence suggested that the tests may have been causing illness to exposed citizens. Nevertheless, as army spokesmen subsequently testified, the health of the millions of people exposed was never monitored because the army assumed that the bacteria and chemicals [being sprayed] were harmless,” Dr. Cole, author of “Clouds of Secrecy,” told Congress.

I'd really like to see the original source material for this and the context.

Though the army “assumed” the substances, called “simulants” were “harmless,” the spraying of several substances have been discontinued amid concerns that they may be “causing disease and death.”

You seem to be quoting someone here - who is it and what is the source?

Among the “simulants” Dr. Cole claims the army has discontinued spraying on the pubic [sic]

And what is he basing these claims on? If he ever made them that is.

In the chemtrail clouds over Roseville, Willard's SE-5 detected measurable levels of a variety of pathogens that have been associated with the manifestation of physiological complications such as cancer (medulliary, melanotic, scirrhous, thymus, carcinoma), mucosal infections, upper respiratory complaints, rheumatic fever, strep throat, staph infection, tuberculosis, hepatitis C, candida and cirrhotic and fungal liver disease.

No he didn't. This is just made up.

Protection will not come from those we pay to represent us in Congress as Congress has been perfecting laws that legalize the use of “human subjects” for chemical and biological weapons testing since the late 1960s. Title 50, Chapter 32, Section 1520 of the U.S. Code makes it “legal” to test chemical and biological weapons on the unsuspecting public so long as unnamed public officials are “notified in advance of such a test or experiment” 30 days in advance. The law's most recent amendment was made in 1997 when Congress was pressured to change the law after thousands of irate Americans expressed their displeasure at being legally reduced to the status of lab rats. Congress responded by changing the law to forbid the use of unsuspecting human subjects for chemical and biological weapons research -- except under certain conditions that really mean the law was not changed at all.

I'm not au fait with US law, but I find it very difficult to believe that the government can just expose who it likes to toxins. Can anyone enlighten me on whether this is true?

I realize that the media is yet another tool of propaganda, however, I have personally videotaped chemtrails sprayed using planes from McConnell AFB - I live within one mile of the base and can see the planes very clearly. In addition, the planes I taped very obviously were spraying something - that then dispersed and fell slowly toward the ground, though the wind carried it sideways as well. I would be happy to provide the footage upon request.

And how do you know they are chemtrails and not contrails then? I know, I know "they look different".

EDIT: spelling


[edit on 12/7/05 by FatherLukeDuke]

Bliu says:

Since our colleague Father Luke Duke has replied to many of your points, I will limit my reply to the initial point you raised.

The first of your six reasons...insinuates that because there is no logical reason for the spraying that it can't be happening. This very sense of reasoning is illogical.

I agree that such reasoning is illogical; however, I certainly did not mean to imply such a thing! The fact that there is no logical reason for something happening is not proof that it isn’t happening, but it means, that, until you can come up with a logical reason which I have overlooked, then the lack of reason pretty much diminishes the chances of whatever-it-is being true.

Regardless, though, if you will re-read my post, the first reason was that “The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence.” “Evidence” and “logical reason” are two entirely different things.

Now, sometimes people who believe in things with no evidence will say that ”absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” True. But absence of evidence is … absence of evidence! By evidence, of course, I mean things like results from in-situ collection of the plume (which has never happened); LIDAR analysis of the plume (which has never happened); statistically significant correlation between persistent contrails and admission to hospitals for cardiopulmonary complaints, corrected for time and distance of the fall of the aerosol (which has never happened); and so on.

What you appear to be saying is that the government has done bad stuff before, which means they could be doing bad stuff now (entirely possible and valid logic); but you also seem to imply that since that the government has done bad stuff before, they are doing similar bad stuff now (which simply doesn’t follow.)

In short, my first reason says that there is no evidence, and I stand by it. Neither you nor any of the “chem-trail” believers has come up with any evidence that “chem-trails’ are anything other than persistent contrails.

And remember, if you make an assertion that runs contrary to what most people believe, it’s incumbent upon you to come up with supporting evidence.

