Rising gas prices are due to free market forces...

Originally posted by David9176
It's Obama's fault. I'll believe nothing else! He's purposely raising gas prices all on his own because it's an election year and he doesn't want to be re-elected!

Hey ya David. Well ... it IS partly obama's fault. It's free market forces, and OPEC, and Iran and etc etc etc .. but Obama is in the position of POTUS and he is supposed to be using all his international experience and connections and political expertise to get oil prices to stay at a reasonable rate ... by working with OPEC and the rest of them.

Oh wait .. that's right .. he doesn't have international experience, or connections or political expertise .. he's a just freak'n community organizer. My bad .. nevermind.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by David9176
It's Obama's fault. I'll believe nothing else! He's purposely raising gas prices all on his own because it's an election year and he doesn't want to be re-elected!

Hey ya David. Well ... it IS partly obama's fault. It's free market forces, and OPEC, and Iran and etc etc etc .. but Obama is in the position of POTUS and he is supposed to be using all his international experience and connections and political expertise to get oil prices to stay at a reasonable rate ... by working with OPEC and the rest of them.

Oh wait .. that's right .. he doesn't have international experience, or connections or political expertise .. he's a just freak'n community organizer. My bad .. nevermind.

But if Obama interferes with all of those things, isn't that very act being against free market principles?

Wouldn't that be BIG GOVERNMENT getting involved?

See the conundrum?

To add to my last post, demand is manipulated in a capitalist economy. It's not a true supply and demand system when the supply can be controlled by a minority.

If I owned an apple orchard, and there were 50 people who needed apples, I could grow only 25 apples and thus work less, have less labour costs, and charge more for those 25 apples, than if I grew 50 apples and satisfied everyone's needs.

(assuming you grew apples and not apple trees lol)

Originally posted by mastahunta
It is fixed for me, my friends and my family, we all drive pretty much the same places every week.
There is some small fluctuation, but for the most part my car demands a certain amount every week
regardless of geopolitical concerns. The same can be said for the majority of people who have a job
and a routine, these people represent the large portion of the consumer market.

I don't think you understand the market. Demand is growing because 2 billion + people around the world want the same lifestyle that westerners have. And they are working towards that. As they work towards that, their consumption needs increase, increasing demand.

Supply is controlled, not fixed, supply can be controlled by the speculators who can also be the producers.

Are you sure about that? North American supply has currently stagnated due to shipping, refining, and distribution issues...not production issues. Has nothing to do with the speculators, although they have managed to profit quite well from their ability to read NA politicians like books.

That being said, the ME is definitely having production issues.

Ironic isn't it, best supply and distribution hub has production problems, and the best production hub has the supply and distribution problems...thank you Murphy.

Yes but the investor class can manipulate the supply and then they can speculate on the results of their
control of the supply.

The investor class theoretically could, but that would require millions of people working closely in unison.

And people would eventually consolidate it all over again, this current climate evolved from exactly
what you just said, this is a result of that.

Maybe, maybe not.

Originally posted by ANOK
It's fixed in the sense you have no choice. You can't go to another product to replace it. That is why alternatives to oil have been suppressed. It's the reason for the wars in the ME. In order to maintain oil as a high profit commodity. In fact war is very good for that anyway, tanks, ships, planes use lots of fuel, so war is always good for the oil industry. A simple redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top. We are exploited in many ways.

Baloney. We all have a choice. We choose our luxuries and current lifestyle. That, so far, has been the collective choice of the west. A choice that you have participated in. How can I even say you...easy, you required one of the most oil intensive products on the planet just to post in this thread.

Supply is heavily controlled. It's the only way capitalists can control their profit level. If they overproduce they lose profit. The oil industry has complete control over their product, its distribution and it's market price, simply by controlling it's production. The oil industry can control the military through it's market power, no one can do without oil. The oil industry is the shadow government.

You might want to go tell that to the odd 250,000 people working night and day to increase supply right now in northern Alberta.

Or the elsewhere in the world.

The simple fact of the matter is that supply will never increase as fast as demand when multiple industries rely on one industry for supply. No 'shadow government' required.

Originally posted by ANOK
To add to my last post, demand is manipulated in a capitalist economy. It's not a true supply and demand system when the supply can be controlled by a minority.

If I owned an apple orchard, and there were 50 people who needed apples, I could grow only 25 apples and thus work less, have less labour costs, and charge more for those 25 apples, than if I grew 50 apples and satisfied everyone's needs.

(assuming you grew apples and not apple trees lol)

edit on 2/24/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Then how do you explain when supply was double demand?

A better analogy is that you grew 50 apples.

25 people came and bought 25 apples.

They thought that your apples were so good they told all of their friends.

The next day 200 people came to buy apples, but you only had 25 left.

You would like to service every client, but you just can't grow apples fast enough to meet their increasing demand.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Semicollegiate

 

In a free market system there would be much less credit and therefore much less speculation. In a free market system all credit would be limited to the amount of money deposited in savings. Savings would increase in value not just because of interest (if any) but because productivity would decrease the prices of all manufactued items over time and so increase the buying power of all money over time. Calling our system a free market system is like saying anything yellow is a piece of the sun.

