Rising gas prices are due to free market forces...

Originally posted by PaxVeritas

Originally posted by mastahunta
To put it simply.

If speculators were not FREE to speculate, we would not have to pay for their
speculation.

Nobody is FORCING speculators to drive the costs of gas up and up and up,
they are FREE to do it, so they do it with impunity.

Like I said, WALL STREET is it's own economy. We have two economies.

And Wall Street works at the behest of Government's LACK of enforcing current laws that are already on the books.

Well good, now we are talking, government is doing a piss poor job of enforcing current laws.

A system of legal monopolization exists because those at the top LET it.

They WANT it, it is by design. But in the case of Oil that design is largely due to
the fact that only Elites can invest enough to enter the market, which is a natural
market force that serves as a barrier.

This is not a Free Market, this is a hijack by International thugs. You and I both seem to agree on that so go from there. Because saying this REPRESENTS the free market is not going to answer the problems.

If you start with a faulty premise, you're going to get faulty results. I'm simply reminding you that the base premise of the OP is off.

It is not off...

Speculation is a free market force, it is Free for anyone to do, unless it is barred by law.

You are not being logical when you insist that speculation is a forced practice, speculation
exists in the Drug trade which is NOT regulated by anything but market forces.

Originally posted by PaxVeritas
One can argue 'Capitalism". But then again Corporatism and Oligopoly hardly even counts as THAT.

I think you have a very romanticized view of what capitalism is.

The term capitalism was first used by the French socialist, Louis Blanc to mean, "the appropriation of capital by some to the exclusion of others." It was later defined to mean, "The private ownership of the means of production". It is the system that replaced feudalism, after laws were changed that allowed land owners to sell parcels of land and deny it's use by the commoners, who had during feudalism, by law, the right to use unused land to live from. This forced the commoners into factories and mills in order to feed themselves, exploited by the land owners who's wealth increased substantially. It was left wing worker organizations, that worked to improve this system, that gave you workers rights. If not for the socialists, the commies, the dirty reds, the leftie scum, you would still be working in a sweat shop 80 hours a week next to your children and grandparents.

Capitalism, socialism, is who owns the means to produce for the market, not the market itself.

Capitalism has nothing to do with 'free-markets'. Socialism is free-markets, do some research. Capitalism is only free-markets for those who make their living from their capital. For the rest of us who only have our labour to sell, it is not a free-market. We are not free to sell our labour as we see fit, we have to rely on a 'private owner' to give us a 'job', at their discretion. Work should be a right, not a privilege. Labour should be treated the same as capital. Workers need to own the means of production in order for that to happen, because under capitalism the worker has to produce more than they are paid for, in order for the private owners to make profit from that workers labour.

Originally posted by neo96
The only monopiy that exists when it comes to oil is that the value of the dollar and the price of a barrel of oil are tied together.

Since the Federal Reserve values and depreciates its value a barrel of oil in 1980 was around 20 bucks a barrel would be worth over 55 today.

Like i said a lot of factors that play into the price at the pump and yeah the keystone could have introduced new supplies that millions of American's could be using and wait for it end our "Foreign Dependency" in the Middle East.

People wanna bring all those troops home RIGHT? that was one way to accomplish that.

It's not about supply so much as reckless speculation driving up the price

That pipeline wouldn't have brought down the price of oil in the medium/long term.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by mastahunta

 

Price speculation has a larger impact on oil/gas prices than not only supply, but also stuff like a crisis in the Middle East...it accounts for the majority of price movements.

Yes and it makes the problem even worse because because they Elites can manipulate
geo political conflict to further the lucrative benefits of speculation. They own the TVs
so they focus the public on the "problems" which in turn validates the problems.

Originally posted by neo96
The only monopiy that exists when it comes to oil is that the value of the dollar and the price of a barrel of oil are tied together.

Since the Federal Reserve values and depreciates its value a barrel of oil in 1980 was around 20 bucks a barrel would be worth over 55 today.

Like i said a lot of factors that play into the price at the pump and yeah the keystone could have introduced new supplies that millions of American's could be using and wait for it end our "Foreign Dependency" in the Middle East.

People wanna bring all those troops home RIGHT? that was one way to accomplish that.

Neo the point is, the rising gas prices do nothing to stop the gas exportation that is going on today.

We make gas here, yet we export it, nobody is forces them to export it, they could DECIDE to
keep it here. So how are we going to end our dependency if it keeps being exported?

Originally posted by mastahunta

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by mastahunta

 

Price speculation has a larger impact on oil/gas prices than not only supply, but also stuff like a crisis in the Middle East...it accounts for the majority of price movements.

Yes and it makes the problem even worse because because they Elites can manipulate
geo political conflict to further the lucrative benefits of speculation. They own the TVs
so they focus the public on the "problems" which in turn validates the problems.

