Understanding Gnosticism; or, a quest for accurate knowledge

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Akragon

 

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Thanks for the bump and encouragement.
I should have expected this thread would be way over my head....but hey, I'm learning, and thanks for the linkydinks....
really interesting stuff.

I have learned a lot from you more experienced students here.....
but am completely aware I have a llooooooonng way to go.

We all have a long way to go my friend... But

he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be Saved

reply to post by wildtimes


When "son of man" is used to describe Jesus it is used to make a distinction between the story/analogy of Jesus and God himself. The duality is ours but does not actually exist in God/Truth. We have a story and history about ourselves as humans seeking Truth. But this story does not exist in Reality. We have a story about the son of man that also does not actually exist accept as a story.


Here are a few passages..

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 8:58-59: "Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham 1was born, I am.”

Does this man that God is/was actually a man named Jesus?? No. It means that Truth/God consciously manifested as a man named Jesus conscious of himself as God for the express purpose of being Truth. Where as all other humans on earth did not come into this non-Reality consciously as Truth itself.

I don't know how to articulate it because it's like an eye trying to look at itself.

Yes we are all God.. in that nothing but God/Truth exists. But we are not God in that we are bound by delusion. God is not bound by delusion. He doesn't have an ego.. he doesn't die.. he doesn't need food, water or anything.

If you presume Jesus is God/Truth and the kingdom is Reality of oneness and God... just as a test.. and re-read the gospels they reveal something completely different. Because what he says means something very different when it's coming from the Truth.

reply to post by wildtimes


Told ya

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thanks brother i will definitely check out those links. No doubt that the bible, no matter what may have been done in an attempt to manipulate the message, still oozes the Truth.. Because in Reality nothing exists but Truth!

peace!

reply to post by rwfresh


This one is found in Ode 26 of Odes of Solomon:

11 Who is able to interpret the wonders of the Lord? 12 For he who could interpret
would be dissolved and would become that which is interpreted. 13 For it suffices to know and to rest: for in rest the singers stand, 14 Like a river which has an abundant fountain, and flows to the help of them that seek it.

It is sufficient to know the truth of love and rest from worry and disbelief. Once a person finds the love of Jesus in their hearts, the new word transforms every step. Rest from mistrust and fear is found. Even thought the world be against the true believer, the heart is at rest.

Ode 28

4 I believed; therefore I was at rest; for faithful is He in whom I have believed: 5 He has richly blessed me and my head is with Him: and the sword shall not divide me from Him, nor the scimitar; 6 For I am ready before destruction comes; and I have been set on His immortal pinions: 7 And He showed me His sign: forth and given me to drink, and from that life is the spirit within me and it cannot die, for it lives. 8 They who saw me marvelled at me, because I was persecuted, and they supposed that I was swallowed up: for I seemed to them as one of the lost; 9 And my oppression became my salvation; and I was their reprobation because there was no seal in me; 10 Because I did good to every man I was hated, 11 And they came round me like mad dogs, who ignorantly attack their masters, 12 For their thought is corrupt and their understanding perverted. 13 But I was carrying water in my right hand and their bitterness I endured by my sweetness: 14 And I did not perish, for I was not their brother nor was my birth like theirs. 15 And they sought for my death and did not find it: for I was older than the memorial of them; 16 And vainly did they make attack upon me and those who, without reward, came after me: 17 They sought to destroy the memorial of him who was before them. 18 For the thought of the Most High cannot be anticipated; and His heart is superior to all wisdom.

There is no question that the Psalmist is referring to Jesus. We get this from Ode 42 and others. I use this one because it references how God makes a congregation to hear the word. Just like what we are doing here and now, the word does not return void, but accomplishes God's will in us. Is God speaking here? I think he is.

19 And I made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips: 20 Because my word shall not be void: 21 And those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness. 22 And bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee. 23 For we see that our death has not touched thee. 24 Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our Redeemer. 25 And I heard their voice; and my name I sealed upon their heads: 26 For they are free men and they are mine.

LINK

Ode 31 speaks of that endurance you are referring to. This Ode is a picture of Jesus suffering at the hands of the Sadducee and Pharisees. He kept his tongue and endured hardship for the salvation of the world.

1 The abysses were dissolved before the Lord: and darkness was destroyed by His appearance: 2 Error went astray and perished at His hand: and folly found no path to walk in, and was submerged by the truth of the Lord. 3 He opened His mouth and spake grace and joy: and He spake a new song of praise to His name: 4 And He lifted up His voice to the Most High and offered the sons that were with Him. 5 And His face was justified, for thus His holy Father had given to Him. 6 Come forth, ye that have been afflicted and receive joy, and possess your souls by His grace; and take to you immortal life. 7 And they made me a debtor when I rose up, me who had been a debtor: and they divided my spoil, though nothing was due to them. 8 But I endured and held my peace and was silent as if not moved by them. 9 But I stood unshaken like a firm rock which is beaten by the waves and endures. 10 An I bore their bitterness for humility’s sake: 11 In order, that I might redeem my people, and inherit it and that I might not make void my promises to the fathers to whom I promised the salvation of their seed.