First of all, a "free market" is an entirely theoretical concept that can't work in today's world without screwing over a majority...but that's beside the points.

Nowhere in the free market theory does it state taking up credit is forbidden or not possible. And why on earth would it hamper speculation? I suggest you buy a text book about the theory rather than getting your information about it from opinion blogs

The free market is the most real market.

The free market is any buyer and seller who transact goods without any qualifications or outside interference.

The free market hasn't exsisted since taxes, tarrifs and regulations became the paradigm.

In a free market system, credit is (greatly reduced to) the amount that an economy has in savings. Our credit system is based on the fractional Reserve Principle which by changing the fraction means our credit is unlimited.

Unlimited credit is not part of the free market and since we are in debt there would be no speculation at this time in a free market system.

Here is an awesome video.

Google Video Link

Kinda long 3 hours, I try to summerize it here
www.abovetopsecret.com...

"The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Great Depression and the New Deal" has many explainations about how a free market would work.

You can watch Robert Higgs discuss his body of work for free at
www.c-spanvideo.org...
Robert Higgs is a free market, Ludwig vonMises, Ron Paul type economist

Originally posted by ANOK
To add to my last post, demand is manipulated in a capitalist economy. It's not a true supply and demand system when the supply can be controlled by a minority.

If I owned an apple orchard, and there were 50 people who needed apples, I could grow only 25 apples and thus work less, have less labour costs, and charge more for those 25 apples, than if I grew 50 apples and satisfied everyone's needs.

(assuming you grew apples and not apple trees lol)

edit on 2/24/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)

Your example assumes you have a monopoly on apple production. That is possible, but you can't make people need apples.

The only real solution to a monopoly is to use a different product, and that is what should happen.

For crying outloud people think will you THINK!

OIL is a global commodity that is traded from London to Tokyo and everywhere in between YOU CAN NOT regulate the entire world.

No matter how much you want or try to.

The largest oil company in the world the first trillion dollar corporation is not American not British and not even from opec

Petrochina not even those evil American oil companies come close.

Originally posted by Semicollegiate
Your example assumes you have a monopoly on apple production. That is possible, but you can't make people need apples.

Capitalists have the monopoly on producing goods for the market, over the rest of us, that was my point.

In my example 'apples' were a necessity for life, so yes they needed them. Just like this system has created the necessity for oil, the capitalist system that has been manipulated by the oil companies in order to maximize their profits.

The only real solution to a monopoly is to use a different product, and that is what should happen.

But there isn't a practice alternative to oil, that is the point, that is why they can manipulate it's supply in order to maximize profits.

This is why alternatives, until at least more recently (too little too late), have been oppressed.

I see people just want to find someone to blame, but we are all to blame for letting this happen.

Originally posted by peck420

I don't think you understand the market. Demand is growing because 2 billion + people around the world want the same lifestyle that westerners have. And they are working towards that. As they work towards that, their consumption needs increase, increasing demand.

My demands and most Americans demands are fixed to a pretty consistent approximation.
When the Oil Barons were brought to D.C to explain the surge in oil prices, summer 2008,
John Hofmeister testified that he believed that over half the prices were due to speculation
and manipulation of supply.

Are you sure about that? North American supply has currently stagnated due to shipping, refining, and distribution issues...not production issues. Has nothing to do with the speculators, although they have managed to profit quite well from their ability to read NA politicians like books.

And who controls the entire distribution chain? The consumers do not... Shipping, refining and distribution
are all points where the market price can be manipulated. do you remember the California Energy """crisis"""?
There was no crisis, the crisis was designed by the market players and speculative ploys all along the
production pipeline.

The investor class theoretically could, but that would require millions of people working closely in unison.

Look what the banks did in and prior to 08? The investor class created the supply, demand and product.

reply to post by ANOK


Yes there is a defacto monopoly of power, both political and physical, somewhere in the system.

We have been put into dependancy by the way they raise us, but everyone can still escape the grid if it is important enough to each individual.

Like an addict we can't just stop using oil, but there will be a replacement for it one way or another because it will run out or become less useful eventually. The sooner we run out of oil the sooner the next technology will come into use.

I agree that the alternatives have been hindered or outright supressed. The wealth and liberty that western civilization lost through two world wars would have been enough to get us to the next level in technology.

Ultimately, oil is just a source of energy. We will live with less energy and or find another way to take energy out of the surrounding environment.

Living with less energy, in supply and demand terms, means paying the same amount but getting less. I'm trying to get a handle on the idea of energy in the real world and looking for ways to make it at home.

Solar heat to compress air so to run one of those Indian compressed air cars.
Or solar pannels to charge up an electric car.
Or solar electricity/heat to make acid in order to break down wood (cellulose) into sugar so as to make alcohol. (Buterol is almost identical to gasoline in density, atomic structure, and energy content)
Use wind or hydro for electricity
use biology to make faster growing plants for chemicals
Use magnified solar light to heat a container of waste and reclaim flammable gasses.
make/recycle water
etc.