Look who donated a TON of money to promote those wars in the Middle East, and then check who's speculating on the oil price at the same time...and you know EXACTLY who's responsible for high oil prices. The Koch brothers are a GREAT example of that. Makes it abundantly clear that voting for anyone they support is a really dumb idea...unless you like paying more for oil

reply to post by MrXYZ


I love paying more for some crap that spews out of the ground, everyday
when the prices don't go up I cry a little for the job creators.

It is distorted because the actors who manipulate the prices are also the same
voices who back the FREE MARKET politicians who simple rig the system
for the companies and elites who fund them.

If they want free market, they need to clean their own house.

The reason the FREE MARKET system doesn't work is because of
people who cry free market the loudest, the corporatists.

In a free market system there would be much less credit and therefore much less speculation.

In a free market system all credit would be limited to the amount of money deposited in savings.

Savings would increase in value not just because of interest (if any) but because productivity would decrease the prices of all manufactued items over time and so increase the buying power of all money over time.

Calling our system a free market system is like saying anything yellow is a piece of the sun.

reply to post by Semicollegiate


The fact remains that Speculation is a free market force, I just think it is erroneously
applied to Oil because Oil is not subject to supply and demand because demand is fixed
and supply can be manipulated by the suppliers in relation to a constant high demand.

reply to post by Semicollegiate

In a free market system there would be much less credit and therefore much less speculation. In a free market system all credit would be limited to the amount of money deposited in savings. Savings would increase in value not just because of interest (if any) but because productivity would decrease the prices of all manufactued items over time and so increase the buying power of all money over time. Calling our system a free market system is like saying anything yellow is a piece of the sun.

First of all, a "free market" is an entirely theoretical concept that can't work in today's world without screwing over a majority...but that's beside the points.

Nowhere in the free market theory does it state taking up credit is forbidden or not possible. And why on earth would it hamper speculation? I suggest you buy a text book about the theory rather than getting your information about it from opinion blogs

Originally posted by mastahunta
reply to post by Semicollegiate

 

The fact remains that Speculation is a free market force, I just think it is erroneously
applied to Oil because Oil is not subject to supply and demand because demand is fixed
and supply can be manipulated by the suppliers in relation to a constant high demand.

Demand is not fixed. Has been growing daily for a very long time.

Supply is not fixed. Has fluctuated up and down constantly with a general upward trend. Expected to plateau and fall by some and explode upwards by others.

Speculation occurs because demand is very close to maximum supply levels (has been above current supply levels 3 times in the past 12 months). Increase supply substantially and it eliminates most of the speculation by default.

If oil production was run on a true free market basis, cost of gas would go up very high very fast. Let's start the bidding for this oil well of unknown quantity at....

Originally posted by peck420

Originally posted by mastahunta
reply to post by Semicollegiate

 

The fact remains that Speculation is a free market force, I just think it is erroneously
applied to Oil because Oil is not subject to supply and demand because demand is fixed
and supply can be manipulated by the suppliers in relation to a constant high demand.

Demand is not fixed. Has been growing daily for a very long time.

Supply is not fixed. Has fluctuated up and down constantly with a general upward trend. Expected to plateau and fall by some and explode upwards by others.

Speculation occurs because demand is very close to maximum supply levels (has been above current supply levels 3 times in the past 12 months). Increase supply substantially and it eliminates most of the speculation by default.

If oil production was run on a true free market basis, cost of gas would go up very high very fast. Let's start the bidding for this oil well of unknown quantity at....

edit on 24-2-2012 by peck420 because: (no reason given)

The majority of blame for high oil prices goes, without a doubt, to Bernake and speculators.

Originally posted by mastahunta
Simply put, gas prices rising in the U.S -

They are rising because the marketeers are free to speculate and manipulate
the prices of Gas and any commodity. We pay until it hurts so some people
can take our financial pain and profit from it. Essentially we pay more so that
people are free to screw us more, simply because they have the power, resources
and desire to do so.

Can any person opt out of gas prices???

NO you cannot, you are forced to pay for a global casino in the name of some
twisted sense of "FREEDOM".

So in the end you are forced to go along with something that further squeezes
you more and more. A new form of extortion that is build right into the fabric of
our society, its hard to detect, but it sure as hell is there demanding a tribute
and your hard earned dollars regardless of how you feel about it. They are free
to do it and you are free to accept it.

Since you cannot opt out of paying for the casino of the investor class, do you really
have a CHOICE? Is this really Freedom? The markets are completely free to extort
money from each and every person with a gas tank to fill and I think it is crap, I am
tired of paying for people and schemes that do nothing productive for society.

If this is freedom, where is your choice to opt out or change the system?

edit on 24-2-2012 by mastahunta because: (no reason given)

The fact is that the FED is responsible for most of the inflation in gas prices. Where do you think all of that money that the FED is pumping into the economy is going? The demand has not really increased and the supply of oil is plentliful. There is a small bottleneck when it comes to refining oil into gasoline.