Another thing to add, normal contrails only form at high alititudes, usually from around 30 to 40 thousand feet where the air is around -40^C. There's been numerous tests using lasers and radars that show "chemtrails" being left at as little as 12 thousand feet, now here the air is far to warm to suspend the particles, especially for hours, so something lighter than water has to be used. And this is why I at least believe they are spray "aerosol" into the air.

Whether it's good or bad, we have the right to know, and if it were nonsense, surely people in political, scientific and other high positions would release a full investigation to at least put the peoples minds at rest.

As for the colour of the sky, I'm looking at it right now, its a perfectly clear day, not a cloud for miles... and the sky remains a misty, blue. Strangly there were large con/chemtrails being let off here just yesterday

To me, the secrecy of the whole thing seems to be ill intent.

IMO

Wow, and I just realized the last post was 3 years ago...

ok .. it's NOT a hoax check out the youtube video..

www.youtube.com...

they ADMIT they do it !

reply to post by Off_The_Street


Who wrote:

"Actually, the reasons that you have start-and-stop contrails is because the atmosphere is not constant and smooth; it�s very turbulent (which is why we have clouds and wind). It�s pretty common to have one spot at, say, 35,000 feet where the temperature/humidity is at �40/100%, yet only a quarter mile away, the temperature�s a degree or so higher, or the humidity is a percentage point less. That�s enough to stop the contrail from persisting."


I have one problem with this aspect. Here you imply that a contrail was present but dissipated in that stretch b/c of certain conditions.

My problem: I watched a jet fly over my house in real time, spewing a persistent chemtrail... which seemed to sputter a bit, then suddenly stopped for about 10-15 seconds... and subsequently resumed a thick chemtrail. I'm no pilot, but I assume it is not like an automobile where one can just take your foot off the gas, so to speak. Correct me if I am wrong.

I assume I am not wrong... so... regardless of all the rest of what you spewed as explanation, this small detail of yours does not hold water and subsequently the rest can be tossed also. Sorry you wasted your time.

*Further note: I do not think we humans are the target of the spraying. The target is the atmosphere for one reason or another. Aliens/UFO's, trying to fix effects due to HARRP, etc... something.

[edit on 4/3/2008 by RabbitChaser]

Originally posted by Uproot
Another thing to add, normal contrails only form at high alititudes, usually from around 30 to 40 thousand feet where the air is around -40^C. There's been numerous tests using lasers and radars that show "chemtrails" being left at as little as 12 thousand feet, now here the air is far to warm to suspend the particles, especially for hours, so something lighter than water has to be used.

You may like to provide references for such laser tests?

But anyway. Contrails can, in theory, form at 0ft (though usually only in the arctic regions) Do you know any reason why the air cannot be below -40c at an altitude of 12,000ft? I don't.


reply to post by Komodo


Not they don't. The German airforce admit to deploying anti-radar chaff during a NATO exercise which was then (allegedly) detected on local meteorological radar, causing complaints to be made.


reply to post by RabbitChaser


Understandable confusion. The atmosphere is very complex. But don't dismiss science just because you don;t understand it

Contrails form depending on temperature and humidity. If you fly an aircraft through a pocket of warmer air, for example, a contrail will cease forming until you move back into the colder air. Variations in humidity have the same effect.

This may help:

contrailscience.com...

contrailscience.com...

[edit on 3-4-2008 by Essan]

Just combined my posts into one

Mods please delete this



[edit on 3-4-2008 by Essan]

I've been observing the chemtrail/contrail theories for sometime now, but I noticed that the gathering of evidence (to prove or disprove) is shotty at best. Joe Redneck gathering dust in mason jars and dog bowls and testing it at a lab is not good enough for skeptics like myself to just buy.
I've noticed that there is a tremendous amount of emotion and hype in the media (underground or otherwise) and not enough actual evidence.