If we had more liberty, less government and no world wars we would be alot further along technologically.

Originally posted by neo96
For crying outloud people think will you THINK!

OIL is a global commodity that is traded from London to Tokyo and everywhere in between YOU CAN NOT regulate the entire world.

So the world dictates to America?

Originally posted by mastahunta
My demands and most Americans demands are fixed to a pretty consistent approximation.
When the Oil Barons were brought to D.C to explain the surge in oil prices, summer 2008,
John Hofmeister testified that he believed that over half the prices were due to speculation
and manipulation of supply.

How many times do you need to be told that your 'local' situation is not the total market?

As for John Hofmeister...'he believed'...he could not prove.

It is interesting that he would like to blame speculators (who are no saints) and private market manipulators, when the biggest market manipulator is the government via taxes.

And who controls the entire distribution chain? The consumers do not... Shipping, refining and distribution
are all points where the market price can be manipulated. do you remember the California Energy """crisis"""?
There was no crisis, the crisis was designed by the market players and speculative ploys all along the
production pipeline.

Who controls the distribution chain? Shareholders. Who are shareholders? Consumers, producers, distributors, etc, etc.

As for the California Energy Crisis (Western US Energy Crisis), even FERC states that the manipulation was just as much the fault of the California government by way of how poorly and over complicated they made the market with their 'partial' deregulation.

As for the investors that took part, there are criminals in every single facet of life. From farmers to investors.

Look what the banks did in and prior to 08? The investor class created the supply, demand and product.

No. Look at what some banks did. Not all banks participated, some even threw fits about the banks that did.

Are from the US?

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by neo96
For crying outloud people think will you THINK!

OIL is a global commodity that is traded from London to Tokyo and everywhere in between YOU CAN NOT regulate the entire world.

So the world dictates to America?

This is a very serious question.

Have you ever taken an economic course?

Yeah it is a serious question that is simply answered

The World is dictating the price of oil the US Government is dictating the price at the pump just like in every country every single one pays a different price at the pump.

The of course the price is the pump is different in every single state no person in this country pays the same price from east coast to west coast that means that is dictated by each state.

Originally posted by neo96
Yeah it is a serious question that is simply answered

The World is dictating the price of oil the US Government is dictating the price at the pump just like in every country every single one pays a different price at the pump.

edit on 24-2-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

It is simple, but many people don't realise that a term like 'global market' does not care about politics. It is merely a term to represent every person that will potentially, or is currently, demanding a product.

As for the rest, pretty much.

reply to post by peck420


I thought so to think Globally instead of locally with regards to the topic and they would get it.

Guess they just don't want to.

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
reply to post by mastahunta

 

If you don't have to take delivery of your investment you minamize costs but this opens you to fraud if you oly have a piece of paper to hold.

and speculation is inherent to any free market however, the rules which apply to the futures market is where the failure lys.

I think those are good points,

Thanks.

What would you change?

We have to go back to a futures market where the investor must take physical delivery of the goods they are buying ... this will help ensure the integrity of the system ... also the futures markets have a new off shoot with the CDOs and the mortgage products which all need regulation.

Originally posted by peck420

How many times do you need to be told that your 'local' situation is not the total market?

As for John Hofmeister...'he believed'...he could not prove.

It is interesting that he would like to blame speculators (who are no saints) and private market manipulators, when the biggest market manipulator is the government via taxes.

Hofmeister is far more expert than you, sir. A portion of the government who has access to regulators
and actuals thought so too. It was not proven because the GOP blocked the measure. I can't prove that
your ass smells bad from time to time, but if your wife says it so I will tend to believe her. In fact, I
know enough make my own conclusions on both matters.

Who controls the distribution chain? Shareholders. Who are shareholders? Consumers, producers, distributors, etc, etc.

and can you account for the other positions of the share holders? Can you account for the executives who
make the internal policy, or the business arrangements they make?

As for the California Energy Crisis (Western US Energy Crisis), even FERC states that the manipulation was just as much the fault of the California government by way of how poorly and over complicated they made the market with their 'partial' deregulation.

Are you making excuses for the companies that acted in bad faith? who would have thunk it, I am
shocked!

The entire electrical grid was used to suppress supply during times of peek demand, the knowledge
of the partially fixed demand was understood which enabled companies to schedule maintenance
and refurbishment's during peak demand times, which would use the principles of supply and demand
to artificially raise the price structure. Exactly what Hofmeister alluded to in his testimony.

As for the investors that took part, there are criminals in every single facet of life. From farmers to investors.

are you trying to disperse blame from the elites yet again? Its like every other sentence is a cop out.
Investors and Bankers are the least imprisoned or prosecuted portion in the US population.

Water is Wet!

No. Look at what some banks did. Not all banks participated, some even threw fits about the banks that did.

Are from the US?

Good for those banks, they should have ran ads and helped the public become aware.