We often shake our fists at our leaders, but the truth of the matter is already know. They are judged for their works against God already. Peter (Rome) was judged when Christ said these words:

Matthew 16:18
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (Petra) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Petros is the movable stone. Petra is the immovable rock and foundation. The stone is to be rolled away to reveal Christ, the foundation stone mentioned above.

Matthew 7:24

Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Luke 20:17

Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone'?

The builders are the masons who built the world. Jesus is the true builder and the one that is rejected by the world. Our job as believers is to embrace the true source of this work of love. Like I was saying before, if you read scripture by symbols, the truth emerges clearly. Gnostic texts are a reflection of this attempt to read the symbols. Revelation only comes fully at the end when we can look back and see clearly. Isaiah said this:

Isaiah 46:10

I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

This gives us an indication of how time actually works. As we move away form the perfection in the garden by our own will, time is in reverse as we see it flowing forward. In reality, the perfection that started in the Garden is where we return after experiencing movement away. This opposite movement is then restored back to the beginning my God. Time is merely a reflecting point until we see the error and come back to where it all starts.

Confirm this form the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas:

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Consult the Gospel of Thomas thread I did a few months ago: LINK

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Thanks brother i will definitely check out those links. No doubt that the bible, no matter what may have been done in an attempt to manipulate the message, still oozes the Truth.. Because in Reality nothing exists but Truth!

peace!

In this Ode, we see the Hermetic Axiom, "As above, so below":

ODE 34.

True poetry--pure and simple.

1 No way is hard where there is a simple heart. 2 Nor is there any wound where the thoughts are upright: 3
Nor is there any storm in the depth of the illuminated thought: 4 Where one is surrounded on every side by
beauty, there is nothing that is divided. 5 The likeness of what is below is that which is above; for everything
is above: what is below is nothing but the imagination of those that are without knowledge. 6 Grace has been
revealed for your salvation. Believe and live and be saved.

Above is all that is real. Below is the imagination of those that are without knowledge. Grace (Unmerited favor from God) has been revealed (Through Christ) for our salvation. Believe and live and be saved. How does a person live after believing in Christ? Love others. Where is life found? Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Him. Taking the name of the Lord is taking on his character in thought, word and deed. Apart from this, we take the name (Character) in vain. One goes hand in hand with the other. Faith without works is dead.

reply to post by wildtimes


Allow me to point to a danger in Gnostic texts. The term hermetically sealed comes from Hermes and the preservation of truth. Many, not all, Gnostic texts are interpretations of symbols that have erred in rightly dividing truth. To rightly divide truth, we use the seven laws of rightly dividing truth as listed by Hillel. LINK These originate with Hermes (Thoth / Enoch).

All scripture is a division of truth found in the Torah. What follows the Torah is the revelation of God from the prophets of old. The Bible is the best kept and sealed truth we possess. Find error if you want, but the truth within the symbols has been preserved by the symbols. This is how truth is kept hermetically sealed. Correctly unraveling the symbols from the original truth is accomplished by rightly dividing the symbol from the context of where it is found in history. The history we read about in the word is the context to read the symbol. God is the author of this word, just as he is the author of the history that reflects the symbols. Hebrews reveals how this works.

Hebrews 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 9:23

It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

We are the image of God. The image is only the reflection of what it represents. The reflecting point is how we learn. Symbols are what is reflected.

Now take a look at an incorrect Gnostic interpretation of a symbol. Ophite Diagram

To see why this is not rightly divided by the true symbols, read the Philosopher Origen's commentary: Commentary

If you examine the two images of truth here, you see that the error comes from misreading the original symbols. This is the error of the Gnostic and why Christ said the way was narrow. Exoteric dogma makes an idol of the material world. Esoteric spirituality makes an idol from the spiritual practice. It will not be found in a complicated unraveling of reality to serve the self. It is found in the simple love that serves others. This one single truth can then be used to see the rest clearly by the Work of God and not the imaginations of men for selfish gain. Love can only give. God can only give. Mercy is the grace that is given to us that we do not deserve. Simple truth is all we need from the symbols to find salvation and true life in this world.

The only way to see symbol and truth clearly is to see it from the filter of Christ on the cross. This is why I am trying to show you that the Bible is the only true hermetically sealed wisdom we need. Examine all you want from the Gnostic sources. You will eventually come right back to the true source of the refection.

reply to post by rwfresh

If you trouble yourself with the validity of the story of man/Jesus you risk your own salvation.