However, the main cause of oil price rise is not only speculation but speculation where all you hold "paper" not oil! When that rule requiring an investor to take delivery was done away with it opened the door to phony paper futures ....

Bernanke believes that the FED can pump unlimited amount of money into the economy at minimal risk because he does not see gold as money. Bernanke can not see the forest through the trees because he fails to see that gold and other commidities (including oil) are types of "physical money"

Originally posted by peck420
Demand is not fixed. Has been growing daily for a very long time.

It's fixed in the sense you have no choice. You can't go to another product to replace it. That is why alternatives to oil have been suppressed. It's the reason for the wars in the ME. In order to maintain oil as a high profit commodity. In fact war is very good for that anyway, tanks, ships, planes use lots of fuel, so war is always good for the oil industry. A simple redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top. We are exploited in many ways.

Supply is not fixed. Has fluctuated up and down constantly with a general upward trend. Expected to plateau and fall by some and explode upwards by others.

Supply is heavily controlled. It's the only way capitalists can control their profit level. If they overproduce they lose profit. The oil industry has complete control over their product, its distribution and it's market price, simply by controlling it's production. The oil industry can control the military through it's market power, no one can do without oil. The oil industry is the shadow government.

reply to post by mastahunta


If you don't have to take delivery of your investment you minamize costs but this opens you to fraud if you oly have a piece of paper to hold.

and speculation is inherent to any free market however, the rules which apply to the futures market is where the failure lys.

Originally posted by mastahunta
reply to post by Semicollegiate

 

The fact remains that Speculation is a free market force, I just think it is erroneously
applied to Oil because Oil is not subject to supply and demand because demand is fixed
and supply can be manipulated by the suppliers in relation to a constant high demand.

Any time buying and selling are involved a market exsists by definition. In that sense i see that you are correct.

But attributing the total situation of the present to a free market is wrong because the factors that make up the current situation are not because of the free market.

Fractional reserve banking makes credit easy and plentiful. It is a facilitator of all of the distortions in our economy and is not a free market phenomenon. Without easy and artificial money to lend, the speculators would only be able to use the money they personally have in savings (a much smaller amount) and speculation would be a source of credit or income to the producers of commodities rather than a source of control over prices.

In a free market everything cost what it is worth or no one will buy it.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
The majority of blame for high oil prices goes, without a doubt, to Bernake and speculators.

Speculators do cause a great deal of issue, but I would hesitate to say that they cause the majority.

I would say that the industry, the governments, and the consumers all cause equal amounts of issues as the speculators.

We are all necessary for the oil market to survive (speculators are not), yet we do nothing about the speculation.

A week long boycott of all liquid oil products by the West would put the vast majority of speculators out of business...still hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by peck420

Originally posted by mastahunta
reply to post by Semicollegiate

 

The fact remains that Speculation is a free market force, I just think it is erroneously
applied to Oil because Oil is not subject to supply and demand because demand is fixed
and supply can be manipulated by the suppliers in relation to a constant high demand.

Demand is not fixed. Has been growing daily for a very long time.

It is fixed for me, my friends and my family, we all drive pretty much the same places every week.
There is some small fluctuation, but for the most part my car demands a certain amount every week
regardless of geopolitical concerns. The same can be said for the majority of people who have a job
and a routine, these people represent the large portion of the consumer market.

Supply is not fixed. Has fluctuated up and down constantly with a general upward trend. Expected to plateau and fall by some and explode upwards by others.

Supply is controlled, not fixed, supply can be controlled by the speculators who can also be the producers.

Speculation occurs because demand is very close to maximum supply levels (has been above current supply levels 3 times in the past 12 months). Increase supply substantially and it eliminates most of the speculation by default.

Yes but the investor class can manipulate the supply and then they can speculate on the results of their
control of the supply.

If oil production was run on a true free market basis, cost of gas would go up very high very fast. Let's start the bidding for this oil well of unknown quantity at....

edit on 24-2-2012 by peck420 because: (no reason given)

And people would eventually consolidate it all over again, this current climate evolved from exactly
what you just said, this is a result of that.

Originally posted by peck420

Originally posted by MrXYZ
The majority of blame for high oil prices goes, without a doubt, to Bernake and speculators.

Speculators do cause a great deal of issue, but I would hesitate to say that they cause the majority.

I would say that the industry, the governments, and the consumers all cause equal amounts of issues as the speculators.

We are all necessary for the oil market to survive (speculators are not), yet we do nothing about the speculation.

A week long boycott of all liquid oil products by the West would put the vast majority of speculators out of business...still hasn't happened yet.

I am not sure how the consumers cause the problem, besides allow it to occur in the first place.

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
reply to post by mastahunta

 

If you don't have to take delivery of your investment you minamize costs but this opens you to fraud if you oly have a piece of paper to hold.

and speculation is inherent to any free market however, the rules which apply to the futures market is where the failure lys.

I think those are good points,

Thanks.

What would you change?