I've looked around the Internet and can't find anyone (besides quacks trying to sell their books and videos) who has applied the Scientific Method for investigating this alleged phenomena.
Working in an environmental/industrial laboratory for a decade on spectrometers of all sorts (Atomic Absorption/Atomic Emission Spectrometers) , I'm stunned to find that no one has tried doing a spectral analysis of contrails. All elements and molecules have emission/absorption spectra with well defined lines that can be analyzed in UV, visible, IR etc quite simply with the right lab equipment (they actually use AA/AE via ICP (inductively coupled plasma) to analyze constituents such as Ba, Na, & Al. Oxides and salts of these metals can be analyzed in the IR spectrum as well as other molecules. Astronomers use this technique all the time to determine the makeup of stars.
The solar spectrum is pretty much set in stone as is the absorbance of H2O in vapor - this, coupled with other measurements would prove beyond a doubt whether or not any spraying is taking place.
Just my two cents worth (if I still had access to this kind of equipment, I would do this analysis myself - though a makeshift spectrometer could probably be made with stuff from Edmund Scientific or a school science supply store). Radars and highoutput lasers (for bouncing coherent light beams off the "trails" and analyzing the absorption results) would require a lot more dough!
ANYONE UP TO THE CHALLENGE?

I have been told and read so much propagander about "Chem-trails I did some research of my own and here are my findings.

The temperature is sub zero at the high altitude jet aircraft fly. With the hot exhaust being discharged ice particles form. those ice particles are heavier than air and begin to fall, as they fall the disipate and spead out in a cold vapour mist. As the mist warms and equals the surrounding atmosphere they become patchy and eventually disapear. The time taken before they vanish will depend on sunlight reflecting of the stratosphere and how hot the air is at that level. Chem-trails are more visable during the Summer than the winter. because the sun moves into the southern hemisphere.

I have watch aircraft over and over and the exhaust streams being dispersed, they are a natural occurance and disipation of a flight path by a jet engine at high altitude and nothing else.

I would think that with so many people trying to prove everything is a conspiracy by the US government, they would have concrete proof of airborne chemicals collected by halo parachutesist or wheather baloons.

there is no proof because they don't exist.

Also you need to remember that if it rains the chemicals would be absorbed and returned to the earth and oceans it is not and no record exists.
Do not associate acid rain with chem-trails acid rain is the result of Carbondioxide and fossil fuel pollutants.



Chem-Trails are Fiction and nothing else.

So if its a chemtrail, and ewe are all being programmed of poisoned?
why hasn't anyone like green peace collected the chemicals for analysis?

Jet aircraft fly around 30000 ft, HALO's are done from 33000 ft it would be easy to collect a sample from a jumper on his way down. Even his clothing would absorb the chemicals and prove positive to testing.

Chemtrails are a hoax created by anti Government Liberals and funded by Communists.

The hoax has been dying for years. It first came about when webTV was in vogue with the conspiracy types. It was funny once when Carnicoms tried to ban a troll with a webTV IP address, it kept most of his users from getting access. He had to unblock that to have any activity on his board again.

His site used to be the biggest chemtrail site, now it is a few nuts arguing over religion, and carnicom himself is reduced to doing dentistry on himself, and now growing mold cultures.

Chemtrail Central is even a lot less active than it used to be. Chemtrail tracking USA yahoo group was famous for banning any chemtrail believer that did not promote the right version of chemtrails.

reply to post by Off_The_Street


That still doesn't explain why there is SO much increased air traffic
and why 'contrails' (call them what you will, whatever) have been
seen in crisscross patterns because planes do NOT fly like that. There
are EXTREMELY strict air traffic patterns and I have seen 'trails' that
deviate from these patterns.

All of your arguments sound vaguely similar to me (like saying the
same thing six times, which is fine, because sometimes you have
to do that) and you sound like you have unwavering confidence in
modern government systems. If you would, read The Revolution:
A Manifesto by Ron Paul (from an objective and unbiased point of view)
and see what happens.

Now, so you can't judge me as a right-wing conspiracy-theorist, I would
like to let you know that I plan on conducting my own objective study
of 'trails,' complete with barometer and thermometer readings, wind
records, and observations, in order to see how the weather affects 'trails.'

Bottom line: just look at the modern institution of education and the
failing economy and so on and so forth. The government hasn't been
doing a very good job, so who knows? I don't think chemtrails are
beyond fathomable possibilities.

Read up on the NWO. Scary stuff, that.