Ah, I see. Fear and threats of condemnation if I don't believe what you are telling me to believe...
sorry, but
I don't play that game, thanks very much.

It is not up to any other human being to tell me I'm "risking my own salvation." When someone tells me that, I generally dismiss their opinions as nonsense, and particularly if that someone offers no links or sources other than their own fantabulous knowledge which overrides everyone else's.

Why? Because it's unkind, and un-Christlike, and I won't participate in that kind of behavior

My salvation is not at risk, my friend. Neither is yours, but nevertheless, trying to scare people into doing what you say is a major Fail with me. It's why I left organized religion in the first place (Episcopal/Church of England).
I didn't subscribe to what I was hearing from the first moments of comprehension; that I was unworthy, hopeless, and doomed.

The Truth, to use your word, is that Jesus's spirit -- the Divine spirit -- resides in us all, and we really don't need to worry or be afraid. What we can do is dispel that fear, by treating others the way we want to be treated. Fear-mongering is the opposite of Christ's teaching.

Our destination, or 'destiny' is what it is. That is the Truth. It does not depend on somone knowing or not knowing, believing or not believing. We are born again ... we 'must be'. And when we realize this, and that our spirits do not die, we can relax and enjoy our life, and by doing so, encourage others to LET GO of their fear.

It's all gonna be okay.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Confirm this form the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas:

18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is.

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Consult the Gospel of Thomas thread I did a few months ago: LINK

Okay, I consulted the thread.
I have read the Gospel of Thomas more than once, and am in the process of digesting other things I've come across (some, but not all, of which are those pages that you linked to).

I must say, Ed, that that your GOT thread shows a side of you that I have not seen anywhere else in the religion forum.

The above quoted verse is the very one that says the truth to me; we ARE born again, and our spirits are just fine; they are simply in school. But we will all graduate, and have enough chances to get it right, even if it takes 100s of them. You don't "run out of chances", it's a self-paced study of the cosmic sort.

In the end, we are freed from worry, from greed, from the fear of oblivion, and can know the ultimate rest and bliss which we can't even understand. We can know that it's there, and the truth, but it 'passeth understanding', and so we simply need to believe it and have faith in it and be nice to each other.

Are you saying you believe in reincarnation? If you recognize the GOT, why do you insist that people return to the Bible? I have read several of Frank Herbert's Dune books. I have one more to go. I got a lot out of them. I don't have to read every single one and all of the numerous offshoots from his son offering up background materials, histories of who begat who and all that to appreciate the things I understood from one of them.

The 'way is narrow' does not mean we won't all find it. It's there. We will all find it, no matter how long we wander along this side of the fence looking for it.

I think of it just now as a maze; we can take a long time getting through the maze, or we can manage it quicker.
I suppose some souls get lost in it for many, many lifetimes; others, by way of intuition, or inner guidance, or better decision-making, get through it more rapidly.

Does that make sense?
Anyway, I'm glad I looked at your thread; and I'm glad you changed your Avatar and name . Much more welcoming. Just so you know. It did have that particular tone and imagery that turns seekers who've been burned before quite off.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Told ya

Yep.!
Believed ya


Holdin' up okay so far....
where did dewey go?

reply to post by wildtimes

. . . where did dewey go?

I guess I have a different way of looking at the whole thing, where I am trying to figure out the bigger milieu where these ideas came from. I ordered a book last night from Amazon (a used copy) which is close to being what would be classified as a popular book, but not quite, The View from Nowhere, which gets into the philosophy of the objective view versus the subjective view. The goal of the Stoics was to see yourself (looking "from above") in a bigger picture which includes other people, and this is how you live properly in this world. This book was recommended by the author of this other book I am reading, Paul and the Stoics.
ETA: while on the subject of books, I also ordered a book which just bankrupted me (also used, half off the new price), which is a highly technical 500 page break-down of a two page letter called, Philippians. The explanation for that being that this seems to be the best example of where this concept comes in (looking from above), among the letters of Paul in the NT.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Still would like your opinions and thoughts as I carry on, unless you're too immersed in other things (I know that feeling).
I just ordered two books myself. Just a moment ago...
amazon also, with free shipping.
Notovitch's The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ
and
The Fifth Gospel: New Evidence from the Tibetan, Sanskrit, Arabic, Persian and Urdu Sources About the Historical Life of Jesus Christ After the Crucifixion
By: Fida Hassnain, Dahan Levi

Looking forward to both of them....
and sitting in my sunny window (or better yet outside on the patio) while reading.

reply to post by wildtimes

Looking forward to both of them...

Someone (maybe you) brought those up in an earlier thread, so a while back I looked through all the preview pages on Amazon for all the books related to that subject. Kind of interesting but I don't feel a strong compulsion to buy any though I did put a couple in my Amazon wish list. (not that I have one, I have it broken up into 26 lists, divided by subject matter)
I think all the Eastern influence on Jesus can be accounted for by Zoroastrianism and some off-shoot sects that were very close by, including some that have been historically labeled as Gnostic.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by wildtimes

 

One thing I can relate to this, from my own search, is a critical realization that could save you some time here. I have read most of the Dead Sea Scrolls (700 pages). I have read most of the Nag Hammadi Library, as well as extensive study in the Hermetic sources. After many years of study, the focus comes right back to the Bible. The other texts do not agree with the Bible or with each other. You can find parts and some books that are very related by context, but the overall scope of the Gnostic texts represent false leads toward answers that are already provided in the Bible. There is great value in knowing these perspectives, but nothing about the Gospel changes. Jesus is still the center of salvation and the way to life beyond this realm of existence.

"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." (Luke 11:52)

The mysticism and mystery of the Bible are two sides of the same coin. For many Christians, the flip side of this Denarius goes unnoticed and misunderstood. The mystery of the coin is partly seen and unseen, while the flipside of this coin lays veiled in the symbols of the same mystery unseen. Realizing the value of the coin, a holy grail of intrigue, requires ONE direction for true reward.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4)

The grail in question is a vessel of sorts. The cup I speak of is the burden we bear. The soul willingly carries this cup for the love of the one who owns it by right. The journey is the “Excelsior” cry of the ever-upward work to lead the world toward truth. While the inside of this cup is kept prayerfully reverent and humble, the outside of the cup exemplifies the likeness of God, a picture of resolute character and purpose. The battle cry is not one of might or power, but of strength of spirit rooted in truth.

First Article in this link.

The secret of Gnosticism is found in this link above. With God, it's always about our hearts. Jesus knows all men already. Christ points the way to fulfill the law. The entire point of salvation is that Christ accomplished what no person has yet done on their own. Through Christ, we can all inherit this salvation. Love is the key to the lost truth above. It's been suppressed by the "experts" in the law. The experts are the ones who manipulate the law by magic and ritual. Gnosticism moves toward this side of manipulation (esoteric), while church dogma moves to the other extreme of exoteric practice. Jesus said the path is narrow and between.

Exoteric ritual takes for self and is represented in materialism and excess. Esoteric seeks the same through spirituality. With Christian faith, the focus is not on us, but on Christ. His work on the cross represents the only way to salvation. Love is the key. Love can only give. All other religious and spiritual pursuits take, but lead to the same conclusions when examined. Love is the key to the first verse above.

edit on 23-2-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)

Is there any hope for someone who doesn't find Christ in their lifetime? I need to know. I know what the correct anwer is but I can't live with it.

reply to post by Hillarie

Is there any hope for someone who doesn't find Christ in their lifetime? I need to know. I know what the correct anwer is but I can't live with it.

There is a heart and there is the mind.
The heart can make you do things while your mind may be wondering and asking questions.
If the right things are being done,
then the heart is at work regardless of where your head might be at.
The actions show if Jesus is there or not and one may not even realize what had gotten into them.

reply to post by Hillarie

Is there any hope for someone who doesn't find Christ in their lifetime? I need to know. I know what the correct anwer is but I can't live with it.

FInding Christ isn't actually that hard... staying on his path can get tricky though

Just do as he asked, and you will feel him within.

If ye love me, keep my commandments....

Nuff said

Originally posted by wildtimes

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Told ya

Yep.!
Believed ya

Holdin' up okay so far....
where did dewey go?

As i've said, i'll be around...

This is the first gnostic thread i've seen that wasn't destroyed by invading christians...

Perhaps thats because the OP is a woman, and as we all know... "hell hath no fury like a womans scorn"

I was sleeping this morning and I was watching this fish flopping around because somehow it got pulled out of whatever it had been swimming in earlier. I was not sure if I should do something, or what exactly I should do if I chose to intervene. I ignored it and later this fish was talking to me telepathically and was telling me if I did not do something, it would be soon dead. In my dream, I put some water in the bathtub in this fantasy house I was living in, meaning it did not correlate with any real house I ever lived in but seemed familiar enough to me in the circumstances, and put the fish in it and watched it to make sure it was going to be ok. I wondered (while still asleep) why I would have such a weird annoying dream of a (mentally) talking fish. I got up once I was awake, and went outside and looked at my cat's water dish and there was a dead lizard in it. I was quite horrified at the idea that it was sending me messages which went to no avail.
ETA: I'm going to keep that dish filled all the way up so this does not happen again, in case anyone is as horrified as I am.